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chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 11/23/2001 1:27 PM (GMT -6)

What do you think of liturgy? Is it something that God wants us to have a part in? Is liturgy good for us? Does the unity that comes from liturgy outweigh its drawbacks? Is there a chance that Woodland Hills would ever adopt a liturgy for its services?

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

pia†desideria
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301

Posted 11/24/2001 8:28 AM (GMT -6)

I’m a fan of liturgy. Only time it ever shows up in WHC is in words of institution in communion, and that only shows up about twice a year. I think that Doc’s altar calls are achieving a pseudo-liturgical status in our service. I doubt that liturgy will ever be used in WHC other than these exceptions and stretches.

Stanley Grenz presented a paper on evangelicalism as a centered (defined positively as the core we share) rather than bounded set (defined negatively as what we reject). I think the lack of liturgy and appreciation for the creeds within evangelicalism contributes to a negative self-understanding as a bounded set—i.e. we are know we are evangelical because we reject cigar-smokers or open theists, or whatever.

Well, I suspect I am really going against the grain on this one. Let me have it. pia

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The glory of God is the human being fully alive § Irenaeus

Edited by - pia†desideria on 11/24/2001 1:32:06 PM

pia†desideria
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301

Posted 11/24/2001 8:45 AM (GMT -6)

I also think that an appreciation for liturgy is important if you’re interested in any eccumenical dialogue. Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and others follow the liturgical church year. Evangelicals, on the other hand, march to the tune of their own drummer (the Pastor). We have our reasons, but that doesn’t excuse our ignorance of and appreciation for what the rest of the Church is up to. pia

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The glory of God is the human being fully alive § Irenaeus

whasssuuuppp
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210

Posted 11/24/2001 10:23 AM (GMT -6)

Pia:

quote:
Stanley Grenz presented a paper on evangelicalism as a centered (defined positively as the core we share) rather than bounded set (defined negatively as what we reject).

Wow, that statement reminds me so much of the Contemporary Theology class I had from Roger Olson several years ago! It must be because they write books together. Seriously, though, that definition is incredibly important, and I think it (supposedly) separates fundamentalism from evangelicalism. But even the title of the ETS conference (defining our boundaries, right?) makes me wonder what's up with evangelcalism, and where it's moving.

quote:
I think the lack of liturgy and appreciation for the creeds within evangelicalism contributes to a negative self-understanding as a bounded set—i.e. we are know we are evangelical because we reject cigar-smokers or open theists, or whatever.

Or r-rated movies, or wine-drinking, or the use of certain words, or listening to certain music, or...you name it.

quote:
Well, I suspect I am really going against the grain on this one.

On this site? Nah...

***********************

If we are going to change the world at all we must first be a little crazy.
-Wislawa

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/24/2001 7:48 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and others follow the liturgical church year

Sometimes I miss this part of the Catholic faith, especially in the preparation of Christmas and Easter.

quote:
Well, I suspect I am really going against the grain on this one. Let me have it. pia

I agree with Whasssuuuppp's reply, "Nah...

"

trosie

Mitten
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 8

Posted 11/25/2001 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

My mother's parents are Catholic. I used to go to mass with them when I was little. I didn't really understand anything. For me I feel what is the purpose for it.

love,
Mitten

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/25/2001 11:51 AM (GMT -6)

Liturgy at a Mennonite Church? By missionaries?

Ya, Gewiss! (Oh, that's right, the service was in English and not in Swiss.)

Missionaries from Ivory Coast talked about a church that was indigenous, very. So much in fact that its founding was the work of a native. The story is wonderful; but I'll fast forward to the topic.

The liturgy that the Children's Sermon taught is what the Harris Church in I.C. does on Sunday. The lady giving the CH.S. asked the kids down front of the Mennonite church if their family cam straight to church--which they NEVER do in I.C.--or if they all went first to the pastor's home and sang and danced (OK, maybe if you are Swedish Baptist or Swiss Mennonite you "shuffle.") the pastor to church en-mass. Then the little boys danced down and around to the right-rear of the congregation, and the little girls to the left rear, waving their tissues (which wipe hot faces in I.C. too), and then converged in the middle rear of the church to bring the pastor to the front. (As an aside, let me mention that while some Indiana Mennonites don't have a tradition of sitting genders on separate sides, the woman missionaries girl hood church in Lancaster, PA did; so going cross-cultural for her on this was easy!)

What do YOU see symbolized, and acted out in that? It IS liturgy.

First, let me also mention what she said about WHY they all wear white robes to Church on Sundays. (Everyone wears robes all the time--they are not in a Bible play...just in Africa.) Two reasons were given, of many: first, since they know that they will have white robes in heaven, they want to do it now too, in anticipation. (I'll add to that in a second.); and second, it removes all the distinction of who is rich enough to have more changes of clothes in a poor society.

What do the clothes mean, liturgically? I mean, what are they SAYING in what they are doing, and what REALITIES are being acted out. How is "thy kingdom come" being brought to bear? The clothes issue makes the unity of the Body visible. It also helps to build that unity rather than giving an opportunity to the devil; one that they experience to be a real threat. Finally, it inaugurates each Sunday the real experience that "where two or three of you are gathered in my name..." And the "liturgical" clothes merge with the meaning of the procession to church as all, together, and singing spiritual songs move through the earth that is redeemed in Christ's death and resurrection to the gathering of the Saints alive where they meet the Saints in heaven. (Which even old Protestant hymns talk about!)

Symbol and symbolized are joined. Despite what some writer said, that gets quoted on this board, it is misleading to separate "map" and "territory."

Maybe I can find more to add.

PoW

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/25/2001 12:19 PM (GMT -6)

In the above post I hope that I surprised (entertained?) some folks by addressing liturgy from the position, not so much of words and word patterns, but as objects, selves, movement, places in space, etc. It pays to keep one's eyes open at a liturgical service, and ones imagination flexible. so, much of what I had to offer to the discussion was external.

Here I want to input something internal. In the 70s I was part of a Charismatic upstart church that met downstairs of a mall in Roseville. Honestly, as free-form as we styled ourselves to be, we could also recognize easily that over time we adopted a certain order, a certain amount of emphasis here, linkages there, etc. We had, very much in spite of ourselves, become liturgical.

Here is something internal. Various spiritual disciplines, group traditions, personal habits. . .various circumspect and thoughtful orders of things are hit upon, are tried with slight variations, are settled upon as to necessary-core and versatility interchangeable but also necessary in some form, and finally as worth adding when called for. These get discovered. Much is handed down. (The Psalms evidences in its groupings which psalms were sung together at times.) Everything is in flux. Changes occur, and should.

Let meLINK here a thread where the INSIDE activity of a particular traditional service is discussed: the Vespers and Matins evening serices in Eastern Orthodoxy. (See 3rd and 4th poosts; though the Protestant TAIZE liturgy in the 1st post is popular now too!) If you read it and chart with the author the inner path you might ask yourself (1) are their benefits to proceeding in that order, and whether one step is necessary as a help on many occasions or for many persons before moving onto the next (e.g., leaving one's gifts at the altar and going to the one that has offended you; etc.), and (2) if you can think of a way to follow a similar inner path using "tools" that you and your church know. If you do so, then you have built a liturgy!!! Congratulations.

(o)

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/25/2001 5:22:26 PM

Cibertus
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 57

Posted 11/27/2001 9:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Liturgy at a Mennonite Church? By missionaries?

Ya, Gewiss!

Why is that so astounding to you?

Thanks for the info. It is helpful for me since I am now exploring the more visual and symbolic side of my self and the world.

What Mennonite church was this and where was it located? I'm looking to get out of Dodge along with maybe searching for an excuse to do something Nomadic.

Cibertus

Anabaptists demonstrate a total lack of intelligence. There is nothing to be learned from their ideas.--John Calvin

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/27/2001 12:32 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Cibertus

What Mennonite church was this and where was it located? I'm looking to get out of Dodge. . .

That was their annual Missions Sunday. So...there were jokes alluding to how this all didn't happen all the time. (very humourous)

MANY denominations have gone through the "worship wars." They can tell you some of the churches in their fallowship that would be interesting to visit.

(o)

pia†desideria
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301

Posted 11/27/2001 2:13 PM (GMT -6)

Hey chance, why are you asking about liturgy? Curious, pia

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
The glory of God is the human being fully alive § Irenaeus

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/27/2001 2:59 PM (GMT -6)

When I was at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas, I remember one of my favorite professors, Richard Hanner (or as we called him, Haney), getting up on the platform and in his enthusiastic manner, preach at the top of his lungs, "It's not liturgy that is dead! It's people that are dead.!!" I think he was quoting Luther.

I think it was Jack Deere who said that there are Christians that he knew who will go to great lenghts to "protect the Word-of-God" in all of its inerrancy (got to have all the right doctrines, etc) and yet when it came to the fruit of the Spirit manifested in their corporate and personal lives, these people were dead. I think this is similar to what Haney said.

Brandon

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/27/2001 3:11 PM (GMT -6)

Pia I LOVE your quote!!!!!!

quote:
The glory of God is the human being fully alive § Irenaeus

(o)

chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 11/28/2001 5:44 PM (GMT -6)

I was just thinking, pia, that liturgy is such an ordered way of worship and as POW has pointed out every group ends up developing some type of order or liturgy over time. Is there a liturgy that Christ wants us to follow or does He really care at all? Is EO worship what God wants us to do? I know God doesn't want us to do everything in a totally spontaneous or chaotic way. God seems to want order that allows for some freedom within that ordered structure.

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/29/2001 12:16 AM (GMT -6)

Chance asks: Is EO worship what God wants us to do?

THE EO liturgy is largly intact from when the church pretty young. But it is a myth that says it doesn't change. (One big arguement was between the big-church folks and those monastics -- big-church wanted hymn-verses to help explain the psalms and the monastics already knew the meaning, wanted to just worship, and found all the "sticheria" to be distracting.) But going backwards from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Liturgy of St. Jame, and of St. Basil, or the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts (by a western Pope, but only used in the East) is interesting.

I'd say that anyone who reads this board should get literate about what takes place in liturgy. Artists study other artists. It does not keep them from makeing their own work.

What I find particuarly engrossing is the kinds of things that Christians have found to be dynamicly productive, and true, in worship. Again, you can look to the new, but you risk malpractice (in two ways) if you neglect the old.

PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

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