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graygirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 9/7/2001 11:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | Does anyone know anything about this?
wonderin',
GG | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/7/2001 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | It's been brought up several times on this site, most recently on the "feminist theology" thread, but it's never had it's own topic...I'd love to know what people think...especially MODES! (where are you these days?)
Thanks graygirl...
*************************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/8/2001 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Okay, I'll just drop a couple of hints at why I am a liberationist. I lies mostly on how Jesus defines himself as Messiah:
Read Matt. 11:1-5, Luke 4:14-21, Luke 6:17-38. These are just some of the many grounding points for a liberation theology.
Yes, of course, I know that there are other passages that say other things and Jesus loves all people and so forth, true, true, true. BUT there is a deep thread of continuity that is almost always overlooked by wealthy white Christians in particular. This thread runs deep through the minor prophets, also through the major prophets and Jesus speaks of its completion in John the Baptist (Matt: 11:13) and he is himself its fulfillment the true year of Jubilee has COME in Christ. This is God's preference displayed for those who are poor. See again Luke 4:19. This year of Jubilee had been one of Israel's worst "oversights" and God has come to reinstate it in the full, hear this run through Luke 6 as mentioned above. Lend without expecting return, give without receiving, etc....
I contend that this is very near the heart of the Gospel itself. I heard a profound song one time about the "great reverse" God's Kingdom is a reversal of this one, it turns things upsides down. The powerless will be empowered, the unloved, loved, the hungry fed, and yes, the full will be hungry, the powerful raped of their control.
Not popular perhaps, but Biblical nonetheless, God IS the God of Justice as well as the God of mercy and grace. The question of what one receives (justice or mercy) hangs at least partially on how one positions oneself in terms of God's liberating activity in Jesus Christ. Luke 6:37-38
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/8/2001 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Is the "great reverse" a song by Pegtop? I think I remember hearing them sing it.
*********************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/8/2001 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | | (I ran across this good quote.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At some thoughts a man stands perplexed,
above all at the sight of human sin,
and he wonders whether to combat it by force or by humble love.
Always decide: "I will combat it by humble love."
If you resolve on that once for all,
you can conquer the whole world.
Loving humility is a terrible force:
It is the strongest of all things,
and there is nothing else like it.
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(spoken by the Starets Zozima,
in Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov") | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/8/2001 8:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: it is always easy to stereotype the white rich christian...I know many christians who are conservative who have very good reasons for believing as they do. And guess what? They're not all white. In fact, several Christians I know happen to be (gasp!) black, hispanic, own property and actually (oh know!) are conservative for reasons (they actually believe this) they find in their Bibles.
From your statement, sounds like your feeling the guilt of all the terrible things us white people have done to all those other poor people throughout recorded history. Racism is racism regardless of the color. John 17:3 Harold
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graygirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 9/9/2001 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all...and thanks for responding...tryin' to help a sista understand
so what is the controversy with liberation theology...i don't understand...Of course ministry to the poor, the marginalized, the exploited is at the heart of the gospel...is that news?....what would a liberation theologist do that is remarkable? i don't understand what the novelty is (the people i'm around seem to think it's a new idea, never heard of before)....
is it ministry to the poor? providing immediate needs, etc? teaching and discipling or just building houses etc?...or is it more of a political movement, or both?.....
i don't understand what the hype is about. if Christ didn't come to set the oppressed free what then? why is this put in a class by itself as if only liberationists really care about these issues?
are liberationists missionary type people or activists starting protests and leaving?
i mean is the gospel being preached or it is more of a "let's make noise and jet" approach??...is there real discipleship??...
is the goal to attack the oppressor, the system or to bind the brokenhearted? empower the hopeless??.....
why does it seem, when it comes to working with the poor, traditionally the catholics seem to be the ones who know what time it is? I find that so ironic because they seem to me the most subdue when it comes to God. but yet they are the most socially active sect....i just don't get it.
GG
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is the "great reverse" a song by Pegtop? I think I remember hearing them sing it.
Yes, that's the one I had in mind.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes: it is always easy to stereotype the white rich christian...I know many christians who are conservative who have very good reasons for believing as they do. And guess what? They're not all white. In fact, several Christians I know happen to be (gasp!) black, hispanic, own property and actually (oh know!) are conservative for reasons (they actually believe this) they find in their Bibles.
From your statement, sounds like your feeling the guilt of all the terrible things us white people have done to all those other poor people throughout recorded history. Racism is racism regardless of the color. John 17:3 Harold
Harold,
1. I am not interested in whether one is conservative but whether they are faithful. Faithful to what God is calling them to do. I have no idea why you are bringing "conservative" language into this conversation. To me it is not to the point.
2. I DO feel the guilt that people like myself have brought upon others, and not just in the past, but the ongoing sustaining of the structures that encourage and empower oppression. If you don't, I would suggest there is something seriously wrong with you. But that is between you and God, not you and me.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 1:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
so what is the controversy with liberation theology...i don't understand...Of course ministry to the poor, the marginalized, the exploited is at the heart of the gospel...is that news?....what would a liberation theologist do that is remarkable? i don't understand what the novelty is (the people i'm around seem to think it's a new idea, never heard of before)....
That's just the point, IF Evangelicals DID adequately recognize the heart of Gospel to be setting the captives free, I would not need to be a liberationist. We'd all already be liberationists. Most Evangelicals would rather spiritualize social issues. What I attempted to show above is that Jesus' own self identity as Messiah had very serious social implications that are to bear fruit in any community which claims to be Christian. I would love to find that all this is so obvious to you that it need not be said, but you then need to know that there many Christians out there who are not interested in obedience in this way. This is NOT a political movement, but a Christian recovery of a central part of the Gospel under the obedience of God.
quote:
are liberationists missionary type people or activists starting protests and leaving?
i mean is the gospel being preached or it is more of a "let's make noise and jet" approach??...is there real discipleship??...
Yes, most missionary types I know personally are also liberationists of sorts. That's why they hear the call they hear. Of course the Gospel is being preached, the Gospel IS the power of liberation. Real discipleship is always a result of communities of faith living rigorously together, I would hope that this is true of both liberationists and otherwise.
quote:
is the goal to attack the oppressor, the system or to bind the brokenhearted? empower the hopeless??.....
Read the verses I quoted above and you will have your answer.
quote:
why does it seem, when it comes to working with the poor, traditionally the catholics seem to be the ones who know what time it is? I find that so ironic because they seem to me the most subdue when it comes to God. but yet they are the most socially active sect....i just don't get it.
I beleive, because it is the longest standing church, it has a head start on recovering some the essentials of faith that others overlook. One can find just about every good and godly thing that Church in general has to offer, in the Catholic Church, somewhere, but it is a slow moving institution and most are too impatient to wait for it to "catch up" on the latest issues. Just a thought off the top of my head.
Good questions, and perhaps you are already a liberationist. To me what it means is trusting in the fathfulness of God when God promises justice and the true year of jubilee and also understanding that God calls us to practice this here and now for the sake of the Gospel, not instead of it. Again, the verses I listed above seem clear on this. If anyone has bones to pick, pick it with the identity of the Messiah.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/9/2001 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I find the whole concept of the "guilt we have brought upon others through the structures," etc., to be an easy construct by which to get others to feel guilt and believe the way you do. I find it manipulative. Its like those who believe in the vast conspirary theories of one world government only from more of a liberal standpoint. There isn't really proof that people can tangibly see, but rather its these "powers," these people, these things that we must somehow defeat. A scary boogeyman.
I am wondering: isn't the basic guilt over your own sins enough? Do you have to go looking for more things to feel guilty over? I don't think that's a very godly way of living a life. As for me, I do not look for guilt...I have enough guilt over my daily sins that I commit in my sphere of influence. I try not heap more upon myself.
As far as bringing conservative into it...I think you did. Your stereotypical (and racist, yes, racist) statement is a jump from stating that one, who are the Christians with the money? Conservatives. And then, of course from there one only has to make the switch to white males, because, after all, haven't women been oppressed all these years and so we can't really blame them. As such, the scapegoat is set and ready to go.
The "structures" as you identify them are not a worry because Jesus said his kingdom (and ours) is not of this world. If we preached the gospel and lived the life the structures will fall. It is interesting that Jesus never railed against the structures, nor did Paul address slavery or the plight of woman. They called for the change within. Where the gospel is preached and lived there is no need to worry about structures. Nor do I feel God would have us worry about the "guilt" we feel over the oppression we cause through support of them. I believe God would have us preach the gospel, tend to the needy and confess our sins that we may be free of any such guilt. But then again, there may be something seriously wrong with me...actually, I totally agree with that. That is why I seek God and try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. John 17:3 Harold
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/9/2001 2:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: when you state that liberation theology is not a political movement I disagree. When the gospel, the setting of the captives free, to the year of the juibee, to justice, etc. and you combine that with the statement that white wealthy christians overlook certain verses, you are certainly taking on a distinct political position and then try to make it to be THE position the Christian church has always taken.
But is that true? What is the heart of the gospel and what is setting the captives free? Do we set the captives free or does Jesus? What was the mission of him who said, "the poor you will always have," and "my kingdom is not of this world." Indeed, you are setting up a social gospel that not all would agree is the true reflection of what Jesus came to do. It isn't spiritualizing social issues to say that Jesus came to set captives free from their sins. Jesus' mission of dying for us is not a mission of the poor phyiscally, but the poor in spirit. Paul rejoiced in being held captive. Why didn't he rail against it? Wasn't it a great injustice of God?
Regardless you are definitely advocating a political position, one that many Christians would disgree with. I think you should adknowledge it as such. John 17:3 Harold...it is dangerous to assume a personal position is the true position of the church...
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/9/2001 3:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks everyone for all the input...
Graygirl, you said this:
quote:
so what is the controversy with liberation theology...i don't understand...Of course ministry to the poor, the marginalized, the exploited is at the heart of the gospel...is that news?....what would a liberation theologist do that is remarkable? i don't understand what the novelty is (the people i'm around seem to think it's a new idea, never heard of before)....
I wonder if the "novelty" you're talking about has to do with one of the beliefs of liberation theology (at least as I know it)--called "God's preferential option for ______" You fill in the blank. It depends on the type of liberation theology. Latin American liberationists would say God's preferential option for the poor. Feminist liberationists would say God's preferential option for women. Black liberationists would say God's prefential option for black people. These are the three types I'm aware of.
What's been interesting to me is that Modes
1) hasn't brought up the "preferential option" thing (because, as I was taught, it's one of the central things in liberation theology), and
2) holds to a much broader, more general form of liberation theology (than I ever learned about).
We didn't talk about anything like #2 above when I learned about it in undergrad, but I wish we had. I remember learning about liberation theology and thinking that they kind of knew where it was at, and that evangelicals had kind of missed the ball on this one. I felt I identified most with the Latin American liberationists, but that didn't do me a lot of good, because I live in America, and I didn't see anything like that being modeled in America. But I'm learning that there are people (like Modes) who (I think?) would call themselves evangelicals and liberationists, and are preaching something that is both very biblical and which has been neglected in the past...Modes (or anyone), are there any evangelical liberationist writers that you know of?
************************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
Edited by - whasssuuuppp on 09/09/2001 8:21:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/9/2001 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | The backyard Vaction Bible School culture has a tape out with a song about the Upsidedown Kingdom.
"Inside out, upside down. You want to go up, you have to go doowwwwn."
There are really two parts to that. The upside down speaks powerfully to the external. The inside out, though, obvioulsy speaks to the internal.
Both are true of the true Kingdom.
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/09/2001 8:53:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The "structures" as you identify them are not a worry because Jesus said his kingdom (and ours) is not of this world. If we preached the gospel and lived the life the structures will fall. It is interesting that Jesus never railed against the structures, nor did Paul address slavery or the plight of woman. They called for the change within. Where the gospel is preached and lived there is no need to worry about structures. Nor do I feel God would have us worry about the "guilt" we feel over the oppression we cause through support of them.
I am going to ignore your more offensive comments and stick with some of the more interesting points:
1. The structures are indeed not a worry, TO YOU. Because you benefit by them.
2. Jesus and the prophets seem to agree that justice is not an optional thing that we can overlook because we are so friggin' spiritual that dealing with real oppression doesn't rank in our churchly agendas.
3. Its hard to change within when you are not going to survive.
4. It seems you have a very naive, almost superstitious identification of preaching the gospel and using only words to do so. The power of God DOES something, it is not only a spoken word.
5. If we don't acknowledge our coorporate guilt, and our particular involvement in it, we will not change oppresive social structures, and we will be judged for this.
Did you even read my arguments and the passages I referred to? Do you not see God's concern for the oppressed? What do you make of the way Christ identifies himself in the passages I started with? What do those passages requir of you as a follower?
You said:
quote:
I believe God would have us preach the gospel, tend to the needy and confess our sins that we may be free of any such guilt.
If the Christians (and Israel prior) did this as individuals AND as institutions, we would not have needed prophets in the OT or Christ's extension of that ministry in the New.
Honestly, I think you must be responding more to things you think I must be saying than what I have actually articulated.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes: when you state that liberation theology is not a political movement I disagree. When the gospel, the setting of the captives free, to the year of the juibee, to justice, etc. and you combine that with the statement that white wealthy christians overlook certain verses, you are certainly taking on a distinct political position and then try to make it to be THE position the Christian church has always taken.
But is that true? What is the heart of the gospel and what is setting the captives free? Do we set the captives free or does Jesus? What was the mission of him who said, "the poor you will always have," and "my kingdom is not of this world." Indeed, you are setting up a social gospel that not all would agree is the true reflection of what Jesus came to do. It isn't spiritualizing social issues to say that Jesus came to set captives free from their sins. Jesus' mission of dying for us is not a mission of the poor phyiscally, but the poor in spirit. Paul rejoiced in being held captive. Why didn't he rail against it? Wasn't it a great injustice of God?
Regardless you are definitely advocating a political position, one that many Christians would disgree with. I think you should adknowledge it as such. John 17:3 Harold...it is dangerous to assume a personal position is the true position of the church...
Where to even start...If the church has taken this position, I would not need to say it now would I? Chide me all you like but this is not my doing, if I have ever been clear about God's calling on me this is one of those things...I don't expect that wagers any credibility with you, but I just want you to know that I see this as that non-negotiable and obvious in Scripture, not to mention the burden God has laid on me personally.
Your "poor in spirit" argument has been dealt with at length in the "is poverty holy" thread.
Please do tell me who consumes the VAST majority of the worlds resources and now tell me how Jesus said that was okay.
I think we will have to agree to disagree, unless you have something more compelling to say...
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | You said:
quote:
What's been interesting to me is that Modes
1) hasn't brought up the "preferential option" thing (because, as I was taught, it's one of the central things in liberation theology), and
2) holds to a much broader, more general form of liberation theology (than I ever learned about).
We didn't talk about anything like #2 above when I learned about it in undergrad, but I wish we had. I remember learning about liberation theology and thinking that they kind of knew where it was at, and that evangelicals had kind of missed the ball on this one. I felt I identified most with the Latin American liberationists, but that didn't do me a lot of good, because I live in America, and I didn't see anything like that being modeled in America. But I'm learning that there are people (like Modes) who (I think?) would call themselves evangelicals and liberationists, and are preaching something that is both very biblical and which has been neglected in the past...Modes (or anyone), are there any evangelical liberationist writers that you know of?
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There is an implicit "preferential option for the oppressed" in my thinking. This seems to me to be warranted biblically, as I have tried to argue elsewhere. All other particularized versions of oppression fall into this category. It is in this way that I am a feminist, as a subset, where appropriate, of liberation. First I am a confessing Christian, I associate myself with Evagelical Liberationist, if I have to wear a tag. But this is really to me just the same as saying, I am a Christian. I can wear other tags as well, Open Theist, or what have you, but those are not first order issues. Setting the captives free and preaching the gospel are.
Authors like Ron Sider (his classic is "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger") and Tony Campolo (EVERYONE love's TONY right? HA! I know I do.) are examples of evangelical liberationists. It's not a popular position because there are so many rich evagelicals, and they like being rich. Makes it hard to sell books, really.
About the "preferential option" thing. I intentionally avoid that terminology because it is usually misunderstood. (The rest of this is not directed at anyone in particular but to Evangelicals in America in general.) We are embarassingly quick to take offense as soon as it is suggested that WE (as a class, or nation, or social group of any sort) might be on the wrong side of any particular preference aren't we? HOW DARE we not be preferred in something! Do we really delude ourselves into thinking that there is no consequence for organized oppression? The Old Testament consistently judges corporately, why think God stopped noticing neglect for the widows and orphans? This is silly really, what is it that people think they are arguing against here? Have I made myself out to be some liberal non-confessing bleeding heart because I point out continuity in the mind and purposes of God? So be it. The Day of the Lord has always been recognized as good news for the oppressed and bad news for the oppressors. If we are not part of the solution, then we ARE part of the problem. Sorry, but that is the nature of corporate sin. The continuity of sin requires no innovation. Yes, Harold, God cares about everybody's souls too, but God has always advocated somethings and a holistic approach can see that one can not save the soul of one who is not able to think past their immediate survival. God gives the preference that is needed in cases God deems worthy. When your child asks for bread do you give him a snake? Biblically speaking, the character and faithfulness of God hang upon at least some basic liberationist principles functioning in continuity throughout the entire Bible. Just use your concordance and do a word study on poor, oppressed, widows, orphans, hungry, lepers, and any other word that implies one who suffers physically beyond their control and tell ME what you find.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/9/2001 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The backyard Vaction Bible School culture has a tape out with a song about the Upsidedown Kingdom.
"Inside out, upside down. You want to go up, you have to go doowwwwn."
There are really two parts to that. The upside down speaks powerfully to the external. The inside out, though, obvioulsy speaks to the internal.
Both are true of the true Kingdom.
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/09/2001 8:53:33 PM
Thanks, POW, I agree.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/9/2001 7:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
First I am a confessing Christian, I associate myself with Evagelical Liberationist, if I have to wear a tag. But this is really to me just the same as saying, I am a Christian.
Thank you for putting it that way. I agree.
quote:
but God has always advocated somethings and a holistic approach can see that one can not save the soul of one who is not able to think past their immediate survival.
Amen. This goes back to the "is poverty holy" thread. I can't emphasize how much I agree...
I have a couple more questions, but understand if you are too busy to answer them (graygirl, too, what are you thinking?):
1. In what way is God preferential towards the poor? Is it in salvation? (on judgment day, like you said) Does he/she love them more? Care for them more?
2. What do I do with the fact that I'm going to be priviledged, no matter what? I will always be rich by the world's standards. Unless things change dramatically, I'll always have a roof over my head, food to eat, opportunities. I've spent a lot of time feeling really guilty over this. I've tried to live life "pretending" I don't have what I do--by dressing down, driving an older car, whatever. It doesn't matter, because it can't change what is really true about me. And I'm not convinced that giving everything away to "become" financially poor is what every Christian is supposed to do. And I think that both money and opportunity are equally things that make us rich here in America, and other places. I guess what I'm asking is, what do you do with that?
You said:
quote:
. If we are not part of the solution, then we ARE part of the problem.
I want to be part of the solution. I think my "calling" in life is to do this through health care, and I'm working towards that. But I feel like my "status" will always make me part of the problem, to some degree.
Thanks for any input.
**********************
Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/9/2001 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes:If we are not part of the solution, then we ARE part of the problem. Sorry, but that is the nature of corporate sin.
WOW! THIS IS HEAVY.
quote:
whasssuuuppp: "I want to be part of the solution...But I feel like my "status" will always make me part of the problem, to some degree.
I agree with you, Whasssuuuppp. What a predicament to be caught in. I actually don't believe God wants us to give everything away -- in fact I believe in the perfect world God wants us to be blessed and prosper BUT not just us but ALL believers. It's such a fine line to balance what our culture teaches with our moral and biblical obligations to the less fortunate of the world.
I hope this makes sense because I am getting sleepy. 
trosie
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writerdad
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Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/9/2001 11:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: Americans do consume much of the world's goods, but that does not mean that Christians do. One must seperate the two. It would seem that you want to "dump," the world's problems onto wealthy white Christians and if they would just agree with you everything would change. It is important to recognize here that just because someone says they are Christians doesn't mean they are. From my mind I would simply assert that it is your view that is "simpistic." How to change the world and its problems is a very complex problem and it comes from all sides. I do not believe there is one solution, but many. I certainly would believe that, for you, it is non-negotiable. I would disagree your view is non-negotiable for everyone, because I do not believe your view is how God has called everyone to live out their life.
God is God. He is not confined to political views, nor to how we view things should change. Rather, he uses many different avenues.
I never said that Jesus was not concerned with the poor. Where I differ with you is that I do not tie the setting of the "captives free" with a physicalness of the world that we somehow are a part of. Jesus came to set the captives free from sin, to redeem us. HE will eventually redeem the world and we are to fight for justice by preaching the gospel that brings about change in hearts of those around us. But when the gospel becomes primarly social, then it loses its effectiveness because it loses its primary thrust. When one ties the gospel to something we do and tie the promise of the gospel to something physical, where does it stop? God promised to set the captives free, why isn't he taking care of me? Why am I not better off than I am? And where should it stop? Should we even have computers...cause people are starving...within the "structures" there are benefits that we EACH participate in. I do not see structures good or bad, it is how you use them. In that sense they are just like art.
As far as the offensive things I said, I would hope you wouldn't ignore them. There is much truth to them. John 17:3 Harold
Finally, I would add this: I know several wealthy Christians in my area. Their wealth contributes greatly to the well being of many families I know. Without their wealth these people would have no job, no way to support their families, support the church they go to, etc. To SAY that we should change the structures is one thing. To bring about a solution where no one is hurt is another. Finally, a workman is due his wages. A parable of the talents is a good case in point. Each of us can be blessed by the work we do. I certainly believe we should use our talents and treasures wisely. But I believe God has called some to wealth to use their talents that way and some in other ways...
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/9/2001 11:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: finally, I wanted to add this. God has always had "agendas," as you put it. And his agenda in the NT is the preaching of the gospel, which he calls each of us to do (I find it interesting that he did not say in the great comission to preach the gospel to every creature and feed the poor, and change the structures). That is why you see little (or no) of the Old Testament call for justice that you keep citing. God's agenda comes to completion in Jesus Christ and what he did and that is now the central activity of all Christians. All work and activity flows from that. It is not that God does not call us to feed the poor or help the needy, it is simply all things revolve around and through that message. I do find it interesting that you continue cite Old Testament prophets as your example, yet cite little from the NT. Jesus had concern for the poor, as did Paul. But it is the heart that always will need to be changed...oh, and I do want to apologize. I try to find compelling things to say but I don't always succeed...
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/9/2001 11:30 PM (GMT -6) | | What does one do with the fact that one may always be rich by the world' standards? You use what God has given you to the glory of God and to the best of your abilities...but if one is going to sit around feeling guilty about it, it would be best to give it all away. Perhaps it won't change the world, but it would make you feel less guilty about it...
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/10/2001 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
writerdad: You use what God has given you to the glory of God and to the best of your abilities...
AMEN! As my pastor has said several times (paraphrased version) "You are blessed to be a blessing!"
It's a complex thing
trosie
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 5:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I am curious: do you have a plan by which the defeating of these powers might be accomplished? And what are you doing yourself to accomplish such a thing? Do you have any day-to-day constructive way to go about defeating these structures that oppress the masses (all the masses, of course, except us wealthy white Christians)? It would seem to me you have two choices...you can totally remove yourself from society (which you obviously haven't done) or you can work within the systems you deem oppressive, which may or may not be fruitful. Of course, in doing so you will never be free of the guilt because Jesus pronounced the poor you will always have with you and, given history, there is now reason to doubt his word.
It should be noted that, as Thomas Howard said in his book Christ The Tiger, we all contribute to someone's mannon. In other words, we all will contribute to someone's sin. For instance, if I go to a store and buy some meat, the chances are good that some of the money I use will be given to an employee as wages by which he will buy drugs, or substain an alcohol habit or other such thing. AS such we all contribute to such actitivites. But I believe God knows that, many times, he realizes we do the best we can and understands such things. By the same token we support a government that many times does evil things. We cannot control all it does, yet we are also called to obey the laws of the land. Where does one draw the line? I believe it is an individual thing, but would protesting by not paying taxes as some do the best way to handle it? Particularly if one has kids? It is a matter, many times, of priority and practically. John 17:3 Harold
Edited by - writerdad on 09/10/2001 11:05:36 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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