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MrIndifference
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 7/24/2005 1:48 AM (GMT -6)

In the Garden of Eden, God put two trees at its center; the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life. The very essence of the two trees represents the freedom of choice in which God gave us out of his love and grace. The Tree of Life is mankind in perfect unity with God, living in the life in which we were originally created. Living with the two trees at the center of the Garden, we were given the opportunity for freedom to choose, but that freedom was never meant to be acted upon. Our accessibility to our freedom of choice is the product of disobedience. By acting on our freedom of choice we were in fact exercising our independence from the body of the Trinity by saying we could make better decisions for our lives than God could. The Tree of Knowledge is the symbol of our disobedience. We know good and evil because we experience it, but we judge it based on what we see as pain and pleasure. When Christ died on the cross, he was in fact nailed to the Tree of Knowledge. His blood covered and destroyed the very source of our free will. Of course we still have the ability to choose, but the choices are now living in a loving relationship with Christ Jesus, eating from the ToL or complete and utter starvation for there truly is no other source of food since the ToK has been and is being destroyed.

I was watching Matrix Revolutions a couple weeks ago and a line struck me. It was a scene between the Oracle and Neo. They were talking about how no one can see past a choice we don’t understand. The question that popped into my head was “What is beyond our choices?” Let’s rephrase that. If we were to take the concept of sanctification to its most extreme, what do you think it would look like?

MrI. :|

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/26/2005 1:03 AM (GMT -6)

MrIndifference said...
In the Garden of Eden, God put two trees at its center; the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life. The very essence of the two trees represents the freedom of choice in which God gave us out of his love and grace. The Tree of Life is mankind in perfect unity with God, living in the life in which we were originally created. Living with the two trees at the center of the Garden, we were given the opportunity for freedom to choose, but that freedom was never meant to be acted upon. Our accessibility to our freedom of choice is the product of disobedience. By acting on our freedom of choice we were in fact exercising our independence from the body of the Trinity by saying we could make better decisions for our lives than God could. The Tree of Knowledge is the symbol of our disobedience. We know good and evil because we experience it, but we judge it based on what we see as pain and pleasure. When Christ died on the cross, he was in fact nailed to the Tree of Knowledge. His blood covered and destroyed the very source of our free will. Of course we still have the ability to choose, but the choices are now living in a loving relationship with Christ Jesus, eating from the ToL or complete and utter starvation for there truly is no other source of food since the ToK has been and is being destroyed.

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I was watching Matrix Revolutions a couple weeks ago and a line struck me. It was a scene between the Oracle and Neo. They were talking about how no one can see past a choice we don’t understand. The question that popped into my head was “What is beyond our choices?” Let’s rephrase that. If we were to take the concept of sanctification to its most extreme, what do you think it would look like?

Intriguing. I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here, but I'll take a stab at it. It sounds like you believe the original plan did not involve free will? Is that right? How could He create us with free will, but not intend that it be acted upon? We just made the wrong choice. The amazing thing to me is that He knows us so well that He must have known we would eventually choose the way we did, and we'd fall. At the very least He knew it was a possibility and was prepared for it, right? He knows each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility (open theism jargon).

When you say that "His blood covered and destroyed the very source of our free will," I am left feeling a bit bewildered. He created in His image, free will and all, right? It almost sounds like the original was "flawed."

And a question: What does eating from the TOL mean to you, mean for us now?

God bless,
Jo-Anne

If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

MrIndifference
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 7/26/2005 4:50 PM (GMT -6)

SoulPurpose: "It sounds like you believe the original plan did not involve free will?"

MrI: I believe that we were given free will from the very beginning. That free will was encapsulated in the two trees and our choice to either obey or disobey God. The point I was making was that as long as Adam and Eve walked in obedience, not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, their free will was untested. They had access to it, but they never truly excercised it up until the fall. Choice is always binary and the free will God was extending, I believe, was in our willingness to be obedience. It was relational. Adam and Eve were never intended to disobey God and out of their obedience, they were willingly giving up their freedom of choice.

When Christ died on the cross, he destroyed the tree of knowledge for those who walk in his precepts and ways. We can and quite often do disobey, but an integral part of our relationship with God is our willingness to give up our free will as a sacrifice. What we are giving up is our ability and desire to disobey God and in turn live the abundantly full life with Christ Jesus.

That make better sense?

SoulPurpose: "And a question: What does eating from the TOL mean to you, mean for us now?"

MrI: I see the eating of the Tree of Life as the marriage covenant between me as a part of the church which is Christs bride, and Christ Jesus.

MrI. :|

Dragon Chaser
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 70

Posted 7/26/2005 7:56 PM (GMT -6)

If you look at Genesis figuratively instead of just actual history it does bring an interesting perspective. It seems to me that the two Trees represent spiritual life and death. One of those trees represents eternal life in servitude to God. We can eat of that tree through “faith” but at the consequence of being subject to God’s supremacy for all eternity by obeying his every command in spite of our “free will”. The other tree, for which is forbidden, is seeking knowledge that should only be reserved for God, in spite of our “free will”. That knowledge I would assume is what God reserved, as his Ideal of what is “good” and what his Ideal of “evil” is. The serpent ala. Satan, I’ve also noticed that the Hebrew word for serpent could also mean “bright light” was God’s greatest creation. It would seem to me that Satan has his own Idea of what is good and evil, or objects to what God deems good and evil. What I understand about Satan’s perspective, self-servitude is what is good and “faith in God is less attractive if one has power. The story goes on to say that Satan (bright light) tempted Eve with an “alternative” that is Power. Knowledge is power but with it brings pride and envy, hence the fall of the Arch Angel. Seeking knowledge and power seemed to bring shame upon Adam and Eve in the presence of God, which only seems to make sense.

Christ’s ministry seemed to evolve around humbling oneself and servitude. You can seek all the knowledge, power, and glory you want, but it will only distance you from life with God. If you truly love God and have faith in him you will not care about having his knowledge or power.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:17
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

John R. Heys

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/28/2005 12:09 AM (GMT -6)

Dragon Chaser said...
If you look at Genesis figuratively instead of just actual history it does bring an interesting perspective. It seems to me that the two Trees represent spiritual life and death. One of those trees represents eternal life in servitude to God. We can eat of that tree through “faith” but at the consequence of being subject to God’s supremacy for all eternity by obeying his every command in spite of our “free will”. The other tree, for which is forbidden, is seeking knowledge that should only be reserved for God, in spite of our “free will”. That knowledge I would assume is what God reserved, as his Ideal of what is “good” and what his Ideal of “evil” is. The serpent ala. Satan, I’ve also noticed that the Hebrew word for serpent could also mean “bright light” was God’s greatest creation. It would seem to me that Satan has his own Idea of what is good and evil, or objects to what God deems good and evil. What I understand about Satan’s perspective, self-servitude is what is good and “faith in God is less attractive if one has power. The story goes on to say that Satan (bright light) tempted Eve with an “alternative” that is Power. Knowledge is power but with it brings pride and envy, hence the fall of the Arch Angel. Seeking knowledge and power seemed to bring shame upon Adam and Eve in the presence of God, which only seems to make sense.

Christ’s ministry seemed to evolve around humbling oneself and servitude. You can seek all the knowledge, power, and glory you want, but it will only distance you from life with God. If you truly love God and have faith in him you will not care about having his knowledge or power.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:17
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

I understand that one was a date tree (Eve had a "date" with a date.) Ok, not so funny, but couldn't help it!

I've wondered if we were ever intended to judge. If we had no knowledge of Good and Evil, we wouldn't be in the predicaments that we find ourselves in constantly, the conflcts ... But I suppose it just wasn't necessary then and may be now because of the fall. Which brings me to another question: What is the difference between judgement and discernment? I have a head cold; my thoughts are a bit fuzzy, and I think I better quit before you run me outa town!

Jo-Anne

If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/28/2005 12:11 AM (GMT -6)

MrIndifference said...
SoulPurpose: "It sounds like you believe the original plan did not involve free will?"

MrI: I believe that we were given free will from the very beginning. That free will was encapsulated in the two trees and our choice to either obey or disobey God. The point I was making was that as long as Adam and Eve walked in obedience, not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, their free will was untested. They had access to it, but they never truly excercised it up until the fall. Choice is always binary and the free will God was extending, I believe, was in our willingness to be obedience. It was relational. Adam and Eve were never intended to disobey God and out of their obedience, they were willingly giving up their freedom of choice.

When Christ died on the cross, he destroyed the tree of knowledge for those who walk in his precepts and ways. We can and quite often do disobey, but an integral part of our relationship with God is our willingness to give up our free will as a sacrifice. What we are giving up is our ability and desire to disobey God and in turn live the abundantly full life with Christ Jesus.

That make better sense?

SoulPurpose: "And a question: What does eating from the TOL mean to you, mean for us now?"

MrI: I see the eating of the Tree of Life as the marriage covenant between me as a part of the church which is Christs bride, and Christ Jesus.

Thank you. I think I understand a little better. So, was free will a gift? I think it is.

Jo-Anne

If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 7/28/2005 10:09 AM (GMT -6)

Were they not free to obey, just as much as they were free to disobey? They COULD have exercised their free will to obey, or else the whole command to avoid the one tree is patently nonsensical.

My 2c,

John

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

JohnE

http://www.revivaltheology.net

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/28/2005 2:48 PM (GMT -6)

JEE said...
Were they not free to obey, just as much as they were free to disobey? They COULD have exercised their free will to obey, or else the whole command to avoid the one tree is patently nonsensical.

My 2c,

John

Thought I'd share this quote with you; it's good for a smile. It's from Donald Miller's Searching For God Knows What: "My friend Penny's dad says he thinks God was angry for a while after the Fall, then got over it, sent His Son, and now is pretty well adjusted and forgiving."

Jo-Anne

If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 7/28/2005 3:54 PM (GMT -6)

Your quote is not far off...

II Corth 5 : 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19.that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

peace, don

^{The world's perfect, wouldn't change a thing.}

JEE
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 7/28/2005 4:44 PM (GMT -6)

SoulPurpose said...

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

JohnE

http://www.revivaltheology.net

Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690

Posted 7/28/2005 8:54 PM (GMT -6)

Mr I.: The point I was making was that as long as Adam and Eve walked in obedience, not eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, their free will was untested. They had access to it, but they never truly excercised it up until the fall.

VFG: They didn't necessarily have to do something in order for their free will to be tested. I'd say if they had free will from the start, it was being tested from the start. So I'd disagree with the "untested" part and I'd also disagree with the "they never truly exercised it" part. If they had free will, then they were exercising it the whole time, whether or not they chose evil. And walking in obedience is still a testing of free will (perhaps until the character solidification part kicks in!)

If you're going to be skeptical, be fair and be skeptical of skepticism.

MrIndifference
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 7/28/2005 10:17 PM (GMT -6)

I would say that you are right in a sense, their obedience would be the fruit of the testing. At the same time, is it truly a test if there is no real temptation? If you have never smoked a day in your life and have absolutely no desire to smoke, would I really be testing you if I set a lighter and a pack of Camels on the table in front of you and told you not to smoke them? You would in a sense be acting in obedience, but that obedience would be out of a lack of desire instead of the desire to heed my prohibition.

Here is a definition for obedience: "the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person"
-Worldnet Dictionary-

MrI. :|

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