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Curious
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 8/29/2001 7:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi,
A central tenet of Christianity is that we must turn to Christ in order to receive forgiveness because only then may we stand perfect and blameless before God, as Christ paid the penalty for our sins and wiped the slate clean. But, if God made us with the capacity for both good and evil, why can't He just accept everyone, sin and all, without the necessity of Christ's sacrifice? In other words, why can't God tolerate the presence of sin? Isn't God somewhat petty or inconsistent, having made us with the capacity for sin, but then not being able to accept us with that sin when it is manifested?
Thanks for your responses,
Curious | | Back to Top | | |
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Pseudo-Intellectual
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 58
| Posted 8/29/2001 7:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Isn't God somewhat petty or inconsistent, having made us with the capacity for sin, but then not being able to accept us with that sin when it is manifested?
This question becomes even more complicated if God is morally ambiguous Himself. pseudo-sinner
Edited by - pseudo-intellectual on 08/29/2001 12:47:09 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 8/29/2001 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I would think it's because sin represents everything he is opposed to. Sin enslaves us and keeps us craving more, God desires to free us from the chains of slavery to sin. If God were to tolerate sin he would be compromising his overall desires for us.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/30/2001 12:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Away from LIFE is DEATH...
Curious asks: "why can't God tolerate the presence of sin?" and "why can't He just accept everyone, sin and all, without the necessity of Christ's sacrifice? "
In some way maybe we can say that God does "accept" us with the presence of sin. If we can say that God "accepts" what he LOVES. "For God so loved the world..." and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
So to accept I'd volunteer a "yes." But to tolerate I'd say "no." Of course I['m playing with words...but we should make the point that God, in his love, did not choose to leave us in our sin...but sent His Son to save us!
But this does not get any further than the surface. The real issue is the answer to the question of: "What's wrong?" Answer THAT and you are on your way.
You say rightly that "Christ paid the penalty for our sins." But that is not all he did. The Bible says: "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification" (Rom 4:25). Our guilt was not the only problem. Our sin also made us spiritually dead.
The issue is not just that of what God will decide to do in his mind, such as "why can't God tolerate. . .Isn't God somewhat petty or inconsistent?" We were REALLY dead. When the Bible says "The wages of sin is death." it is not saying that God has decided that sinners are "as good as dead." Genesis shows in interesting numerical, symbolic fashion just some of the effects of death. (People started living shorter lives.) But the worst part, in my mind, is the vicious circle of sin..death...sin...death...
Someone wrote an interesting article, that's on the net (Original Sin according to St. Paul ]] where he shows that the problem of the fall is not one of God having to live up to some law of justice that is even bigger than he is (suggesting that this came from Augustine's pagan youth), but instead is a problem explained in Paul's view of anthropology--"for as in Adam all died."
You could say that God DID "accept us with that sin when it is manifested". He took it on Himself on Calvary. Kept it. Went to Hell with it. But smashed it too.
But we want God to do more.
He raised us with him to justification. The atonement is at-one-ment. We in Christ are united with him in his resurrection. We partake of HIS life. Mine is dead with Him. My salvation is to participate by grace in the divine life of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Unless you have been born again you shall not see the kingdom of heaven. "Spirit gives birth to spirit" (Jn 3) "...born of the Spirit."
...
PI- Aren't you going down the path of Augustine's youth when you say: "if God is morally ambiguous Himself"? Augustine constructed his "imputation of sin" from that perspective where God toed-the-line of something higher and greater than himself (which doesn't exist). Not only is there no such "higher", God is not making judgments in his mind--he is loving mankind. The salvation he is working is more than virtual reality; and that's because the problem is more than a virtual problem.
Triskal says: "Sin enslaves us and keeps us craving more," Right! Sin leads to death, leads to sin, etc. The cycle is broken by Christ on the cross. Those who are born again have to confess their sins (a kind of re-baptism into Christ's death) and know that their old man IS dead, and that they do have the power to will to follow the Spirit. They are no longer slaves to sin. But if they follow sin, it will enslave them in the snares of death. Sin, someone said, is ONTOLOGICAL SUICIDE! Wandering away from LIFE is death!!! But..."thanks be to God!"
PotOnWheel
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TCTBU
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 9/2/2001 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi peoples.
This was the first topic I've read where I've actually sort of felt qualified enough to answer. (You people astound me!)
Curious, I think I'll just basically respond to your question(s).
Ok, first I'll say what is constantly expressed throughout this website. That is, that in order for God to create something which could truly love him, He had to give that creation freedom of choice. The freedom to hate him, or to love him. Thus, the freedom to go against His wishes, for evidently, he does wish us to love him. This is why we have the capacity for both good and evil.
Now going into the question, "...Why can't He just accept everyone, sin and all, without the necessity of Christ's sacrifice?" To me, it seems like we haven't yet gone to the most basic question. Perhaps, I am wrong, but I think before we ask these questions, we need to ask, "Why is 'sin' (that which the Bible describes) wrong?" Once we answer this question, I think the reason for God's intolerance of sin becomes evident. And to me, the answer is that what partly makes up God's character is that He is truly good. And if goodness is part of God's character, it is innate in God, right? And if God is eternal, thus His characteristic of Goodness is also eternal.
Now, if the opposite of good, is evil and if sin is evil (which it is, for the Bible makes that clear) then sin can be in no way a part of God. It would make His character contradictory and choatic. Thus making any possible relationship w/ God on our part impossible.
Why can't God tolerate sin in man if he created man to have the capacity to sin? God created man w/ the freedom to choose good or evil, life or death, Him or not Him. And man chose the latter, thus separating himself from God.
And this is where God's love comes in. B/c of God's love for His creation and his forgiveness, suffice to say - His Goodness - He made it possible for man to once again make a choice to become unified w/ God. The only way, or at least the way that he chose, was to offer himself [Jesus], that which was completely in unity w/ him, as the sacrifice. Making us, once again, stainless. Grace.
I am sorry if I'm repeating a lot that has already been stated. My main thought was to specificy "why sin is sin" and then on that basis give my opinion on why God can't tolerate sin. I agree w/ basically everything that has previously been said, I just wanted to add that.
Thanx for listening.
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/3/2001 12:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Curious:"In other words, why can't God tolerate the presence of sin?"
While reading through the postings on this thread I got a picture in regard to the question of why God can't tolerate sin. The difference between God and evil is similar to the difference between day and night. You can't have daytime if it's nighttime and darkness can't exist in the light. Jesus was the bridge, the gulf between the two where it was made possible for us to be transformed from our sinful nature (in this analogy the nighttime) to become renewed and reborn and enter into the light (the daytime).
God is the daytime (the light), Jesus came to earth to stand in the gap thus he is the twilight (the bridge), and evil is the nighttime (the darkness).
What do you think of this analogy in answering the question?
trosie
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 9/4/2001 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Great analogy Trosie! 
Here's an excerpt from Lewis' book the Problem of pain.
quote:
Love can forbear, and Love can forgive... but love can never be reconciled to an unlovely object... He can never therefore be reconciled to your sin, because sin itself is incapable of being altered; but he may be reconciled to your person, because that may be restored.
-Traherne. Centuries of Meditation, II, 30.
"Tell, is there a man who dares to raise his hand and throw a stone,
I’d hang him high and laugh to see him die alone." –Notre dame de Paris
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 9/24/2001 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | If we could see SIN for what it really is, and God's holiness for what it is, I think the answer to this question would be self-evident. As it is, we are so accustomed to sin that it seems minor, and so removed from God's holiness that it seems prudish of God to be hung up on it.
Think of it this way. Sin is as antithetical to God as not breathing is to us. It's against his nature. It is also against OUR nature, though consistent with our fallen nature (which is why it is "fallen"). Sin destroys people, which is why God, who is love, is against it.
help ya?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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MrIndifference
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 9/24/2001 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | The way I look at it is that righteousness points to God and sin points away from God. God has already chosen us. It is up to us to accept or reject his proposition. To accept God is to accept a life of righteousness and visa versa to reject God is to live a life of sin. I don't so much see God sending us hell, or inviting us into heaven, but instead we as humans choose it ourselves through our lives, choices, and actions.
Mr I. | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 9/24/2001 7:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The way I look at it is that righteousness points to God and sin points away from God. God has already chosen us. It is up to us to accept or reject his proposition. To accept God is to accept a life of righteousness and visa versa to reject God is to live a life of sin. I don't so much see God sending us hell, or inviting us into heaven, but instead we as humans choose it ourselves through our lives, choices, and actions.
I agree with the gist of this, but I would say that no one really lives "a life of righteousness" because we all miss the mark and are riddled with sin, in spite of our best efforts. If we are unaware of our own sin, or unwilling to recognize it, I think in the end it becomes less and less likely that we will "choose" God.
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 9/25/2001 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I agree with the gist of this, but I would say that no one really lives "a life of righteousness" because we all miss the mark and are riddled with sin, in spite of our best efforts.
Of course, no one is perfect, that is of course besides Jesus Christ, but we are able to choose righteousness over sin. By choosing Christ, He has given us the chance to live righteous lives, but it is through our choice to choose His gift. There is a difference between sin and sins. We may sin without living is sin. Who do we serve God or Sin?
Mr I. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2001 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Mr I said: quote:
Of course, no one is perfect, that is of course besides Jesus Christ, but we are able to choose righteousness over sin. By choosing Christ, He has given us the chance to live righteous lives, but it is through our choice to choose His gift. There is a difference between sin and sins. We may sin without living is sin. Who do we serve God or Sin?
Mr I.
Along that line, maybe I could post something pretty thick-reading. But good. (If I can find the thread I'm thinking of I might post it one other place too.) It is about God using us as his hands and us having God as our head. (I'm using jsut a bit of license in saying it that way--but I think I like it!)
==================================
From (a Lutheran) Lars Thunberg's "Man and Cosmos: The Vision of St. Maximus the Confessor" (writing about a 6th century Greek monastic and theologian who was martyred along with a Latin Pope), Chapter 5 - The Natural-Social Dimension.
This . . . Maximus affirms in Letter 2, where he says that deifying charity permits a reciprocal attribution (antidosis chetike) between those who are being united, i.e., God and man, in a communication (communicatio idiomatum) similar to that between the two natures in Christ. Maximus writes:
..."For the most perfect work of charity and the culmination
...of its activity is to attain, through a reciprocal
...attribution, that the attributes of those whom it unites
...pass from one to the other, and likewise the names of
...these qualities, and that it makes man act and appear as
...God, through the one and unchangeable decision and motion
...of will on both sides, such as we see it in Abraham and
...the other saints. And this is perhaps what is said about
...the person of God: "In the hands of the prophets I have
...made myself similar" [Hos. 12:10] to express how God, though
...the unitive practice of virtue, makes Himself conform with
...everyone due to His great love for human beings. For the
..."hand" of every just person is His virtuous practice -- in
...which and through which God receives likeness unto men."
The christological convictions of the councils of Chalcedon and Constantinople (of the years 451 and 553) are here translated to the level of the virtues in the sense that human integration and unification, established through a correct relation to God as goal, is maintained and confessed to the same extent that human differentiations are also maintained, through an act of divine-human mutual appropriation. The natural-social dimension is thus not neglected but affirmed precisely within the relationship in which it is transcended. Such a dialectic is characteristic of Maximus.
In order not to forget the social aspect of this dimension, however, in reference also to Maximus's admirable skill in keeping all things together in his vision, let us end this chapter with another quotation, one dealing with love for one's neighbor. It is taken from Liber Asceticus 8 :
..."For those who are created after the image of God and are
...motivated by reason [logos, with reference to man as a
...rational being, but through this also to the logos of his
...nature, common to all mankind], who are thought worthy of
...knowledge of God and receive their law from Him, it is
...possible not to repulse those who cause them grief and to
...love those who have them. Hence when the Lord says: "Love
...your enemies; do good to them that hate you," he does not
...command the impossible, but clearly what is possible, for
...He would not otherwise rebuke the transgressor. The Lord
...Himself makes it clear and has shown it to us by His very
...works; and so too all His disciples, who strove till death
...for love of their neighbor and prayed fervently for those
...who killed them. But since we are lovers of material things,
...and of pleasure, preferring them above the commandment, we
...are not then able to love those who hate us, being worse
...disposed than beasts and creeping things. And that is why,
...not being able to follow in the steps of God, we are likewise
...unable to know His purpose, so that we might receive strength."
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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