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Stugrad98
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 2/13/2002 7:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi everyone. I have recently come to Christianity from essentially being a non-practicing Jew. I've satisfied myself of the truth and wisdom of the faith by reading a number of books and debates. There are, however, a few areas that still trouble me. I'm confident that Christiniaty is multi-faceted enough to accomodate these problems, and nothing really seriously undermines my faith, but nonetheless, I wanted to see what people had to say. I have read stuff from Dr. Boyd and am very impressed with his originality and wisdom and thus came to this forum, after having written his ministry directly. I wrote them with the same four questions I have. Let me start out with question number 1 and see how it gets hashed out.
Basically, I can accept that freedom is a necessary requirement for love and that freedom entails the possibility of evil. Where I get lost, however, is over the notion of intercession. Doesn't the concept of intercession undermine the very concept of freedom that is invoked in defense against the Problem of Evil? Moreover, if we say God has interceded to help us in a given matter, doesn't that leave open the same problem-- that he doesn't intercede to help others in even more pressing circunstances. I'm sure that this has been dealt with before on this forum, but I can't find it.
Stuart M Wexler | | Back to Top | | |
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Stugrad98
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 2/14/2002 7:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Must have picked a very uninteresting topic :-) I did get a small response in my original email to the ministry from one of Dr. Boyd's assistants. Maybe someone can help clarify what he means:
'1. Actually, no, the fact that God has intentionally created responsive free
agents with the intention of having genuine relationships with them makes it
especially plausible that God would be interested in our feedback and
participation. In this way, we have some "say so" in the working out of
things, even in God's activities (Moses and God debated over things several
times, Jacob's name was changed to Israel because he "wrestled with God,"
etc.). God's "intercession" is perhaps better concieved as a constant
participation with greater and lesser intensifications of effect.'
Stuart M Wexler | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 2/14/2002 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm feelin' ya on this question. I asked basically the same thing as regards salvation (Paul received a big 'intervention' whereas others seem to cry to 'god' for years and get no 'proof' of His existence).
I never got a satisfactory answer and only one person really replied to the thread, so it is either boring or too sticky to discuss. 
I do think the thread on God's glory might provide one response. God's ultimate value is probably His own glory, not our freedom.
One other response, which is my opinion for now: OV has basically overstated their case for the amount and type of freedom we have. Or rather, the focus in books are boards is on freedom but the sections that discuss the limits on this freedom are small and perfunctory.
Terry 'Wondering Along With You' Baxter
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 2/16/2002 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Must have picked a very uninteresting topic :-) I did get a small response in my original email to the ministry from one of Dr. Boyd's assistants. Maybe someone can help clarify what he means:
'1. Actually, no, the fact that God has intentionally created responsive free
agents with the intention of having genuine relationships with them makes it
especially plausible that God would be interested in our feedback and
participation. In this way, we have some "say so" in the working out of
things, even in God's activities (Moses and God debated over things several
times, Jacob's name was changed to Israel because he "wrestled with God,"
etc.). God's "intercession" is perhaps better concieved as a constant
participation with greater and lesser intensifications of effect.'
Stuart M Wexler
What part of this did you want clarification on?
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/16/2002 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | Stu, Modes is good to talk with. He will hang in there with you. | | Back to Top | | |
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Stugrad98
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 2/17/2002 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
quote:
Must have picked a very uninteresting topic :-) I did get a small response in my original email to the ministry from one of Dr. Boyd's assistants. Maybe someone can help clarify what he means:
'1. Actually, no, the fact that God has intentionally created responsive free
agents with the intention of having genuine relationships with them makes it
especially plausible that God would be interested in our feedback and
participation. In this way, we have some "say so" in the working out of
things, even in God's activities (Moses and God debated over things several
times, Jacob's name was changed to Israel because he "wrestled with God,"
etc.). God's "intercession" is perhaps better concieved as a constant
participation with greater and lesser intensifications of effect.'
Stuart M Wexler
What part of this did you want clarification on?
Basically, my concern is more over non-intercession IF we concede the possibility of intercession in the context of free-agents. Let me clarify. I'm really thinking of prayer/intercession here. Please excuse the following poor example. You can imagine someone praying that they get over their flu and getting over it in record time. But what about someone who is suffering from a serious and painful disease-- also praying-- but getting no relief. How do we reconcile one with the other? If a doctor chose to cure someone in two days from the flu when they could have gotten over it in 7 days with no problem, but nonetheless this same doctor refuses to give another patient, with a more serious illness, the cure that he has, wouldn't we think poorly of that doctor? I don't think I was clear enough in my original question to the minister. So it's no surprise to me that his answer doesn't directly address my issue (or perhaps I don't see how). But perhaps someone else can.
Stuart M Wexler | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/17/2002 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Yo Stugrad, I'll take a stab.
First, if you're REALLY interested in this question
(prepare for commercial )
check out chapter 8 of Satan and the Problem of Evil
Bottom line
There is a world of differnce between COERCION and INFLUENCE. Prayer increases God's influence over an event, but rarely does it GAUARANTEE a particular outcome. Prayer is a powerful variable that gets thrown into the mix of variables that factor into things transpiring as they do, but it is not the ONLY variable.
Does that help?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Stugrad98
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 2/18/2002 4:47 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Yo Stugrad, I'll take a stab.
First, if you're REALLY interested in this question
(prepare for commercial )
check out chapter 8 of Satan and the Problem of Evil
Bottom line
There is a world of differnce between COERCION and INFLUENCE. Prayer increases God's influence over an event, but rarely does it GAUARANTEE a particular outcome. Prayer is a powerful variable that gets thrown into the mix of variables that factor into things transpiring as they do, but it is not the ONLY variable.
Does that help?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
Thanks alot Dr. Boyd. This kind of helps. Would I be correct in saying that your response to someone who says "God did X for me" would be to say, that God contributed, but wasn't the only variable in achieving X? And I'm taking a guess that other variables include demonic forces working against God-- would that be right?
By the way. I definitely intend on getting this book as well as others by you. I really respect your viewpoints. The person most helpful in me coming to Christianity is an adventist who introduced me to their concept of hell (annhilationism) and I saw in, Letters to a Skeptic, that you agreed with it or found it reasonable-- as do I. I was also reading a generally secular book that nonetheless dealt with metaphysical issues, and a number of the scientists in that book, even secular ones, expressed some enthusiasm for an openly theistic God, and justified it with good reasons. Then I saw that you favored that too. So I'm very interested in your approach. It's why I came to the site. I was wondering one thing: I've seen that you seem to think of demons as real entities. I've seen others, when talking about Spiritual Warfare, view demons as internal (somewhat metaphorical), but still real in that sense. Does your view allow for that possibility?
Stuart M Wexler | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/24/2002 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome Stugrad!
you wrote:
quote:
"I was wondering one thing: I've seen that you seem to think of demons as real entities. I've seen others, when talking about Spiritual Warfare, view demons as internal (somewhat metaphorical), but still real in that sense. Does your view allow for that possibility?"
Check out the 'Other Gods' thread, and tell us what you think.
Springs
For the...KJV version! (hey, a little support for the ol' English, eh!)-Starkman
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