Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Curious
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 8
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 5:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Doc (and others),

I just joined this forum, and I'm excited! I am a believer, but I often struggle with whether or not Christianity *really* is true. I feel that I could really "sell out" if only I could know for sure. After looking hard at the evidence, I guess I think that there's maybe a 70 or 80% probability that Christianity is true. So, it seems reasonable to be a Christian and to base my life on Christian teachings. Yet, my estimated 20 or 30% probability that Christianity is not true always nags at me. It makes me feel that it may not be worth it to really sell out, because there are a lot of costs associated with this. So, I kind of go along lukewarm, and this bothers me. How have you dealt with this issue? Specifically, I think most would agree that it is impossible to *know* Christianity is true for sure (or, in fact, to know that anything is true for sure). I realize that there is relatively strong evidence for Christianity's claims, but given the uncertainty involved about any truth claim, how do you really take the leap of faith that Christianity requires? How does one have a firm faith in the face of uncertainty?

Curious

P.S. Doc: My wife and I have really appreciated all of your various ministries over the years. Thanks for all the work you do and the way in which you do it!

Back to Top
 

Mephi2K
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 7:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
First of all, WELCOME to the board, curious.

Confession time. And I think Modes will agree with me here, somewhat. Do you know the BIGGEST reason that I believe that Christianity is true? What keeps me anchored in my faith, though sometimes I honestly feel that it'd be easier to be an atheist? My perceived experiences with the Risen Christ. I've gone through some WEIRD stuff, man. God talking to me and things. God telling me He loves me. God guiding me through life. God directing me to ministry. Prophecy. Spiritual warfare. Deliverance from nasty stuff. And I cannot deny these experiences. To deny them would be to deny who I am. My experiences with the risen Christ are why I place a priori significance in the Scriptures on the first place. It moved me from a place of mere possibility to actual COMMITMENT. (Is this what Modes keeps talking about?) And I operate by this thing Thomas V. Morris calls the "principle of belief conservation" Ffom "Philosophy for Dummies" by Tom Morris, page 73:

quote:
For any proposition of truth, P: If

1. Taking a certain cognitive stance toward P (for example, believing it, rejecting it, or withholding judgement) would require rejecting or doubting a vast number of your beliefs,

2. You have no independent positive reason to reject or doubt all those other beliefs, and

3. You have no compelling reason to take up that cognitive stance toward P,

then it is more rational for you not to take that cognitive stance toward P.



This is why I DON'T accept Open View Theism. (This is why others can honestly ACCEPT open view theism, too!) This is why I DO believe in Christian theism. Basically all this says is that if you have a view of life in which many of your beliefs and experiences are grounded, you've should have some DARN good reasons for reliquishing it. A really good reason for a paradigm shift.

See, with me, certain things can only truly be explained, first of all, by at LEAST the existence of being outside of myself. I just don't believe that I've been psychotic enough to consistently talk to myself and psychologically induce the physical things that have happened to me , since getting with Christ. Next, given the context of my experiences, I have good reason to believe that it was actually the Risen Christ that I experienced. Could I be wrong? Heck, yeah. (Why do you think I mention the possibility of God just playing jokes. I once thought about the possible existence of a deity that just goes around in different religions, given "undeniable" religious expereriences)
HOWEVER, even reading the ideas of people like James and Hick, I, as of yet, have not seen compelling reasons about WHY my experience should not be attributed to the Risen Christ. Thus, I am still a Christian. Do I doubt? Oh, yes. But it is at this point where I exercise the ability of commitment. I've realized that that's what it comes to. In other words, the best thing that I can do is to operate as a rational being as much as I can and COMMIT myself fully to what I believe. I basically say that I will hold this belief to be "true" until I am given sufficient reason otherwise. I am open to that and have often thought of what criteria would cause me to seriously rethink my faith.

My thoughts:

1. NOTHING is certain. But some things are undeniable. Go from there, being as rationally and existentially honest as possible.

2. As with all attempts at aesthetic realization (the moral, the good, the true, the beautiful), we may not EVER reach the totality of ultimate truth. But that does not excuse us from not trying to operate such that we increase our capacity and knowledge of it.

3. Be open. You are ALWAYS wrong SOMEWHERE.

4. Live authentically, whatever you believe (heh, the existentialist speaks...) If you are wrong on your previous thought, at least you LIVED it. Can we pathetic/wonderful humans ask for more, ultimately, even if a God doesn't exist?

Curious, I humbly suggest that, if you think this would help you, do this type of analysis on yourself, especially the principle of belief conservation. Remember, certainty is an illusion. Being true to yourself and commitment, as a rational being, is where it's at in my view.



Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

Edited by - Mephi2K on 07/23/2001 12:19:36 PM
Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 7:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Confession time. And I think Modes will agree with me here, somewhat. Do you know the BIGGEST reason that I believe that Christianity is true? What keeps me anchored in my faith, though sometimes I honestly feel that it'd be easier to be an atheist? My perceived experiences with the Risen Christ.


Is that EXPERIENCE I hear you talking about Meph? It sounds wonderful!

Tom

"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight

Edited by - TGB on 07/23/2001 12:51:33 PM
Back to Top
 

Modes of Thought
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 9:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
WHAAAHOOO!! Word up! Amen!!! Preach it Meph!! AWWW yaaa!

There is a moment of either/or. After that, LIVE IT. Doubt can largely be replaced by obedience. The opposite of faith is not doubt, it is sin. If you are truly past the either/or, it becomes a matter of obedience or a return to your old life. Listen to the Meph man, he's got it goin' on.

Put it this way: all Christians are Christians because they have encountered (and continue to commune with) the RISEN LORD. In THIS encounter, they have recognized their sinfulness, repented and PRAISE GOD! they have been forgiven. THIS IS THE ULTIMATELY REAL! Nothing gets more real than that. If you have had that experience in one way or another, then you know what I'm talking about. You KNOW God, not just ideas about God. IF NOT, by all means, ask the Lord to break into your life and reveal himself to you in Christ. HE WILL! And the thoughts of your heart will be truly revealed. You will either respond in faith and live in forgiveness, or you will be offended and carry your burdens away with you.

Please understand, I am speaking a bit hypothetically, I don't know you. I don't know your faith. I am just offering what I understand to be the simplist way of talking about "what happens" to people when they get right with Christ. This does not mean all your struggles go away, but the main thing is, be an IMITATOR of Christ, he's not interested in admirers. It's either that or go check out Buddhism or something.

In Christian love,

Modes

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Back to Top
 

pia†desideria
Registered Member


Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 10:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When we think of Christianity as an idea we can be more or less certain about, embracing/appropriating this idea can be challenging, depending on where we are on the more-certain/less-certain continuum. If “it is impossible to *know* Christianity is true for sure,” you are right to question how we can reason-ably sell out to something we aren’t so sure of.

Maybe instead of focusing on Christianity as a bunch of facts that are either true or false, try focusing on Christ as a person who you can get to know better with time and experience. Perhaps then we will discover somethingone worth pursuing whole-heartedly, as Mephi and Modes have already testified to.

That way you can be a deeply committed Christian and go from Curious to Curiouser and Curiouser (as Alice was so found of saying in Wonderland ). And the more Curiouser you become, the closer you are to being a really good theologian (as opposed to all those theologians so bent on going from Curious to Conclusion to downright Crustiness ). At least that’s how I see it. (But don’t take my word for it…my thinking has been known to deviate from The Norm ).

Welcome to Wonderland,
pia†desideria

Edited by - pia†desideria on 07/23/2001 4:11:52 PM
Back to Top
 

Pseudo-Intellectual
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 58
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

That way you can be a deeply committed Christian and go from Curious to Curiouser and Curiouser (as Alice was so found of saying in Wonderland ). And the more Curiouser you become, the closer you are to being a really good theologian (as opposed to all those theologians so bent on going from Curious to Conclusion to downright Crustiness ). At least that’s how I see it. (But don’t take my word for it…my thinking has been known to deviate from The Norm ).

Welcome to Wonderland,
pia†desideria



Pia said it soooooooooo well!!! I can't add anything to that ecxept...
a) AMEN
and
b) If you haven't already you might want to read Dan Taylor's "The Myth of Certainty: The Reflective Christian and the Risk of Commitment" It deals with a lot of these questions of how to be sold out (the risk of commitment) without giving up you qustioning mind and even giving aetheism or any thing eles a fair hearing. Can i get any co-sig's on this one?

d.c.


dudechild

"If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?" -Art Hoppe
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 7/23/2001 8:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well put Modes. : )



What are the basics?:

God is life. All have their very being in his graciousness. When we sin god still loves us. We continue to be by his very doing. The door is open to confess and turn. And he meets us and builds us up and is part of the energy of our steps back to Him.
God loves us. He loves us all together and He loves us individually. That math is no problem for Him--He knows it well.
God is near us. God declares to abide with us and us with Him. He drew near to us that we might draw near to Him. He became by nature one of us that by grace we might partake of the divine nature--be born again.
Sin is ontological suicide. (I like that quote from somebody.) Sin hurts. It messes you up. It tends to lead to more sin. The sting of sin is death; and death-liness, or trying to avoid even the fear of "death" (aging, being bored, weaknesses and even perceived inadequacies) leads to more sin--if you let it. Instead, run to God.
Find out just how much "commitment God asks/expects/demands/reauires. I believe it to be a realistic amount. As sensible as the advice of not to play on the freeway near O'Hare.

Here is a wonderful quote:

"God is closer to you than you are to yourself,
but He is more than anything
further away in majesty and glory.
We will never know Him in His essence,
but in His encounter,
we know Him more than any friend."
(Sorry. . . I don't have the source handy.)


PotOnWheel

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 7/24/2001 12:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Pia: "Welcome to Wonderland"

Tom: Sounds like a good title for a book directed to introducing new believers to the realities of faith in Christ. Just needs somebody to write it. I wonder who?

Tom

"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight
Back to Top
 

Triskal
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
 
   Posted 7/24/2001 11:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christianity differs from all other beliefs in that it's followers actually have a personal relationship with the one they are following. We know and experience God in several different ways.

Some of them being:

  • Creation - We experience the awesome power of God through all he has created.

  • History - We can come to know the greatness of God through his actions in history, written throughout the pages of the Bible.

  • His Son, Jesus Christ - We learn of God's true character through his Son,--and our savior--Jesus Christ.

  • Circumstances - God expresses himself to us in the most personal way through his actions in and around our lives.



I believe everyone here agrees with me in saying that Christianity is not some set of customs and traditions that you can take hold of. Rather, it's a personal relationship with your Creator, Savior, Master, and Friend. Those who have truly come to know Him, and have dedicated their lives to serving Him and working with Him to establish His Kingdom in the hearts of those it has not reached, they are the ones who have found true happiness and meaning. Everyone here seems to understand this, for that I am glad and rejoice.

Curious, when you have fully observed the lives of those who have a powerful relationship with God, then you will see that it is definately worth giving up everything for. Can true happiness be found elsewhere? I leave you with that question.


In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Back to Top
 

GregBoyd
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
 
   Posted 7/26/2001 8:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Curious

I'm delighted you and your wife have been helped by my ministry. Thanks.

You've gotten some good advice here. For my part, I will simply tell you that your dilemma is one I've wrestled with for years. Faith has never come easy for me. It's been a struggle. This has helped me get inside the mind of unbelievers, but it also produces discomfort.

With Meph, my experience of the risen Lord is centrally important. On a day by day basis, Jesus is not a theory in my mind but a real presence I walk in. The more I yield to this presence, the more real he becomes.

Still, I have met people of other religions who testify to having the same sort of on-going experience with Allah, or Krishna, or whoever (or whatever). My experience doesn't prove I'm right in thinking Jesus is Lord.

What also helps me is reviewing, time and again, all the reasons I have for believing Jesus is Lord. The historical evidence for his life, ministry and resurrection are, to me, very compelling. I honestly don't know how to explain the evidence without supposing that the disciples were right: Jesus is Lord.

Still, historical evidence can never get you beyond a probability -- even if a high probability. The historical case for Jesus can be doubted, as the plethora of liberal critics shows.

The other considerations brought up on this thread -- esp. how the Christian worldview makes sense out of life -- are important. Still, they are not beyond doubt. There are other ways of answering these questions.

How can one be sure? My conclusion is that, if you mean by "sure" 100% intellectual certainty, you can't. This is why we must at some point accept that faith is needed.

It helps me to realize that believing in Christianity isn't the only thing that requires faith. EVERYTHING DOES. Getting on a plain, getting married, figuring out a math problem (yes, even that), all scientific theories, it all requires the faithful acceptance of certain axioms.

The question, then, is not whether or not you will have faith. The question is, Will your faith be well grounded or not?

I believe I have more than enough reasons to have faith that Jesus Christ is Lord. I certainly have more than any alternative ulimate belief.

As in many areas of life, one must sooner or latter commit. Pierce defined belief as "that which you are willing to act on." It's never certainty: its always probability. In all areas of life. But the question is, are you convinced enough to ACT on it. Even to decide NOT to act is an act -- you are believing that a candidate for belief is NOT yet worth acting on.

So, the question is, are you convinced enough to ACT on the candidate for belief, Jesus Christ is Lord?

You'll find, as Piat suggested, that as you ACT on this belief -- you move toward Christ by following him, cultivating a prayer life, change your life accordingly, etc... he becomes more and more real to you. THIS is what transitions intellectual probabilities into faith-filled convictions.

Hope this helps.
Great question.

Doc

Back to Top
 

geej
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
 
   Posted 7/31/2001 12:57 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Curious,
The answer for me has been a rather simple but long process. Throughout my highschool and early college years, I railed against my Christianity and tried desperately to disprove the validity of Christianity. This struggle led me to Bethel and to the Bible department. Rather than disproving that Christianity was genuine, God proved to me that he was an all powerful, constant force in my life and that Christ was the basis for my salvation.
At 32, I can look back on my life and pinpoint specific moments when God brought about specific things that protected me from committing some very serious sins, protected me from harm, prompted me to do things that furthered his plan in my life and brought people and other things in my life just when I needed them the most. Christ has impacted me in my personal life, my career of choice and even what church I attend.
Another thing that completely convinces me of the fact that Christianity is genuine is that I have observed the lives of others and how their lives have completely changed. These are people who were involved with drugs, other addictions and behaviors who are completely different and sold out to Christ. It has to be God.
Hopefully, this is helpful to you in your search for truth.
Geej

Back to Top
 

Triskal
Registered Member


Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
 
   Posted 7/31/2001 6:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

Curious,
The answer for me has been a rather simple but long process. Throughout my highschool and early college years, I railed against my Christianity and tried desperately to disprove the validity of Christianity. This struggle led me to Bethel and to the Bible department. Rather than disproving that Christianity was genuine, God proved to me that he was an all powerful, constant force in my life and that Christ was the basis for my salvation.
At 32, I can look back on my life and pinpoint specific moments when God brought about specific things that protected me from committing some very serious sins, protected me from harm, prompted me to do things that furthered his plan in my life and brought people and other things in my life just when I needed them the most. Christ has impacted me in my personal life, my career of choice and even what church I attend.
Another thing that completely convinces me of the fact that Christianity is genuine is that I have observed the lives of others and how their lives have completely changed. These are people who were involved with drugs, other addictions and behaviors who are completely different and sold out to Christ. It has to be God.
Hopefully, this is helpful to you in your search for truth.
Geej






AMEN! God is awesome, awesome, AWESOME!

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:03 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads