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Corey
Five with a Four-wing




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   Posted 12/16/2005 9:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A while ago I read (mostly) through Paul Among the Postliberals.  In it Douglas Harink makes an exegetical argument that the greek phrase pistis Christou, which has been usually translated in various places throughout the NT as "faith in Christ" really ought to be translated "faithfulness of Christ".
 
So what if it's true... what if we're "saved by the faithfulness of Christ" rather than "saved by faith in Christ"?  What implications do you see?
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One Love
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   Posted 12/16/2005 11:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey:
A while ago I read (mostly) through Paul Among the Postliberals. In it Douglas Harink makes an exegetical argument that the greek phrase pistis Christou, which has been usually translated in various places throughout the NT as "faith in Christ" really ought to be translated "faithfulness of Christ".

So what if it's true... what if we're "saved by the faithfulness of Christ" rather than "saved by faith in Christ"? What implications do you see?


One would be a definitely needed REFOCUS on the human life of Jesus and the way we are to emulate him...as well as that which qualified him to be Messiah and Lord.

This would not, however, in my mind, diminish that idea of faith IN Christ as the means to salvation. To have faith IN Christ is to have faith that Christ's faithfulness (as demonstrated on the Cross) truly provides the critical defeat of evil and inbreaking of God's Kingdom. This is why the preached word was so important. Scope ALL of Romans 10.

Romans 10:11-15
As the scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Faith IN Christ would still be there as an important theme. No question. But it would be placed in a larger framework for understanding.


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
                                            --God
 

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Starkman
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   Posted 12/16/2005 11:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In essence, one will always need to have faith IN the faithfullness OF Christ.

Starkman


My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?"  Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2005 8:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

INTERESTING, COREY, MEPH AND STARKMAN.

 

Homily on the topic from the Editor of Touchstone Mag...

Check out the homily for Friday, November 5, 2004 http://www.touchstonemag.com/frpat/2004_10_31_frpatarchive.html

Galatians 2:11-21 -- The KJV got it correctly.

...new translators are unable to look upon Jesus as a man of faith. They think of faith as something that Christians have, but somehow Jesus had no need for.

This is clearly not view of St. Paul, according to whom we are justified before God by the faith of Jesus Himself. What Paul affirms here is not that we are justified by our own faith. We are justified by Jesus’ faith. Jesus’ faith was the source of His redemptive obedience to the Father. Our faith comes from Jesus’ faith, and this is what renders us just. Thus, the Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of Jesus as "the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the Cross, despising the shame . . . who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself." (12:2,3). This is the faith that justifies us, the faith of Jesus in all His service to God and man, but especially His endurance of the Cross. This is what we see when we behold the wondrous Cross, where the young Prince of glory died. The crucifixion is the supreme symbol of the faith of Jesus.

. . .

In the NT most statements about redemption tend to lay emphasis on the universality of what God has done in Jesus; the terms tend to be plural and collective: "God so loved the world," says John 3:16. Similarly Paul wrote that God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Romans 8:32). Paul also so wrote, "There is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:6). The words of Jesus over the covenant-cup also stress a universal perspective: "This is My blood of the new covenant which will be shed for you and for the many." Earlier the Lord had said that "the Son of man came not to served but to serve and to give His life for the many" (Mark 10:45). Texts of this sort abound in early Christian literature, all insisting that the blood of Jesus was shed for all of mankind. That is to say, the New Testament teaches universal, not limited atonement.

(Yet) ...

More rarely does the NT speak of Jesus’ love for each person. ... Paul, like John, knew the love of Christ to be directed as him personally.

. . .

A third feature of this passage is its inclusion of our identification with Christ: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." The acceptance of the crucifixion on Jesus Christ into our hearts places there a new source of life and identity. I must die, in order for Christ to live in me. That is the hardest of messages—I must die. Not "I must be fulfilled." Not "I must be satisfied." Not "I must reach my full potential." No, very simply "I must die."

Christ’s own faith is the model, exemplar, and source of my own. These are hard words: "It is not longer I who live." The self must go. In the pursuit of Christ, selfishness, self-centeredness, self-preoccupation, and self-absorption are the enemy. The destruction of these things in our hearts is what Paul calls a crucifixion: "I have been crucified with Christ."

. . .

We Christians have no hope but in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. He is our one confidence in life and in death. We place all our faith in Jesus’ faith. We cling to His cross as our strength and solace. For His sake we put to death the ways of the flesh and of the world, in order to conform our live to the pattern of His cross. In doing all of this, we are justified. Jesus has replaced the Law. He is our only Law. We Christians, once and for all, have placed all our eggs in one basket. It is the Easter basket.

 

(APOLOGIES TO COREY AND TOM FOR LENGTH -- THIS WON'T BE COMMON.)

======================================================

 
And mentioned, not as much, here (Monday, January 26, 2004): http://www.touchstonemag.com/frpat/2004_01_25_frpatarchive.html
According to biblical thought, "the life is in the blood." Therefore, the pouring out of Jesus’ blood in His sacrifice on the Cross is the pouring out of His life in love for the Father and for each of us. By this pouring out of His life, Jesus cleanses away our sins. By His death He defeats sin, and by His resurrection He defeats death.
The righteousness of man, received in faith, comes from the righteousness of God manifested in the expiatory mystery of the Cross. Through the death of Jesus, God both manifests Himself as righteous and makes believers righteous "by the faith of Christ" (verse 26).
 

HOPE THIS HELPS!



 
(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/16/2005 7:48:06 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2005 11:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GREAT VOICE, AND THE SERMON IS SHORT!
 
http://www.allsaintsorthodox.org/Audio/24oct2004HMeta.ram

10/24/04 - Galatians 2:16-20 / Luke 8:26-39; Fr. Patrick Homily
 

THE ABOVE IS a 19-minute audio tape of the sermon (Friday, November 5, 2004) that the notes in the previous post are from:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/frpat/2004_10_31_frpatarchive.html


 
(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/17/2005 12:51:36 PM (GMT-6)

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Corey
Five with a Four-wing




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   Posted 12/18/2005 7:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your thoughts. What prompted me to think about this again was Laika's insistence that faith is impossible in hell. So I was wondering, if Laika is right on that, does this necessarily have the result that ultimate salvation of the damned impossible?

Does it matter that a sufferer in hell be able to "do" faith personally, since nonetheless Jesus will be faithful to keep seeking and saving the lost. What does the 100th sheep really have to do to be saved? Isn't it all about the shepard? 
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ThatDarnCat
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   Posted 12/18/2005 8:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey said...
Does it matter that a sufferer in hell be able to "do" faith personally, since nonetheless Jesus will be faithful to keep seeking and saving the lost. What does the 100th sheep really have to do to be saved? Isn't it all about the shepard? 
Is our salvation unilateral?  God just saves us, even against our will if need be?
 
Jesus certainly seeks the lost but won't coerce them against their will.
 
It isn't "all about the shepherd".
 
 
 


 

Post Edited (ThatDarnCat) : 12/18/2005 9:43:47 PM (GMT-6)

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Truth Aficionado
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   Posted 12/21/2005 1:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ThatDarnCat said...
Is our salvation unilateral?  God just saves us, even against our will if need be?
How about loving against our will?  Some folks call that "Date Rape"! 
 
God so loves the world, he will send you to hell and rape you.


 Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game.

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 12/21/2005 1:39:30 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/22/2005 8:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We have to admit that in our individualized society we think of pretty much only one definition of "will." And that is having it "my way" (You get your pick of Sanatra, or Burger King, or "you name it." )

When the Church hammered out the recognition that Christ had a real "human will" they were saying that he assumed humanity to "be like us in every aspect, except sin." That did NOT make him two persons -- two who could each have their own "have it your ways". (Some teachers of error actually wanted to say that.) But the ONE Person who eternally is the only-begotten Son of the Father is THE person who was born of the Virgin, suffered, died, and rose from the dead, and "sits" with his glorified body "at the right hand of the Father..."

Ascended. . .Christ has BOTH a divine will and a human will. They are each from their own "nature." But in Christ humanity is "recapitulated." That is, healed to what it was before sin and what it was to be without sin. Created for fellowship with God: Prophet, Priest and King.

In Christ we see most clearly that REAL human "will" -- free from the passions of the flesh ("Passions" that crave more Burger than our bodies actually need, more frequently, and with more excitement in the pictures than the burgers actually taste!) -- is modeled on the prayer of Christ in the garden, identifying ultimately our will with God's will. In the garden Christ's human will feared death, though his mind was also on the Father's will. And in that honesty of fearing death he took up death for our sake, and in dying restored our lost humanity to God. Dispising and yet giving himself to death on the Cross he bought our freedom to "be all that we can be."

In Chirst we see what TRUE human will is. Freedom from bondage. Freedom from the rape of the curse of sin. Freedom from the sting of death, which is more sin.


 
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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/22/2005 7:13:09 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/22/2005 8:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But this is three (now four) posts about human "free will."

The thread title says "Faith IN Christ vs Faith OF Christ"

I'm not so sure growing up 20th cent. Evangelical prepared me to know the difference between the two. After all it has been since the 1600s that ANY English translation has gotten that verse correct in translation!

Faith in Christ is, obviously, my faith in Christ "through" which the grace of God saves me (says Romans). Grace saves, through faith -- familiar material.

But the ONLY actuall FAITH that saves is the "faith of Christ." Only HIS obedience and faith (they go together) actually accomplish anything salvific. And ONLY the faith of an ACTUAL human being (not just a diety) can "rescue me from this body of death" (Romans 7:24)

I think that THAT is what this thread is about, and what the issue is about. BOTH our faith AND Christ's faith are necessary. But there is a tendency to not dwell on the humanity of Christ enough. We have to appreicate BOTH the eating of food after having "stood among them" while "the doors locked" AND the power of divinity to be unstopable need to be considered simultaneously. We have to practice by taking them one at a time. "Partative exegesis" is how the Gospels present them, to teach us, taking them one by one. But they have to be considered each in light of the other.

We are saved "through" our faith by God's grace. But it is by CHRIST'S faith that we are saved. HIS faithfulness. His faith, as only the incarnate Son of God can have" in the Father's will that is his will too. THAT saves us.


 
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