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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 9/8/2005 12:49 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Hello DNOTS,
No, I don’t think God’s character changed between the Old and New Testaments. From my understanding, God is intrinsically good. Yes, the Spirit of God is love (which basically states God is love). Love is an aspect of His goodness. God is also just – justice requires goodness, thus His justice is an aspect of His goodness. God, of course, can exercise His justice any time He decides, He doesn’t need anyone’s permission for when He can exercise His justice. Now justice doesn’t compromise God’s love, and love doesn’t compromise God’s justice. If God sees evil being done, He should stop it, right? …especially if it’s hurting the spiritual condition of His creatures (us).
However, He may let things go on a bit longer if it will result in a greater good. That’s where I trust Him and His omniscience and omnibenevolence (being all-knowing and all-good). There are many verses where Jesus is judging others, such as the Pharisees, the townspeople who were ready to stone the adulterous woman, and Paul judged others such as where he said, “If anyone is teaching you another gospel, let him be eternally condemned” (a statement to not be taken as lightly as we might interpret it today). God is always in favor of protecting those who love Him and ridding the world of things that are evil, but as Romans 8:28 goes, basically He turns evil for the greater good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes.
I hope this helps. Sure, certain aspects of His character may be highlighted more in various books in the Bible, but it doesn’t show a change of character.
Oh, also about the hurricane… people may say that’s “God’s judgment”. I say, we’re not in a position to know if it’s His judgment or not. We do know there’s a spiritual war going on out there, and Satan’s known as “prince of the air”… so it could be either God or Satan. If it’s God, then I’d say He intends it for good. If it’s Satan, then I’d say he intends it for evil, but God can turn a lot of good out of it.
Maybe someone else will be able to give a better answer than this one. Hope everything’s going well. 
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Element
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 9/12/2005 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | In a lot of Christian circles, doomsayers and false prophets are jumping on this opportunity to proclaim that this disaster is the work of God, his judgements, etc., and some even go as far as claiming this is the first sign that the apocalyspe is coming. I cannot really express fully how irritating this is to me. To equate God's actions with the weather (or any other natural process) is the same thing the ancient pagans did when they thought the mountain gods were "angry" everytime a volcanoe rumbled. Or that the God of thunder was pissed off everytime the sky quaked. Its superstition, based purely on scientific ignorance. These people that say God was behind hurricane Katrina might as well believe little fairies dance with invisible elves atop needles. The fact is, hurricane Katrina did exactly what God designed all hurricanes to do - and that is bring the warm air up from the equator and disperse it in the northern hemisphere so that our global temperate climates are made possible. Hurricanes have been hitting the coastal areas of North America for millions of years. If hurricanes did not exist, the polar ice caps would descend far into Canada and we would be living in an artic wasteland. A virtual ice age.
Its unfortunate that humans happen to populate and congregate along coastal areas, but God is not responsible for that. Its unfortunate that so many lose their lives in natural disasters. But God does not force people to live in danger zones, like near volcanoes (like Mt. Vesuvius) fault lines (in CA), or near coastal areas. People do that on their own. There are plenty of safe places to live throughout the world, so its not like we have no options. But regardless, its still sad to see so much death and suffering..... and it is even sadder to see self-righteous people attribute these unfortunate events to God, as if God is some twisted sadist that loves violently killing people via hurricanes. Gimme a break! The God I believe in is much bigger than that.
~Element~Post Edited (Element) : 9/12/2005 11:42:31 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 9/12/2005 1:07 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi Element,
Yeah, I agree – people know most of the potential dangers of living in certain areas. So when we live in certain areas, we should always take that into consideration.
And regarding God’s judgment, I fully agree that it’s wrong for people to attribute that to “God’s judgment”… that’s why I wrote “we’re not in a position to know if it is or isn’t”… thus people shouldn’t blindly attribute hurricanes and other disasters as being a judgment of God. Thanks for your input!
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 9/12/2005 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hey John,
True, true. Good points - God does reserve the right due to His position to, as you rightly say, mete out temporal judgment in the world.
And regarding your last sentence, heh, very true, (while wiping my forehead). Whew!
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/12/2005 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
So you are relieved that God has not smashed us all in violent deaths.
Yes. Would you rather He had?
And this is a God you call "Father"?
Yes.
What kind of parent threatens to KILL and/or eternally torment their children of it they disobey?
The Bible is clear that not everyone is a child of God:
1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
The Bible is even more clear that the finally unrepentant will all be justly punished. I'm sure you know where to find that in the Bible. In His righteous role as Creator, Sustainer, Moral Governor & Judge of all the Universe, by definition, He MUST be a God who justly punishes sin and rewards righteousness. Were He not a God who righteously judges sin with perfect benevolence, He himself would not be righteous, good, or benevolent at all. The fact that He's so patient with you and me gives us great reason to worship and praise Him. I know I certainly deserve nothing but suffering, death, & hell.
Blessings,
John
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
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DNOTS Survivor
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 9/12/2005 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | This is what I find so difficult about faith.....it takes so much darn faith!!! I have to pick a side and sell myself on it if I hope not to go crazy with the bantering that goes on in my head. There are so many different perspectives, all well supported by the Bible. UGH!!
I was believing that if I see Jesus, I see the Father, therefore, God doesn't cause bad junk to happen, but instead allows it. However, In order to buy that, I have to figure out how a God who sent people into war, flooded the earth, and caused various plagues, etc. did that out of Love.....doesn't seem very loving to me.
Heavy sigh.....sometimes I wish I had been left in ignorant bliss when I didn't know enough to ask the questions. | | Back to Top | | |
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Element
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 9/12/2005 3:12 PM (GMT -6) | | JEE,
Thanks for your responses. Your're answers, however, continue to repeat the same assumption - that violence, killing, and eternal torment are "just" reactions to the temporal sins of frail humans. That just because God is God, he somehow has the divine "right" to commit these acts. That Might makes RIGHT. I have many serious questions about those assumptions.
What is the motivation for living in love/holiness? According to the Bible, the motivation for morality is FEAR. The fear of God - Serve God or fry in hell. Love God or else he will KILL you, or in some other way make you suffer. But that is nothing short of "coercion" via threats of violence. It's actually a very human concept; and a facist one at that. Would the infinite creator of the universe be so egotistical, self-consumed and irrational? Would an infinitely wise Being need to stoop to such barbaric levels in order to resolve problems? The concept of "violence solves problems" is an inherently HUMAN concept, which many unenlightened souls have projected ONTO their gods throughout time. The Bible writers were no exception.
In regards to the basis of morality, there is a far better alternative than fear, threats of violence, and coericion. If we truly come to a full understanding that God is LOVE; the interconnectedness of all things, and that all things are sacred expressions of God's thoughts and image, we realize that doing harm to anyone or anything is in effect harming not only a part of God, but a part of ourselves as well. What we do affects us all, just like the butterfly effect. The decisions we make everyday can have a ripple effect throughout time. We don't need divine threats of violence to value good and holiness. Good is good, for goodness sake. It possesses an inherent value that promotes oneness, love, survival, happiness, order, and pleasure. Likewise, Sin (unloving actions) also possess an inherent value... one that promotes suffering, anger, isolation, vengence, disorder, animosity, separation, etc. In this regard, the principle of "sowing and reaping" becomes the real basis for morality - If we sow goodness, we reap it's positive energy in our lives. If we sow sin, we will reap it's negative energy in our lives. This understanding is perfectly in line with the other laws of the universe - for every action there is a reaction; for every cause there in an effect. If we adopt this model for morality, we do good - for goodness' sake. We walk in love and promote goodness because it positively impacts our lives, not because God will KILL us if we don't. The God I believe in is is not in the business of killing or punishing frail human beings. He's left that job to us. Every single day, our actions either bless us or curse us. Everyday, we create our own heavens and hells right here on earth, based on the types of decisions we make, and the types of seeds we sow in our lives.
So this is the epistemological/theological direction I am coming from here.
~Element~ | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/12/2005 3:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Just quickly, 'cause I gotta run...
Sin is not in the least about frailty; the Bible nowhere reveals God as punishing people for frailty or humanness. If human frailty = sin, then Jesus himself was a sinner in that he was certainly human. To the contrary, sin is a willful transgression of God's law, from Genesis to Revelation. (From what I gather you seem to want to say that sin is more like an incurable disease acquired by sheer accident, but my view denies such Augustinian concepts as that).
As I've stated many times on this board in the past, I don't agree that "might makes right," or that God's judgment is arbitrary or capricious. Given God's benevolent governance of the moral universe, Hell is the highest good that God can provide willful, unrepentant moral rebels with.
I also agree that fear alone is not the primary motivator for righteous living.
I think we just fundamentally disagree on the justness of Hell, and on the authority of scripture, which I can understand, really.
Blessings,
John. PS: You said:
We walk in love and promote goodness because it positively impacts our lives
So we should walk in unselfish goodwill (love) for a selfish motive?
Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://www.revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 9/12/2005 3:31:02 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Element
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 9/12/2005 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | "So we should walk in unselfish goodwill (love) for a selfish motive?"
If we fully understand the concept that we are all interconnected, we understand that what we do affects us all. So what positively benefits us also positively benefits others, and vice versa.
Doing good because it means God will let you live in a blissful heaven for all eternity, give you mansions, and even give you eternal crowns of glory - now THAT could be considered a "selfish" motive too, if you choose to look at it that way.
~Element~ | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/12/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | |
Element said...
We disagree on the justness of Hell because I cannot fathom what type of moral logic could possibly justify the idea of eternally tormenting sentient beings.
The apparent conclusion is, you would have a hard time to fathom God’s amazing and saving grace too.
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/12/2005 4:30:29 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Element
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 9/12/2005 4:55 PM (GMT -6) | | If the scenarios is - amazing grace because God saves souls from His own torment......then no, I don't believe in that. I don't believe there is anything graceful or amazing about a God who creates a state of hellish torment, and then "saves" people from it. Thats kind of weird. It would be like me creating a pit full of deadly spikes in my backyard, then asking you to praise me for my amazing grace because I saved you from my own deadly pit. Its kind of silly, don't you think?
~Element~Post Edited (Element) : 9/12/2005 4:59:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/12/2005 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | |
Element said...If the scenarios is - amazing grace because God saves souls from His own torment......then no, I don't believe in that. I don't believe there is anything graceful or amazing about a God who creates a state of hellish torment, and then "saves" people from it. Thats kind of weird. It would be like me creating a pit full of deadly spikes in my backyard, then asking you to praise me for my amazing grace because I saved you from my own deadly pit. Its kind of silly, don't you think?
The next logical conclusion would be to deem the passion of the Christ unnecessary. Furthermore, it wouldn’t be very loving of a father to stage his son’s brutal death, all for naught. Its kind of silly, don't you think?
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/12/2005 9:20:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/13/2005 1:25 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Element said: And though I am not terribly dogmatic about most theological issues, I think it could be considered blasphemy for people to ascribe God with these atrociously barbaric attributes.
John replies: Your posts so far appear rather dogmatic to me, honestly. But in any case, is it your assertion that the Bible blasphemes God?
Element said: You mention biblical authority.....In Genesis, didn't God already take care of the sin issue by making physical death the punishment for sin? The wages of sin is death. That's why death entered the world. So it would seem that our physical deaths already satisfy the divine mandate for justice. To add this element of eternal firey torment, gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, lakes of fire, etc., is to take it the whole thing an excessively barbaric and unnecessary extreme. And it nullifies God's original mandate that physical death is the penalty for sin.
John replies: It is definitely not the case that physical death is scripturally the final punishment for sin. If so, then Hitler received no more punishment for his crimes against humanity than anyone else. Would that be just? Physical death is indeed a consequence of Adam's sin (which is actually a gracious limitation of sin's destructive influence, but physical death is not per se the true punishment for sin as revealed in the scriptures--spiritual death is--with the ultimate consequence being eternal death for the person who dies physically while yet in his sins (in a state of spiritual death).
With that said, I do want to address a couple of points you bring up, if I may:
1. If we are free to dispense with the Holy scriptures, then it really doesn't matter what we believe, does it? I have just as much authority for saying reincarnation is true as you have for denying the justness of Hell, if the Bible is considered unreliable as the final rule of faith and practice. I realize you've probably already made that journey down the slippery slope of relativism, judging from your responses in this thread, but in any case I wanted to respond to that particular issue--if we don't agree on the authority of scripture, we won't agree on much of anything theologically. I have no interest in trying to argue with anyone who's mind is closed on a subject, so it may just be best for me to walk away from the conversation at this point.
2. While I do not deny the cause-and-effect "reap what you sow" aspect of the reality we all must face, it seems to me that so many, even professing Christians, these days, want to essentially take God out of the mix entirely. And that is precisely what it seems to me that your take on the reap-what-you-sow thing amounts to. Where I would agree is that I certainly have no problem affirming that a lot of the suffering that befalls us is indeed self-inflicted. I would even go so far as to say that heaven and hell are ultimately chosen by each of us by the attitude of openness or closedness to God that we have.
However, where we obviously differ is that I readily admit to and wholeheartedly embrace the concept of a Supreme Being who has the final authority to judge all, "who will judge everyone according to his own works." If I didn't believe in this, I honestly can't think of any rhyme or reason there might be to life, death, suffering, or hope for the future.
Blessings,
John
Ezekiel 18:25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
http://www.revivaltheology.netPost Edited (JEE) : 9/13/2005 1:32:15 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 9/13/2005 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | |
Element said...
"So we should walk in unselfish goodwill (love) for a selfish motive?"
If we fully understand the concept that we are all interconnected, we understand that what we do affects us all. So what positively benefits us also positively benefits others, and vice versa.
Doing good because it means God will let you live in a blissful heaven for all eternity, give you mansions, and even give you eternal crowns of glory - now THAT could be considered a "selfish" motive too, if you choose to look at it that way.
That's just the thing--I don't believe any degree of selfish motivation is consistent with true benevolence; the two concepts are exact opposites. 1 Cor. 13. True love seeks not its own. I unequivocally affirm my absolute unworthiness to ever enter God's heaven or to receive anything good from His hand, no matter how much good I may ever be able to do. If I end up in hell, it will be only what I deserve.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
JohnE
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Element
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Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 9/13/2005 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
John replies: Your posts so far appear rather dogmatic to me, honestly. But in any case, is it your assertion that the Bible blasphemes God?
I think that facism, tribalism, conditional love, torment, killings, genocide, jealousy, anger, and violence are all manifestations of the sinful side of our human nature. The bible writers attribute all of these terrible traits to GOD. To do so, in my opinion, could be considered an act of blasphemy.
John replies: It is definitely not the case that physical death is scripturally the final punishment for sin. If so, then Hitler received no more punishment for his crimes against humanity than anyone else. Would that be just?
If God has inifinite wisdom and can see all ends, certainly he would have thought about people like Hitler when he instituted physical death as the penalty for sin. Perhaps this question of your's is better directed towards God. I think that eternally tormenting Hitler is certainly not a "just" reaction either. Hitler never "eternally" tormented anyone himself, so such a punishment would not fit the crime.
Physical death is indeed a consequence of Adam's sin (which is actually a gracious limitation of sin's destructive influence, but physical death is not per se the true punishment for sin as revealed in the scriptures--spiritual death is--with the ultimate consequence being eternal death for the person who dies physically while yet in his sins (in a state of spiritual death).
The flaw in this logic is people do not ONLY sin, but they also do many acts of kindness and love as well. I think it would be wonderful if people like Mother Theresa did not die, because allowing them to live and continue their works of benevolence would be an act of grace. Back to the point......If spiritual death is actually the penalty for sin, why wasn't this implemented at the fall of Adam? The Genesis account says nothing about "spiritual death", only physical. Did God change his mind later on?
1. If we are free to dispense with the Holy scriptures, then it really doesn't matter what we believe, does it? I have just as much authority for saying reincarnation is true as you have for denying the justness of Hell, if the Bible is considered unreliable as the final rule of faith and practice.
What we believe does matter because our beliefs eventually lead to actions, and our actions affect us all. Think of 9/11.....and the terrorist attacks. The beliefs of those terrorist led them to commit actions that negatively affected us all. Regarding "authority", I think that ideas regarding God, religion, spirituality, the afterlife, etc., are all totally subjective. I don't believe that truth is dictated through holy books or the exclusivity of holy men. I believe that each one of us is uniquely and equally connected to God by the fact that we are all expressions of his image, and existing within His universe where His presence binds together every single atom. Our bodies are made up of trillions of these atoms, so that means that God is right here, right now, within all of us. We are all connected to Him. I don't believe he is a jealous glowing guy sitting on a throne off in yonder space. Rather, he is the everpresent personal force that holds together the very fabric of existence. Therefore, we all have direct access to God every second of every day and we can discover the "truth" of God by searching within ourselves and listening to how God is speaking to us everyday. He speaks through the daily events of our lives, the people in our lives, the ebb and flow of life, the song of morning birds, the passion of love, the laughter of children, the nighttime breeze, the starry firmament, and the morning sunrises. All of these things are God's speech to us and we can hear his voice speaking if we listen carefully. God also speaks through our times of suffering and affliction. The idea that God dictates his truth exclusively through a "book", to me, is a very narrow and archaic view. I choose to adopt a larger view of God.
But back to your question about spiritual "authority".....There is no empirical way for anyone to prove any spiritual idea is actually true. There are all issues of personal faith. So in that respect, my personal faith is no more or less valid than your's, or the Apostle Paul. We are all merely human beings trying to understand our existence and the mystery that surrounds us, and share these truths with others. We are doing our best to connect with our Creator and understand what our purpose is in this universe. Our spiritual beliefs can become dangerous when we take absolutist views and begin thinking that our spiritual beliefs are OBJECTIVE FACT, and not merely subjective faith. When religious believers begin thinking their religious beliefs are objective fact, planes get flown into buildings.....barbaric "crusades" get commissioned and people die.
I have no interest in trying to argue with anyone who's mind is closed on a subject, so it may just be best for me to walk away from the conversation at this point.
I am open to the idea that truth may be found anywhere, including the Bible. If you believe truth is only found in the Bible, then it is YOUR mind that is closed, not mine. Our journey through this life will teach us far more than any "book" ever will. I believe the Bible is a mixed bag. There are a lot of truth principles and inspiring sayings......as well as a lot of mythology and barbaric concepts that were common among the ancient cultures of those days. In this regard, I eat the meat and spit out the bones. Weed out the good from the bad. Discipher which words are clearly the words of ancient men, and which words contain inspired truth.
However, where we obviously differ is that I readily admit to and wholeheartedly embrace the concept of a Supreme Being who has the final authority to judge all, "who will judge everyone according to his own works." If I didn't believe in this, I honestly can't think of any rhyme or reason there might be to life, death, suffering, or hope for the future.
But I have not removed God from the sowing and reaping principle, as you suggested. Let me explain.....God created all the laws of existence, right? He created all the laws of causality, including the sowing and reaping principle. So if our sinful actions punish us, this is by God's design. He set it up this way. So God IS involved with these judgements because we are experiencing the consequences of our decisions based on the rules that he created! God's laws of consequence are His way of rewarding and/or judging us. Compare this idea to our physical births ---- the law of procreation and reproduction are God's way of CREATING us. He is still our Creator, even if it is via a secondary process that continues to run on its own, without His constant personal intervention. The same principle applies sowing/reaping, and moral consequences of behaviors. God is working through secondary processes.
~Element~Post Edited (Element) : 9/13/2005 12:29:32 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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