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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 10/25/2003 5:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | I read/skimmed the article.
I think it would benefit from more factual support for its arguments.
The best history of "evangelical" theology done by a non-evangelical is "The remaking of Evangelical Theology" by Gary Dorrien, who is a Anglican Social-Gospellist.
I share similar misgivings about the religious "right". I think there leaders are firmly in the pockets of the Republican Party and that most of their political calls on issues are poorly-made. I do not share the view that all "fundamentalist"(vaguely-defined) involvement in politics is wrong. The separation of Church/State means their autonomy, not their segregation. So long as they don't try to "capture" the state and respect the democratic process, there is nothing wrong with it. Although, pragmatically, expressing one's legislative priorities in terms that don't require someone to share your faith to agree with you tend to help one achieve one's goals better.
In particular, I get angry when I think of all of the media-attention that was given to Clinton's indiscretions when no attention was being given to the fact that came out at the same time that tobacco company executives had lied to the gov't regarding the addictiveness and harmfulness of their product.
I don't really have anything at this point to say about neo-paganism. I have a friend over at TheoWeb who was a neo-pagan, who I could invite to give us all his own account of this faith.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/25/2003 6:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, I didn't read the whole article because it just didn't hold my interest and was very long. But, from what I read I'd simply say
that if I were a fundamentalist, as the author defines the term, I might be offended. But, I'm not a fundamentalist. My faith is driving by love, not the "unholy Trinity" of "hate, fear and anger."
Having said this, it seemed to me that the author was a bit paranoid and inaccurate in assessing recent historical events. Actually, she sounded to me like many fundamentalists I've heard! .
As for "the weak believe, the wise observe"... well, UV., are you denying that you exercise faith when you deny Christ is Lord? or get on an airplane for that matter? Even to suspend judgment is an act of faith, for you can't KNOW with certainty that this is an appropriate response in this world. (Analogy: if you think your house MAY be on fire but are not SURE... suspending judgment would not be "wise." In fact, you're not really suspending judgment at all, because your ACTING (by not acting) on the HOPE that the house is not on fire.
I'm telling you, UV, your "house" is on fire. I can even give you evidence of this (e.g. my stuff at Duluth). To NOT act is as much (or more) an act of faith as to act on it.
think about it
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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upg validator
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 10/26/2003 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | |  Tim:
Okay, let's forget for a minute that you are splitting hairs. If I see an apple on the table, the apple is there. I don't BELIEVE the apple is there; I did not manufacture that it is there. I can see it, therefore it is there. That's called observing.
As for your second question: I can't answer it because I don't *believe* in Gods, exactly. But the English language is woefully inadequate to describe religious experiece, so the term "believe" will have to do. I "believe" in that which I experience first-hand; AND I give the benefit of the doubt to those who are sane who tell me that they have had religious experience(s).
Let me give you an example:
My best friend is a Nordic Heathen. She is akin to the Gods of Scandinavia. Because of our closeness, I have likewise had experiences in meeting some of her Gods. They weren't very profound to me, because they are not my kin, but they were there, and they were real. They were real to me because I had experience with them.
I *have* had VERY profound experiences with a number of MY Gods. These were also quite real because I experienced them.
On the other hand, I have had many Christians come up to me and tell me of the profound experience(s) they have had with Jesus Christ. I do not doubt that they have. I believe them. However, on a spiritual level, this is pretty much as insignificant to me as my best friend's conversation with Thor last week because it has nothing to do with me or my Gods. I think it is neat, and I am glad they had such a wonderful and powerful experience, but it doesn't touch my heart and soul the way an experience with my Gods does.
So...do my BELIEFS testify to acknowledgment of Jesus Christ? Yes, but he has nothing to do with me, my ancestors, my Gods, my Ways, or ancient Etruria. He is a foreign, not Universal, god to me. I think that it's great that he's there for those who want to follow him, but he is not of my people <shrugs>.
I am not sure I understand your question about Etruria and the Jews; could you elaborate?
Thanks!
Buona Zuru,
Aite Sec
Filomena Sophia | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 10/26/2003 1:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Hery upg validator,
The question about Etruria and the Jews was my ill attempt, wondering at what an Etruscan Reconstructionist is.
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upg validator
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 10/28/2003 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | philalethian:
Ah, the old switcheroo trick! When a Christian speaks of "hearing *od's voice" or "feeling the presence of Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit," they are praised for "having a religious experience." When a polytheist such as myself does the EXACT SAME THING, but with MY Gods, I am delusional, insane, and in need of anti-psychotic drugs? You can see how far the Christian brainwashing goes in this country when a NON-CHRISTIAN such as yourself douses me with personal insults rather than sticking to the debate at hand.
As for the specific Gods I am akin to:
Aite (god of the underworld)
Turan (goddess of beauty and transformation)
Atimiti (huntress and goddess of the moon; birth and death)
Vanth(s) (female demons who take the departed into the underworld)
Tin (head of all the gods)
Uni (Tin's consort and protector of women in cities)
Genius (protector of men--don't really deal too much with them, actually)
Tages (the great revealer)
***Just to name a FEW***
I sense that you're challenging me on my beliefs. Fair enough. Until very recently, scholars thought that the Etruscans were transports from Lydia; which they left due to a drought causing the crops to fail. Rather than going hungry, they (to make a long story short) sailed to a land of plenty in Central Italy where crops grew easily, etc. Further research has shown, though, that the Etruscans were some of the original native peoples of what is now called Italy.
I *have* been learning as much Etruscan as is possible. The entire language, as it existed in full during their reign on the Italian peninsula, no longer exists. Yet, I *am* able to decipher SOME of their writing, yes. Particularly since they borrowed a great deal of their alphabet from the Greeks.
Art isn't always represenative of the truth, Dana! (little art lesson 101) Why do some Christians keep crucifixes in their homes with Jesus' hands nailed rather than his wrists? Do I cut open birds? Only when we're having small game for supper <wink, wink> As for sheep intestines, no. It was only the priests who did this, and, sadly, there is no one to train me to be a priest anymore (not to mention the fact that I am a woman, and the priests, much like the Druid priests, were men). You must understand that, to the Etruscan way of thinking, NOTHING lasts forever and NOTHING remains the same. This is unlike the monotheistic way of thinking, which is generally less fluid: "God is always the same, and never-changing."
There are people in the Bologna region of Italy who still do things in the old ways; and I'll tell you what: sacrificing an animal is a lot more humane than factory farming. Does anyone ever ask the Jewish people this question: whether they still sacrifice animals? I doubt that most do. Yet, they don't get a bunch of uptight, pseudo-intellectuals questioning THEIR ways (probably because they're monotheists, and everyone thinks that they are the spiritual leaders of the human race, even if they hate them).
Sarcasm is not the way to get people to talk about their religion; besides, the deepest mysteries of my religion CAN'T be discussed, they can only be experienced.
By your last paragraph, I can see that you have grave doubts that I know my religion well. I can also see that you are trying to bait me. You are over-simplifying the Etruscans, their relationship and origin of their Gods, and their entire way of life. Are YOU aware that much of Western civilization was heavily influenced by the Etruscans? That they were the first known people to have aqueducts? You are trying to equate the Etruscans with the Greeks. Don't. The Etruscans saw things with an entirely different set of eyes than the Greeks did. In order to understand the Etruscan mindset, you have to throw away everything that you know about the Greeks and the Romans. The latter two groups saw things (including their relationship with their Gods and to each other) very differently than the former.
So, no, I don't worship the Greco-Roman Gods; as I don't have a tit for tat relationship with my Gods: I do what they d*mn*d well tell me to do...
Now, ask me some educated, intelligent questions about my religion, and MAYBE I'll answer 'em!
Signing off~
~Mena
Filomena Sophia | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 10/28/2003 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | | UPG: Are you here to proclaim or dialogue? Dana has challenged you. Surely you want to hold a position that is defensable. As such, I would assume you would want to take up her challenge. | | Back to Top | | |
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