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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 12/30/2001 4:47 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Is drinking ok for christians? what about smoking? what about medical marijuana? how bout marijuana in general? anybody got anything?
June
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/30/2001 9:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is drinking ok for christians?
Yes. Drinking alcohol is OK. What would make you think that it isn't?
quote:
what about smoking?
Yes. What would make you think that it isn't?
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 12/31/2001 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | what seperates christians from the world then? when i see a christian smoke or drink i wonder what their problem is and why they can't quit. non-christians also assume that christians should not smoke or drink. so when they seem them doing it, it causes them to stumble.
June
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 12/31/2001 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
what seperates christians from the world then
June,
A quick answer, faith in Jesus.
As far as drinking and smoking is concerned I would say moderation is the key. It can be argued that smoking, because of the health risks, should not be done even in moderation. Use of recreational drugs should be limited to those that are legal. I think it was said somewhere that the Kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
We don't want to cause a brother to stumble, so that best thing we can do is teach them correct thinking about these kinds of issues. For us to simply avoid that things that "cause" them stumble does not lift them up and make them stronger. Should an alcoholic avoid alcohol, yes. Should a jaywalker avoid the street, yes . Both could end you up in the gutter, dead.
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/31/2001 2:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Cultural differences make the issue complicated, too. For instance, in some countries kids grow up with wine at meals. They'd never think in terms of drinking as we do in America; we associate beer with partying. That doesn't mean they don't abuse it as we do here, but that's not the point. Their framework is simply different than ours.
And most difficult, in my opinion, is that it's very hard for a Christian to accept the nudging of the Holy Spirit telling him YOU cannot do this. It doesn't matter what the other fellow (Christian) is doing, it's that YOU cannot do this. We have a horrible time with that. But the facts are that God will allow some Christians to drink (maybe only for a while) and others not to (maybe for only a while). But ultimately, it is that "dying to self" that is so hard to face.
If God tells you personally "You can't do this or that", then you and you alone must be man/woman enough to face that and obey God. I don't drink because I believe, except for cooking with wine, that it is just best to abstain. But that didn't come easy. I had my struggle with the very issue I've just mentioned above.
Always, always, always, find what God is saying in His Word and in your spirit. Obey that and be strong to forget what the other fellow brethren are doing!
Starkman
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 12/31/2001 8:32 PM (GMT -6) | | The Bible doesn't specifically say anything that would indicate drinking as a sin, however it does say that it's wrong if it leads to getting drunk. God doesn't like it when we harm our bodies with things that accomplish nothing. There's nothing wrong with taking drugs for medical purposes if they help, and if they don't lead to taking them needlessly. My stance on the whole issue is whether or not God wants YOU personally to stay away from those things. While some people may be able to have a few drinks once in a while in a social setting without it leading to alcoholism, others may be prone towards addiction. I have always and will always stay away from smoking and drinking. I'm the type of person that gets addicted to things very easily.
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
Edited by - Triskal on 01/01/2002 01:34:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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dash
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 1/1/2002 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is a different spin on the topic. I have known quite a few Christians who considered themselves more Christlike or righteous because they don't drink, pointing toward verses like Eph 5:18. Is this a sin?
Jared
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 1/1/2002 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | I think it is totally wrong for christians to drink in the presence of people who don't know they are christians. sure you might be okay with it but i guarantee it's causing those looking at you to consider you a hypocrite.
June
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/1/2002 8:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think it is totally wrong for christians to drink in the presence of people who don't know they are christians. sure you might be okay with it but i guarantee it's causing those looking at you to consider you a hypocrite.
This is a cultural thing as Starkman pointed out. America has a stigma against drinking, and it wouldn't be wise to hang out in bars, blending in with the world one intends to minister to. However, in other settings, drinking is completely normal and people wouldn't look at the Christian as being a hypocrit. Once again: LET THE SPIRIT LEAD YOU.
And for people who say they are more holy for abstaining, they must forget that at the end of the day, all of God's workers will get the same wages (Matthew 20:1-16).
--Jewgrass
"If a Calvinist wants to say that man can only choose the lesser of two evils then that is fine. In that case accepting Jesus Christ would be a lesser evil than going to hell." --Laurence Vance | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/1/2002 9:54 PM (GMT -6) | | June, How do you explain Jesus' miracle of turning water into wine? If it is wrong for Christians to drink wine, why would he do that? Do you think Jesus is capable of "setting a bad example"?
As far as I know the Bible doesn't say anything about smoking of any kind. Is it best for Christians to avoid doing things that eventually kill them? Yes, it is best for human beings of every religious bent to avoid things that lead to death. Now if you want to talk about what things are really dangerous, you would have to discuss the risk of being overweight (diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure kills), the risk of working too hard (stress kills), the risk of working too little (lack of exercise kills), the risk of living in the city (pollution kills), the risk of living in the country (pesticides kill), the risk of cars and motorcycles and rollerblades and pretty much anything with wheels (accidents kill), the risk of a long morning commute driving into the sun in traffic (stress again), the risk of too much money (excess of all sorts kills), the risk of too little money (poverty kills), the risk of shaking hands (fastest spread of germs that can kill)...
Should Christians have a "policy" on any of these things? If I am hanging out with someone who is overweight, and we are both eating a piece of cheesecake together, should Christians or non-Christians look askance, and consider me a hypocrite? Should I hang out with someone who is dying of cancer or emphysema, due to their smoking? Should I hang out with overweight people at all? Should I have a drink? Should I have a piece of cheesecake? Do I dare to eat a peach? (Sorry, I just slipped into "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" by T. S. Eliot.)
If I were at a party that Jesus was at, and we ran out of wine, and he made some more, should I have some?
Jewgrass said: quote:
America has a stigma against drinking, and it wouldn't be wise to hang out in bars, blending in with the world one intends to minister to.
Semeia: The Jews had a stigma against tax collectors and prostitutes, and yet these are the very people that Jesus chose to hang out with. He seemed almost to seek out people who were stigmatized, and embrace them, and love them, and heal them. Of course the Pharisees judged him harshly for it, and eventually killed him. By the wisdom of the world it was unwise--but by the wisdom of God the very salvation of the world depended on it.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 01/02/2002 03:03:19 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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excommunicated
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/1/2002 11:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Two times so far we people have comment on the appearance of hypocrisy:
June said:
quote:
sure you might be okay with it but i guarantee it's causing those looking at you to consider you a hypocrite.
Jewgrass said:
quote:
However, in other settings, drinking is completely normal and people wouldn't look at the Christian as being a hypocrit.
But note, both June and Jewgrass are concerned with the appearance of hypocrisy. To be a hypocrite is to have a discrepancy between what’s on the inside and what’s on the outside, to have a discrepancy between how someone appears and how someone is. Why should we care so much what other Christians think about us? Who are we trying to please God or men? Who are we trying to impress? Who should it matter to that we are a hypocrite God or others? Does it matter if we really are a hypocrite, or only whether other people see us as one or not? To place the emphasis on “those looking at you” and putting on a certain type of performance with the goal that “people wouldn’t look at the Christian as being a hypocrit” is to already be thinking like a hypocrite! Who cares how it looks. If you want to drink drink. If you want to drink with the “wrong” crowd drink with them and maybe they’ll turn out to be stupidly and uncannily like the “right” crowd. They both need each other to appear how they both want to appear. It’s only when you start crossing the wires that what’s really inside people shows. And sometimes we’re disappointed because people we were impressed with turn out to do things you hoped they’d not have done. Oh well…
quote:
Once again: LET THE SPIRIT LEAD YOU.
On this topic I would recommend the chapter entitled “Thirst” in St. Anne Lamotts book Traveling Mercies. She is a woman who has plenty of experience being lead by The Spirit and being lead by the spirits. (get it? Spirits as in alcohol? I stole that from St. Anne). Her conversion story at the beginning of the book will floor you as well.
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/2/2002 4:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia:
quote:
The Jews had a stigma against tax collectors and prostitutes, and yet these are the very people that Jesus chose to hang out with.
How many things can we possibly disagree on Semeia? 
Jesus did not take part in their sin. We should not go and seek out drinking buddies in bars and blend in with them. We should go and minister to them and evangelize. What was Jesus' purpose in eating with sinners? Having a good time? No! In fact, Jesus was there to show them the truth and offer forgiveness and salvation. When we simply go and blend in with the world, we are not doing the same thing as Jesus. Instead we are neglecting what God wills for every Christian.
Excommunicated:
quote:
Why should we care so much what other Christians think about us? Who are we trying to please God or men? Who are we trying to impress? Who should it matter to that we are a hypocrite God or others? Does it matter if we really are a hypocrite, or only whether other people see us as one or not?
We should care what other people think about us because we are representatives of God and if they view us a hypocritical, double-faced, duplicitous sinners, they will not respond to the message we wish to share: forgiveness through Christ's blood. Just like Paul did not want to cause his Christian brothers to stumble by eating meat sacrificed to idols, we should flee from doing that which causes fellow Christians to stumble (possible drinking) or causes non-believers to ignore our testimony (possibly drinking).
Again, I say, LET THE SPIRIT LEAD YOU.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/2/2002 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass said: quote:
How many things can we possibly disagree on Semeia?
Semeia: How high can we count?
Jewgrass said: quote:
Semeia:
quote:
The Jews had a stigma against tax collectors and prostitutes, and yet these are the very people that Jesus chose to hang out with.
Jesus did not take part in their sin. We should not go and seek out drinking buddies in bars and blend in with them. We should go and minister to them and evangelize. What was Jesus' purpose in eating with sinners? Having a good time? No! In fact, Jesus was there to show them the truth and offer forgiveness and salvation. When we simply go and blend in with the world, we are not doing the same thing as Jesus. Instead we are neglecting what God wills for every Christian.
Semeia: I hear you as assuming that if we go and make true friends and have drinks with people in a bar that we are somehow "blending" in with them.
I will answer this with what Jesus said to the Pharisees:
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Semeia: If Jesus were here today do you believe he would only go into the bars to preach? Surely the Pharisees knew the difference between preaching and friendship. They themselves would have no problem preaching to tax collectors and prostitutes. They were upset with Jesus because he fellowshipped with sinners; he befriended them; he drank with them. He actually became their friend, in the deep sense of that word. Jesus went and had dinner at a tax collector's house--which made the Pharisees crazy! But "wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Jesus was all about making true friends. And NOT for the purpose of "evangelizing" them. He really just wants friends. And being such a good friend He really wants the best for his friends - he wants to make us whole.
Even the worst sinner can tell the difference between true love in friendship, and evangelism. Wisdom knows which one works, and which one doesn't. The funny thing is, true friendship is the type of evangelism we're asked to do.
Now if you're saying that no matter what situation we're in, we should remain the salt of the earth, and not lose our saltiness, then I would agree with you.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/2/2002 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If Jesus were here today do you believe he would only go into the bars to preach? Surely the Pharisees knew the difference between preaching and friendship. They themselves would have no problem preaching to tax collectors and prostitutes. They were upset with Jesus because he fellowshipped with sinners; he befriended them; he drank with them. He actually became their friend, in the deep sense of that word. Jesus went and had dinner at a tax collector's house--which made the Pharisees crazy! But "wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Jesus was all about making true friends. And NOT for the purpose of "evangelizing" them. He really just wants friends. And being such a good friend He really wants the best for his friends - he wants to make us whole.
Even the worst sinner can tell the difference between true love in friendship, and evangelism. Wisdom knows which one works, and which one doesn't. The funny thing is, true friendship is the type of evangelism we're asked to do.
Now if you're saying that no matter what situation we're in, we should remain the salt of the earth, and not lose our saltiness, then I would agree with you.
True friendships? I couldn't agree with you more. Love is what makes Christian methods different from cult methods. Christians shouldn't do good deeds for heavenly rewards, they should do them out of love. I have non-Christian friends. Two nights ago I was in a bar with my two non-Christian cousins. I hung out with them, but did not drink. I feel strongly convicted that drinking in front of them, or in this Bible-belt area of America, would do nothing for me except hurt my ministry. True friendship yes? But to what end? I can be a true friend without drinking with them... especially if drinking would hurt my testimony. As I have said in the previous posts: LET THE SPIRIT LEAD YOU.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/2/2002 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass said:quote:
True friendships? I couldn't agree with you more. Love is what makes Christian methods different from cult methods. Christians shouldn't do good deeds for heavenly rewards, they should do them out of love. I have non-Christian friends. Two nights ago I was in a bar with my two non-Christian cousins. I hung out with them, but did not drink. I feel strongly convicted that drinking in front of them, or in this Bible-belt area of America, would do nothing for me except hurt my ministry. True friendship yes? But to what end? I can be a true friend without drinking with them... especially if drinking would hurt my testimony. As I have said in the previous posts: LET THE SPIRIT LEAD YOU.
Semeia: We've got some kind of record going here: I totally agree (and should have said it earlier) that we should "LET THE SPIRIT LEAD" US.
If you are an alcoholic and cannot drink in moderation, of course it would be best to not drink. And again, if you thought that your having a drink would be a stumbling block to someone, then by all means abstain.
But let me suggest a possibility. What if your non-Christian cousins, or people like them, were uninterested in Christianity because they believed that a person had to give up drinking completely to become a Christian? What if their idea of Christians was that of teetotalers, and of people who had to be perfect? What if this was their stumbling block? On the other hand, if you would drink away from your cousins, what message are you trying to send them by not drinking in front of them? Clearly it is not out of respect for some issue they have with drinking, because they themselves are drinking. Do you want them to believe that you don't drink? Isn't that a false impression? My understanding about not putting a stumbling block in front of someone is to avoid flaunting either one's greater freedom or one's greater devoutness. Why would a non-Christian who drinks think that a Christian shouldn't drink? Why would a Christian who drinks feel the need to NOT drink in front of non-Christians, other than to give the false impression that one DOESN'T drink?
And lastly, how does any of this square with the fact that Jesus clearly drank, people knew it, and he even went so far as to turn the water into wine at a party which obviously was already pretty far gone, because all the other wine had been drunk?
Was he stopped in this activity by the Pharisees' judgment of him as a "drunkard"?
This is not at all to suggest what YOU should do in any given situation. Only you have all of the relevant information about that situation. I just wanted to give you some more logic that may or may not be helpful to you.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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dash
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 1/2/2002 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We should care what other people think about us because we are representatives of God and if they view us a hypocritical, double-faced, duplicitous sinners, they will not respond to the message we wish to share: forgiveness through Christ's blood.
I don't think that it is our behavior toward non-beleivers that makes us seem hypocritcal. I believe it is our behavior toward other Christians. When we "put on our church clothes and church smile every Sunday morning," as Doc Boyd likes to put it, we are not being ourselves. When non-beleivers see how we act on Sundays, and then see how we "really" are the rest of the week, they will obviously get mixed messages. In fact, we are acting more like the Pharisees who dressed up to appear holy, but didn't work on fixing up their hearts. I am not saying that this is how all Christians act, but it is true at least part of the time. Any way you slice it, if we are just ourselves, all of the time, there is nothing that can appear hypocritical about us.
Let me know what you think.
Jared
"God is not a micro-manager"
Edited by - dash on 01/02/2002 5:07:04 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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geej
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/2/2002 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Personally, I think it can be a sin and not a sin for others. The question to ask is whether that drink is more important than Christ. For me, I say drink up as long as you don't get tanked up. If someone is offended by your drinking, don't drink when they are around..simple as that. If your consumption causes YOU to stumble then I would say that's pretty good indication that you should NOT drink.
In regard to smoking? I don't know. I do know that my dad smokes and it causes me difficulty breathing (asthmatic symptoms). It seems more like an inconsiderate behavior when done without the respect of others than a sin. The exception here is, of course, when that smoke is more important than Christ.
Geef, is another story. For us, I'd say it is a sin because Paul tells us we are supposed to follow the laws. Because pot is illegal in this country, I'd say its a sin...sort of.
Geej
On a side note, I know some non-Christians who stayed away from Christianity because they thought we were stuffy, boring, uptight Pharisees; they had told me that not drinking was part of it.
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 1/3/2002 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | drugs are bad,mmmmmkay?
Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 1/4/2002 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
drugs are bad,mmmmmkay?
marijuana is better for you than smoking. even the heaviest marijuana smokers smoke far less than cigarette smokers, making it less of a risk for lung cancer. marijuana has been proven over and over to be not addictive. smoking last i checked was. smoking has no positive features. marijuana can provide relief for people with glaucoma, arthritis, and can help cancer patients ease their pain and recover their appetite. cigarettes are okay, marijuana isn't?
June
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 1/4/2002 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | June:
marijuana is better for you than smoking. even the heaviest marijuana smokers smoke far less than cigarette smokers, making it less of a risk for lung cancer. marijuana has been proven over and over to be not addictive. smoking last i checked was. smoking has no positive features. marijuana can provide relief for people with glaucoma, arthritis, and can help cancer patients ease their pain and recover their appetite. cigarettes are okay, marijuana isn't?
Iconoclast:
The only argument I can think of that would suggest that marijuana is not OK is that in this country it is illegal. Jesus said we (people of that time) should obey the Pharisees because they occupy Moses’ seat (or something like that) although he says we best not actually be like them or do what they do - they being vipers and sons of hell and all.
Now it seems to me that if it were legal or one happened to be in Amsterdam or like William F. Buckley 200 miles off shore on his yacht then I have a hard time seeing any argument showing that there would be any prohibition against it. Paul says that nothing is unclean in and of itself.
The real question is, what about driving 2 miles over the speed limit? This is also clearly illegal with a somewhat similar sanction as smoking marijuana in our state - ya get a ticket.
OK - maybe the real question should be something like: in what situations does smoking marijuana proceed from faith? In what situations should the commandment (law) be broken because something greater is at stake? In what situations is it more “life-affirming” to smoke marijuana than to not smoke marijuana?
Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath: his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. When the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests. Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple break the sabbath and yet are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the son of man is lord of the sabbath.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"Balance Inquiry With Advocacy" - Chris Argyris | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 1/5/2002 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
faithfullservant-got anything to back that up?
icon-you think jesus would've smoked weed?
June
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 1/5/2002 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | June:
icon-you think jesus would've smoked weed?
Iconoclast:
It is hard for me to see any circumstance where he would. He was too young to have glaucoma. It seems to me that so much of our taking of drugs is an attempt to connect with something more meaningful. To connect with the deep spirit of life that we intuitively know is there - to let go of our inhibitions so that we feel OK.
Jesus was both connected to the source and was himself the source. I can't think of anyone with less of a need to take a mood-altering drug. On the other hand he did drink wine.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"Balance Inquiry With Advocacy" - Chris Argyris | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 1/6/2002 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Iconoclast:
I can't think of anyone with less of a need to take a mood-altering drug. On the other hand he did drink wine.
you answered your own question before i got a chance to ask it! what's the deal with Jesus drinking wine anyway? if it was okay for him why is it such a big no-no for most evangelicals?
June
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 1/6/2002 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Drinking moderate amounts of alcohol isn't bad, people still feel that they can earn their salvation by works. It never states that drinking wine was bad. Now Jesus smoking weed, what would be the benefit? Could you imagine Christ walking around paranoid? "what was that?", "peter do you have any more loaves of bread or fish, I got the munchies", I know when I used to get baked, I would be to lazy to walk, could you imagine all that walking stoned? "Where we going again? Galilee, I can't even fathom moving right now, could you carry me John?"
Just a thouhgt.God Bless
Paul
P.S. Drugs are bad, mmmmmmmmmmmmmkay?
Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen
Edited by - faithfullservent on 01/06/2002 4:26:12 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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