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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/1/2005 8:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Recently, someone asked me to answer the question: "Does God test us....and if so, WHY does he?"
My response: "um, howabout I look into that and get back to you later" 
scripture seems to ascribe "testing" to God, to adversity and to the devil... so what's up? Anyone want to take a stab at this one?
Genesis 22: 1 - 24 - 1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, " Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 2 He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."
…9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
Ps 66:10 - For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.
Pr 27:21 - The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, so a person is tested by being praised.
Isa 48:10 - See, I have refined you, but not like silver; I have tested you in the furnace of adversity.
1Co 10:13 - No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.
Heb 4:15 - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin.
1Pe 1:7 - so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Re 2:10 -Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.Post Edited (selah) : 11/1/2005 7:28:08 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2005 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
I'd really like to see YOUR interpretations of this. I think things especially get weird when it's claimed that God can use both adversity AND the devil as means of testing us.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/1/2005 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't see any reason why God would test believers in the early church, but wouldn't test us.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/2/2005 10:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Corey,
Yes, I think trials are distinct from tests...but I'm not sure.
It seems that way in the Abraham example.
Do you think God orchestrates the trials that refine your faith? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/5/2005 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, I guess maybe I DO think God tests us.
supernatural manifestations of the Holy Sprit such as a word of knowledge, visions, callings, dreams, word of wisdom (etc.) typically come as pieces to a larger puzzle... When God gives them, he often remains silent on many (if not all!) of the details. The ball is left in our court -- allowing us to respond in faith. Yep. I think THIS is the way God tests us. Think about it. Wouldn't it make sense for him to operate this way? It's completely loving and doesn't smell of evil (or complicity in evil) at all. Maybe he even uses these moments to tune our ears so that we hear the HS guidance and counsel? Maybe tests just provide space for us to grow deeper intimately with God...
What do you think Corey? Meph?
love
selah
--
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone
~James 1:13. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 11/7/2005 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Ooooo, tests! I'm a teacher. I like tests!
I think God tests us. From a NT perspective, the difficulty is that "to test" and "to tempt" are both expressed with one and the same Greek word, the two were seen as two sides of the same coin. I mean, think about it. Every "temptation" really does "test" us. Life "exercises" our volition. When temptation is confronted and defeated, we grow strong. We're "tested." On the other hand, every "test" (even those not designed to get us to fall like, say, divine tests) are by defintion the occasion for possible failure, or temptation to failure. They really are related. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.
Jam. 1.2-4 "Count it joy when you fall into different kinds of 'peirsosmoi' (test/trials), knowing that the 'proof' (the result of 'tests') results in endurance...." and v. 12 "Happy is the one who endures 'peirosmos' (test/temptation/trial ?), because when tried, you will receive the crown of life."
But then vv. 13-14
"Let no one say when tempted/tried (when 'peirozomenon'), 'I am tempted of God' for God cannot be tempted with evil nor does he tempt anyone; but each is tempted when drawn away by one's own lusts and enticed."
So, by the time you get to vv. 13-14 you definitely have "temptation to sin" in view. God doesn't do that to people. He doesn't 'tempt them to sin'. But does that mean God never arranges "peirosmos" of ANY kind for us? I think not. In v. 2 you have "diverse peirosmoi' (different kinds of trials). Some may be arranged by God to perfect us (like Abraham, who was 'tested by God'). But James God doens't do 'peirsomos' to us. What's up? James has in mind a specific kind of trial, that is, the specific pull toward sin. THAT isn't arranged by God. But surely when tested by God we equally face temptations. Abraham would have been 'tempted' to failure, though God's intention was that he succeed. The pull toward sin comes from our own sinful natures, not from God. In cicrcumstances God might arragne to test us, perfect us, God should be seen as pulling for us, providing and working with and in us for our perfection, whereas the same circumstances cannot but also provide an opportunity for failure and sin because of what WE bring to the world, what WE are in those circumstances.
I dunno!
Tom
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted Yesterday 2:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
In cicrcumstances God might arragne to test us, perfect us, God should be seen as pulling for us, providing and working with and in us for our perfection, whereas the same circumstances cannot but also provide an opportunity for failure and sin because of what WE bring to the world, what WE are in those circumstances.
selah:
i'm confused.
How does God do this arranging to test us & perfect us?
Does he get other people in on it? Does satan ask permission and
God grants it - like the Job story?
God tests/tempts us...and at the same time God is pulling for us. hmm.
I'm trying to think how I would lovingly do this with my children...
Maybe it's something simple like giving my child the car for the evening?
in a way I'm "testing" her to see if she follows through with
what she's supposed to do... To pass the test, she goes where
she says she is going, she doesn't speed or crash, she follows
the rules of the road and she comes home on time. Over time
I build trust in her in that specific area and we grow in our relationship
together...
If that's the kind of test you're alluding to, I guess I could see how God
might be behind certain tests. I just can't think of examples other than
the ones where we learn how to trust in supernatural manifestations (word of
knowledge/calling/promptings etc). Even Abe's test seems to be a form of
this kind of test. "can you hear me now, Abe? ok... then do this...trust me
trust me... now, Stop."
See how Abe received a word ...followed God (in faith) anyway...and then he
got the final piece. The test involved was about hearing God and trusting him.
What am I missing?
Maybe it would help to make it concrete.
Can you think of one time God personally tested you Tom?
love,
selahPost Edited (selah) : 11/8/2005 1:41:49 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted Yesterday 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | In the Old Testament, there's also OT:974 ("bachan") that may help: it's used in a metaphor of "trying people as if trying gold" in Job 23:10 and Zech 13:9. This verb is used in Abraham's test in Genesis. Also see Psalm 17:3, Psalm 139:23, Jer 11:20, 12:3, 17:10, 20:12. As far as I can tell, this word is never used with nonbelievers except in Mal 3:16 (where God corrects the wrong beliefs the Israelites had).
(There are a few other Hebrew words that are translated into "test" and "trial", but I don't have the time to look up those right now. I'm already procrastinating on a presentation I have to give tomorrow. Bad bad me.)
So all in all, perhaps God tests us to purge us from "impurities". As the phrase goes, God loves you so much that He'll accept you as you are, but He also loves you too much to leave you as you are.
If you're going to be skeptical, be fair and be skeptical of skepticism. | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted Yesterday 8:45 AM (GMT -6) | |
selah said...
God tests/tempts us...and at the same time God is pulling for us. hmm.
I'm trying to think how I would lovingly do this with my children...
Maybe it's something simple like giving my child the car for the evening?
in a way I'm "testing" her to see if she follows through with
what she's supposed to do... To pass the test, she goes where
she says she is going, she doesn't speed or crash, she follows
the rules of the road and she comes home on time. Over time
I build trust in her in that specific area and we grow in our relationship
together...
I'm really big on this notion that it's proper to draw from our earthly examples. Think about what Jesus said about the faith of the centurian, and the fish/stone metaphor, etc. So here's how I see this test/tempt thing playing out in my relationship to my girls: I do often test them, but never tempt them. My tests are always motivated by my desire to help my daughters grow. "Come on, Larissa! You can do it! I know you're scared, but try to go up that climbing wall!" "Cassie, you're gonna fall sometimes as you learn to ride your bike, but it's worth it." "Savannah, you've got to eat more than french fries if you want to grow up big." If she "fails" it's not sin, it's just a missed opportunity for her to stretch and grow, and it's a "lesson" we'll have to repeat.
I'm probably revealing my conservative roots, but I do think that fathers have different intuitions than mothers, and oversimplified it looks something like this: fathers challenge whereas mothers protect. Not that I don't protect and my wife doesn't challenge, but it's more that we're just covering different zones in the playing field. Non-hierarchical complementarianism.
Post Edited (Corey) : 11/8/2005 7:51:22 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted Yesterday 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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