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jhodgeiii
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 7

Posted 3/13/2002 10:41 AM (GMT -6)

Two challenging exerpts describing why my dad feels the Bible is NOT the inspired word of God:

#1
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Jeremiah 7:21,22: 21 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.'"

God says that he never even spoke to the fathers regarding burnt offerings/sacrifices at the time that Exodus/Leviticus was written; however, Moses wrote them as commandments.

#2
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Jeremiah 8:7,8: "Even the stork in the heavens Knows her appointed times; And the turtledove, the swift, and the swallow Observe the time of their coming. But My people do not know the judgment (other translations say ordinance) of the LORD. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."

God mocks Israel and seemingly says that the scribes are writing falsehoods into the law.
-------

These were taken from the New King James Version. I challenge everyone to read them in context and give an exonerating analysis. Not only did I hear this from my Dad, but even Islamists, who believe this is proof of the Jews' corruption.

Edited by - jhodgeiii on 03/13/2002 3:41:44 PM

Edited by - jhodgeiii on 03/13/2002 3:44:07 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 3/13/2002 5:06 PM (GMT -6)

I like the story about the math student who came late to the final, ans answered all the problems except the two on the board...and asking to take his paper test home to finish it only solved one of those on-the-board problems (both up to that point thought unsolvable.) Solcing one of these will NOT help your Dad, however. And solving both might not either!

But since the first one is easy, I'll have at it.

In historical chronology these three things happened in this order. Not everything has a chronology. Some parts of the economic activity of the Trinity, for instance, has an order without a chronology. But this has a simpel chornology: first, second, third. (I learned this one in high school at Friday night guitar and Bible study.)

1) Moses led the people of Israel out of Egypt at God's command. 2) The people were frightened--distancing themselves from God at the heart level--and told Moses to go up to God himself, so that they could keep the distance their hearts wanted to have. 3) The Law was given. On stone. It was in no way imperfect. (Its effectiveness, due to sin, is imperfect--but that is another story.)But it was a nurse-made. The goal was always--from the get-go--for that law to be "written on their hearts" (Jeremiah, or Exekial -- help me out somebody!).

So, seems to me, that phrase, "add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat" might mean (***I HAVEN'T PEEKED!!!!!!***) that god was saying that that intermediary stuff isn't part of the core plan.

NOW I'M GOING TO GO PEEK!

quote:
Two challenging exerpts describing why my dad feels the Bible is NOT the inspired word of God:

#1
------
Jeremiah 7:21,22: 21 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.'"

God says that he never even spoke to the fathers regarding burnt offerings/sacrifices at the time that Exodus/Leviticus was written; however, Moses wrote them as commandments.

I GUESSED WRONG -- BUT I WAS STILL RIGHT!

quote:
20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.
21 " 'This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.'

The passage shows that God wants ". . .this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you."

What ever the second verse is, it won't matter. You Dad gets no reward for being wrong or right on a Bible trivia test! He--and the rest of us...me and you...won't get any points for animal sacrifices either. (How is bible trivia better than animal sacrifice???) The only thing to accept OR RESIST is: this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you.

Tell him THAT.

The second passage is just:

quote:
. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."

That's a cream-puff. Boy. The scribes--those who read, and who record the offical actions along with the official commentary (no second party in a monarchy!) are saying go for it (That's not uncommon in the OT for the royal advisors to give councel contrary to the prophet of God! And that the temple got corrupt too--well, look at the Sanhedrin in the NT! What's the surprise???) -- OK. Well. What it the surprise.

Does that mean that the Ten Commandments were changed?

Are you being sincere, or, from what you wrote "I challenge everyone to read them in context and give an exonerating analysis." are you trying to mess up someone's faith?

For all to read: The most important part is what Jer. 7 said:

". . .this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you."

Do that. Your salvation depends on it. Let the Spirit write the law on your heart. Use your days for repenting--particularly Lent. God will work in you "to energize and to do for His good favor." (Is that Phil.?)

Let the dead bury the dead.

jhodgeiii
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 7

Posted 3/13/2002 6:08 PM (GMT -6)

----------------------------
Are you being sincere, or, from what you wrote "I challenge everyone to read them in context and give an exonerating analysis." are you trying to mess up someone's faith?
----------------------------

No way! Thanks for letting me clear this up. I should have added to the end of my last sentence, "...and HELP me please." This is an ongoing debate with my father, but I get the gist of what you are saying, focusing mainly on Jeremiah 7.

I'll try it. If it doesn't work, I'll drop it.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/13/2002 10:11 PM (GMT -6)

Is it JHodgeIII (as in the 3rd?)-

Hi. I’m sure your Dad lives everyday successfully while knowingly tolerating less than exact knowledge of the facts. Why is he pushing for scientific exactness here? Doesn’t sound to me like he in interested in faith but that these two passages are honest intellectual struggles holding him back. If I’m wrong I’m sorry. My Dad was the same way for YEARS!

Well, about Jer. 7, I think PoW hit the nail on the head. The core values (sounds modern, eh?) that God was (and is) interested in were heartfelt obedience and love. That was his concern from the get-go. And it was this ultimate end which the levitical code was intended to encourage and maintain. Taken in context, God is saying, “Look guys, pile on the sacrifices if you want to, that’s not what I’m interested in. That’s not what I was talking about when I brought you ought of Egypt. What I want is heart obedience.” See?

Now, it’s entirely plausible to posit a bit more of a concern for chronology here and understand God to be saying, “Look, when I first brought you out of Egypt (i.e., in the days of deliverance, the plagues and the Red Sea, etc.) was I ever concerned about all these sacrifices? Did I even talk to you about them at that time? No. All I talked about was you being my people and me being your God. The sacrifices came later, but they were never the point.”

What PoW said about the core values fits well even if we understand things a bit more chronologically here.

About Jer. 8. Is your Dad really serious? I shouldn’t be surprised because I live and work with Muslims who level this sort of accusation against the Old and New Testaments all the time. The text doesn’t say the scribes corrupted the holy texts themselves. In fact, the passage suggests otherwise. The people are in fact blamed for NOT knowing what was in the Scriptures they possessed. The stork knows, the swallow knows, and you guys CAN and SHOULD know too. Doesn’t this presuppose that the texts containing God’s law were themselves still trustworthy and available? I think so.

Now, not every Jew had a copy of the Torah on his mantle at home. The priests were the instructors of the people. Your average brick laying Israeli depended upon the priests for her (had to be gender neutral right? Hi Pia!) knowledge of what was in the Torah. Right? This instruction would come in the form of public readings at national feasts, obligatory visits to the temple, songs and worship. That such instruction would have at least included some written forms of communication (i.e., the “pen”) is not impossible. But it’s also possible (more likely even) that “scribe’s pen” here is a euphemism for the “scribe’s instruction,” or “teaching,” and doesn't refer to written forms of communication at all.

Here’s a passage which I think describes the same thing happening (except it’s postexilic)—Malachi 2:1-8:

quote:
RSV 1 And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, says the LORD of hosts, then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings; indeed I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will rebuke your offspring, and spread dung upon your faces, the dung of your offerings, and I will put you out of my presence. So shall you know that I have sent this command to you, that my covenant with Levi may hold, says the LORD of hosts. My covenant with him was a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him, that he might fear; and he feared me, he stood in awe of my name. True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and men should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts.

See it? “You have corrupted the covenant of Levi” sounds pretty bad. Muslims like to think this speaks of “textual corruption.” But the parallel established by the immediately preceding “you have caused many to stumble by your instruction,” rules that out. The priests are here guilty of leading astray those who depend upon them for their knowledge of God’s laws. The same thing is happening in Jer. 8. How can the people confidently say, “Hey, we know God’s laws! We’re wise!” when those responsible for instructing them are corrupt and evil? So, whatever the scribes were doing with their instruction, it lay outside the text itself.

God make you a blessing to you Dad.

Tom

PS Did women lay bricks back then?

Edited by - TGB on 03/14/2002 03:19:23 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 3/14/2002 1:24 AM (GMT -6)

jhodgeiii, bLESSINGS ON YOUR HEAD!

I'll be praying.

PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

jhodgeiii
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 7

Posted 3/14/2002 7:19 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the replies PoW, TGB.

The fact that the scribes were also teachers is key to understanding that Jeremiah 8:8 does not have to mean an altering of the actual law, in my opinion. But my dad's mistake is that he feels that all a scribe does is record. Merriam-Webster's dictionary describes a scribe as:

"...a class of men devoted to the study and exposition of the law during the Persian and early Greek periods of Jewish history and serving originally as copyists, editors, and interpreters of Scripture and especially of the law and in New Testament times mainly as jurists.

Of course, my dad told me that Merriam-Webster's dictionary was wrong. Even when I mentioned how in Matthew 23, Jesus tells the people that the scribes are seated in the chair of Moses and to observe what they tell them, he was unconvinced. To me, this is rather conclusive, thus, I believe he is just being stubborn so he does not have to repent of YEARS of belief that the Bible is not the inspired word of God.

Humbleness is truly a virtue and pride truly hardens a man's heart, thus I think the best thing to do at this time is to leave this alone. Being that my dad does not believe that Jesus is God, does not believe that Paul is a true apostle, and believes that only a handful of books in the Bible are valid (but inspired by God), if I continued this debate, it would be reckoned by Solomon to me as foolishness.

But it's my dad! SHEESH. Oh well.

Oh, and YES, jhodgeiii = JHodge the 3rd!

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 3/15/2002 4:45 AM (GMT -6)

Hey TGB,

Say, would you mind, one of these days, putting together a list of the verses most used by Muslims to discredit the Bible? Give us, too, your apology on these verses, if you would. I'd sure appreciate it!

For the Word,

Starkman

Orpheus42
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21

Posted 3/16/2002 5:28 AM (GMT -6)

Hmm... so then instead of "scribes" he's thinking of "secretaries"?

but seriously...
bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1122&version=nas

That's the definition of grammateus, the Greek word translated as "scribe", which is used in Matthew 23:34. In the NIV it is translated as "teachers" which is also clearly (from the definition) an accurate translation. The two are one and the same. That's just the tip of the iceberg of evidence showing that your father's idea of what scribe means is completely wrong. However, that being said, there is no guarantee that showing him this even conclusively will cause him to change his mind. It seems to me that the heart controls the intellect, and so if a person does not WANT to believe he won't, regardless of how much evidence you can show to support your position.

Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,

Jason

God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford

Edited by - orpheus42 on 03/16/2002 10:29:01 AM

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