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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/28/2002 3:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi:
My wife was instrumental(along with a friend of her's, D.) in leading another friend of her's(K.) to Christ about a month ago. Recently(last night) while they (D. & K.) were driving to a church sponsored young couples event with their husbands the subject of tithing came up and the husband of D. began a tirade about Christians who don't tithe to their churches. K. (along with her unsaved husband) found this very upseting, to the point of thinking that we all(i.e. the chuch) really have a hidden agenda regarding her money and THAT was the real reason for our interest in her. Neither K. or her husband were raised with any signifigant contact with the church so tithing was a totally new concept to them. This has threatened her fragile relationship with Christ and I am a little concerned for her. I suggested that I wasn't totally convinced tithing was a new testament concept and that God isn't interested in what we give under obligation and as her relationship with God developes, her desire to give will increase proportionately. In conversations with others, I have been told my view is incorrect and although D.'s husband's tirade was innapropriate, tithing IS for the Church.
Anyway, what do you feel is the correct view?
Please pray for K., she has many issues to deal with, but her conversion was definately a life changing event for her and her family.
Rob
Edited by - still_unsure on 01/28/2002 8:47:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 1/28/2002 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | That's a tough situation, but I agree with your view. There is no New Testament command to "tithe"...we are no longer under the law but under grace. It's amazing that people still forget that! Anyway, I think it's natural that Christians will want to give. If they decide to commit to a specific tithe, as long as they do it out of a grateful, cheerful, heart, wonderful! But what and when and how to give is something a believer should pray about and decide with God, and in K's case, she needs to involve her husband in that decision too.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 1/28/2002 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with both of your views regarding tithing as far as it NOT being a New Testament law. It has been a TOTAL turn off to many people who I have talked to when the topic of tithing is brought up. The best idea I ever heard about in the area of giving was when a friend of mine had told me a few years back that Doc had once preached a sermon on giving WHEREVER God laid it on a person's heart. For instance, if a person was down on their funds then he said to give to this person instead of to the church. My friend's explanation of Doc's sermon made so much sense to me!
Empiress:
quote:
do it out of a grateful, cheerful, heart, wonderful! But what and when and how to give is something a believer should pray about and decide with God
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown | | Back to Top | | |
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Ophelia
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 1/28/2002 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | There is no New Testament command to "tithe"...
You are right. The Old Covenant asked for 10% from us, the New Covenant asks for our all. We are to give our lives. Anyone who loses his life will save it, and those who save their lives will lose it.
I think they had it a lot easier under the Old Covenant, wouldn't you agree?
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/29/2002 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello all,
I think it's worth noting that tithing goes back well before the Mosaic covenant; Abraham gave a tithe to Melchez...Melkizi...um...that guy! (that post POW did on fixing English spelling sure sounds interesting!)
Anyway, it's VERY heavily theologically weighted, as far as I'm concerned. The concept of the tithe is something more than just "Oh, and God, here's your part". It's much deeper than that. For that matter, sacrifice and other things were instituted or at least known, understood and practiced before the Mosaic covenant.
I prefer to start with a tithe, though, as noted it isn't commanded in the NT, because it's a starting point. More importantly, a starting point in giving (another theological concept) that picks up on what Abraham did long before Moses came along. This is just me, though.
For the conversation,
Starkman
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/31/2002 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Heres my take. Read Friesen's book, "Decision Making and the Will of God." It got a five out of five stars from all seven reviewers at Amazon.com.
Amazon.com.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1576733211/qid=1012535203/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/103-0417095-0173453
The book is somewhat criticized by the authors of "The Openness of God" because Friesen and Maxson still say that there is some divine blueprint, but we just can't know it. So, accordingly, we must take the "Way of Wisdom" (paraphrased). By this they mean that we should not look at the Bible as a divine map but should see it, as well as circumstances, etc, as more like a compass. See the difference?
Anyhoo, they have a section on tithing that I think is excellent.
For starters, there is a continuity from the Old to the New Testament when it comes to tithing. Yet it is not in tithing per se but in giving.
Tithing was looked at more as a "temple tax" in the Old Testament, for the up keep of the temple and priestly duties, etc. It was something you were supposed to give. You really didn't have a choice. That is not continuous in the New Testament.
Secondly, according to some scholars and as Freisen and Maxson point out, there was suppose to be more than 10% in tithing. One would have had to give somewhere's up to 33% or more in their tithing practices.
As one can clearly see, with the temple no longer around, there is no such need for a such a system. Yet, when we approach the New Testament, there are numerous statements on giving. Everything from giving from a cheerful heart to giving out of the abundance of your resources (which is in contrast to the earlier tithing system).
Thirdly, imagine that you make $100 000 a year. For one to give 10% of that, it is not much of a sacrifice. One can still live comfortably with $90 000. Yet, image if you are a single mother who makes $10 000 a year and you had to give 10%. That would really put you in a bind. Imagine feeling the pressure and guilt, (corporately, from the church, or personally like in conversations in still_unsure's post)to give. Sorry, but in my mind, that is legalism and in my thinking not the mind of God in such matters.
Should the church provide opportunities to give? Yes. But there should be no pressure corporately or otherwise.
Brandon
"The Bible says, that one should 'give from a cheerful heart.' But around here we'll take any kind!--Dr. Jeffery Seif at a Christ For the Nations 11:00am student body meeting quoting a pastor just before taking up the offering.
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/31/2002 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon
it's now your responsibility to
demonstrate that you're like everyone
else - or different;
you are on the bead EVERY time
I hear your voice. So debunk
my esteem for you; help me to see that
you are a sinful wretch like all of us ...
or else
just keep speaking
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 2/1/2002 1:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
quote:
imagine that you make $100 000 a year. For one to give 10% of that, it is not much of a sacrifice. One can still live comfortably with $90 000. Yet, image if you are a single mother who makes $10 000 a year and you had to give 10%. That would really put you in a bind. Imagine feeling the pressure and guilt, (corporately, from the church, or personally like in conversations in still_unsure's post)to give. Sorry, but in my mind, that is legalism and in my thinking not the mind of God in such matters.
Should the church provide opportunities to give? Yes. But there should be no pressure corporately or otherwise.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!Well put brother! This reminded me of the story of the woman who put her last coin in for her offering. Jesus' was impressed with her HEART not the AMOUNT she gave.
I want to share one of the most appalling things I ever heard before an offering plate was passed around. The pastor, at a church I was visiting, told everyone to take out their wallets and hold up the biggest dollar bill they had in their wallets. Then he proceeded to tell them that IF they put this bill in the offering plate God would bless them that much. The question that I thought of was what if a person had NO money in their wallet, was God not going to bless them? Or what if God had laid a different dollar amount on their heart to give?
Perhaps the man meant well but this particular episode turned one of my brothers so off that he doesn't go to any church anymore. He universalized this episode and now stays away from church. He began to get suspicious of what church was all about.
Money and tithing is a very delicate issue which can be a very hurtful if handled wrongly. I really appreciated what you said, Brandon, especially about legalism.
Thanks,
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown
Edited by - trosie on 02/01/2002 06:56:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/2/2002 1:29 PM (GMT -6) | | fr. patmos!
 , 
Does our agreement mean that I am not a wretch? Thanks my brother. 
Brandon
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/2/2002 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Trosie and still_unsure.
Here is somewhat of another take on this issue.
Paul says in Phillipians that some preached the Gospel for "selfish ambition." The motives were impure but the Christ was still preached.
Now when I first came into the faith, I myself made a commitment when I went to a "healing service" here in my city at the age of 13. The person who preached was not an adult but an eleven year old kid named "Micheal Lord" from the United States. To tell you the truth, that service was more like a circus act  or the "travelling salesman" of the south who would sell fake medicines and make naive hopeful's believe that they would be healed of their malady if they would but swallow the godforsaken pharmacon.
I mean this whole fiasco was a setup. I know this in hindsight, because a year or so later, a man who was apparently "healed" the year before was back again for another healing of the same ailment, (supposed back problems) and Little Micheal Lord was more than ready to ride 'em like a pony to show that God had miraculously delivered the poor soul.
Either way, as god-awful as that sham was, I had my first encounter with the living Christ as a result of it. I wanted to know who He was more intimately. My first "theological book" (or so I thought for apologetical purposes to be used in response to my still freaky isolationist brother) was a psychology book by Dr. Bruce Narramore. HA! HA! HA!
Those were the days. I am so glad I have moved past the milk to more meat.
Now in a small book by Richard Mouw entitled, "Consulting the Faithful: What Christian Intellectuals Can Learn from Popular Religion" Mouw tells the story in the beginning of how a enthusiastic CEO, new to the faith, exclaimed how Jesus was, "my CEO." Sooner or later, we would expect this new convert to move deeper into the faith, but for now, Mouw is content on allowing this person to swim in ankle deep theology until he is ready to move on to deeper waters.
My point is, is that I am of the belief that God can use just about anything, flawed broken vessels, his fan club--the church, to bring people to Him. While I don't condone such antics as that of popular TV evangelists and the tent revivalists and the like, all I'm saying is that God can use whatever he likes.
Don't worry about our brother's and sistaaars spiritual well being in one sense,(that would be tedious wouldn't it?). That's the Holy Spirit's job. In another sense lets go make disciples (and not just converts) catechizing them in the faith. That may mean bringing them in the fold through the open table of communion or baptism. With prayer and love, they'll grow.
See,www.brow.on.ca/Books/Learners/LearnersIntro.html
Brandon
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 2/4/2002 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Brandon, for the insight. You make some excellent points and I'm going to check the Friesen's book, it sounds very good. Thanks to everyone else who posted and prayed for K. She met with her Pastor and he fells pretty much the same as all of you. She has rebounded from this and is doing well. Thanks again,
Rob.
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/4/2002 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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