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GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/18/2002 1:50 AM (GMT -6)

Writerdad, you rendered the previous thread unreadable with your prolonged wwwwww's. Please don't hit keys indefinitely. It screws up the pagination.

So, I'd like to continue the thread over hear, okay. I'd like to offer two quick responses to Writerdad and Seymour, then post another piece on the Scriptural foundation for the seperation of Church and State perspective.

Writerdad: The things you have just written you could not write in many of the other countries you cited. While I do not in any form believe God has blessed America in a special way, I do believe a country can be blessed by upholding Godly principles, which I believe our country as been founded upon.

Doc: I’m glad I am free to write what I want. Should I kill anyone, or support anyone else killing someone, to protect this right? As to what our country was founded upon… African Americans, Mexicans, and Native Americans might not be as enthusiastic as you about our godly heritage.

To Seymour: GREAT POST. I agree with Wink on almost everything. I simply do not see any reason to deny that the "powers" ALSO have a will that transcends the corporate will of the people they encompass.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/18/2002 2:10 AM (GMT -6)

My thinking-out-loud position in process is that believers should not actively participate in government (see my over all statement in the first posting in the first Christians and Politics thread). Here is some of the Scriptural foundation for this perspective. I loosely organized it under 11 points.

I. The Demand for a King Was a Rejection of GOD
1Sam. 8:6-7 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to govern us." Samuel prayed to the LORD, and the LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

Later, when God was preparing to judge Israel, he reminded them of their rejection of him.

Hos. 13:9-11 I will destroy you, O Israel;
who can help you?
Where now is your king, that he may save you?
Where in all your cities are your rulers,
of whom you said,
"Give me a king and rulers"?
I gave you a king in my anger,
and I took him away in my wrath.

* God’s anger burns toward his children when they try to use practical political wisdom instead of trusting him.

Is. 30:1-3 Oh, rebellious children, says the LORD,
who carry out a plan, but not mine;
who make an alliance, but against my will,
adding sin to sin;
who set out to go down to Egypt
without asking for my counsel,
to take refuge in the protection of Pharaoh,
and to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt;
Therefore the protection of Pharaoh shall become your shame,
and the shelter in the shadow of Egypt your humiliation.

II. Jesus teaches us that the way of life among his disciples is to be radically different from the way of the governments of the world.

Matt. 20:25-28 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

III. All the kingdoms of this world are depicted in Scripture as at odds with God, and in the end he shall bring them to ruin.
Dan. 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever;

Dan. 7:27 The kingship and dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them."

Jer. 25:31 The clamor will resound to the ends of the earth,
for the LORD has an indictment against the nations;
he is entering into judgment with all flesh,
and the guilty he will put to the sword, says the LORD.

1Cor. 15:24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power

Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign forever and ever."

* All the kingdoms of this world are at odds with God’s ideal will, and will eventually be brought to nothing.

IV. The nations are God’s ministers of judgement. He uses them in their wickedness to carry out his plans.

Is. 10:5-6 "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.

* Assyria is God’s minister of judgement for Israel (his "rod"), but they themselves are wicked and God pronounces "woes" on them as well.
Is. 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.
* You find this sort of thing throughout the OT.

This is probably what the Pslamist means when he writes:
Psa. 76:10 For the wrath of man shall praise Thee; With a remnant of wrath Thou shalt gird Thyself.
* God uses the wrath of people to his own end, to carry out judgement. What judgement remains he carries out himself.

V. Even though God uses them to his own advantage, ALL the kingdoms of this world belong to the Devil and are controlled by him.
Luke 4:5-6 Then the devil led him up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And the devil said to him, "To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
* Jesus doesn’t dispute the devil about his claim.

1John 5:19 We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;
John 16:11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
* The ultimate "ruler" of all rulers is the devil. Americans perhaps want to say, "he's the ruler of all nations other than our own. WE'RE the exception." But where does Scripture allow for this exception? And isn't it a delusion and distortion of history to think that "ours" is all that better?

Eph. 2:2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient.
Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign forever and ever."
* Note that the kingdoms of this world ultimate form ONE kingdom (singular) which is at odds with God and which shall ultimately be conquered.

VI. We cannot serve two masters and we are not to worry about the welfare of our life. What is human government about if not rallying the allegiance of people to improve the affairs of our life (ironically, inevitably resulting in the killing of those who threaten this ideology)?
Matt. 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
Matt. 6:25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
* Should Christians really divide their loyalties between God and country?

VII. Jesus and the rest of the NT teaches us to pay taxes "so that we do not give offense" to the government, but to know all the while that we are NOT "children" of the government: we are free.
Matt. 17:24-27 When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the temple tax?" He said, "Yes, he does." And when he came home, Jesus spoke of it first, asking, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their children or from others?" When Peter said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the children are free. However, so that we do not give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook; take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a coin; take that and give it to them for you and me."

* Many ancient manuscripts add to the last sentence, "seeing we are strangers in this world," showing that the early Church understood this passage to teach that we are not to be aligned with the (foreign) civil governments, even though we should not go out of our way to offend them.

Matt. 22:15-22 Then the Pharisees went and plotted to entrap him in what he said. So they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and teach the way of God in accordance with truth, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?"
But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin used for the tax." And they brought him a denarius. Then he said to them, "Whose head is this, and whose title?"
They answered, "The emperor’s." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s." When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

* Jesus does not allow himself to be co-opted by political agendas. He simply says give to Ceasar what bears his image, but commit to God – and to God alone – where bears HIS image (namely, our very being). Now remember, politics was THE HOTTEST TOPIC among Jews of Jesus' day. Jesus offered NO OPINION on the issue of Jewish-Roman relationships. This silence screams with significance. Indeed, he invited Matthew the Tax Collector (right wing of the right wings) and Simon the Zealot (left wing of the left wings -- often assassinated Tax Collectors!) and NEVER ONCE commented on the relative merits of their opposite political views!

1Pet. 2:12 –17. Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that, though they malign you as evildoers, they may see your honorable deeds and glorify God when he comes to judge. For the Lord’s sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
* The passage does not say that believers should actively participate in the government, only that we should live in peace, as much as possible, with the government. We are FREE in whatever government we find ourselves, for we are citizens of a different country. Yet we must not use this freedom to rebell against (or participate in) the governement. Our only concern is with the kingdom of God.

Romans 13 communicates the same message.

Rom. 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. (This obviously does mean every "governing authority" is good. It rather refers to God’s providence over governments. He uses even their wickedness to his advantage, as he frequently did in the OT. He does ordain that they be wicked, for he didn’t ordain that they exist at all. They exist only because of human rebellion. But he ordains them IN their wickedness, just as he ordained Judas, in his self-chosen wickedness, to betray him.)
Rom. 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. (There are clearly restrictions on this, as when a government tries to force believers to go against God’s will. In so far as it is possible, we are to conform with the government we find ourselves. If we push this verse to mean that we should enlist in war, Christians in one country might end up killing Christians in another country (or killing non-Christians in another country, which is just as evil) in the name of that country.)
Rom. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; (God uses earthly governments to keep sin in check. Believers need no such earthly laws to regulate their behavior. The only admonition they need is to conform to the government in so far as their rules do not violate God’s ways.)
Rom. 13:4 for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. (God uses governments as his ministers of justice "for the good," even when these governments are evil – as they all to some extent are).
Rom. 13:7 Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. (Even though governments are in varying degrees evil, believers are to recognize that God uses them to his own advantage.)
Rom. 13:8-10 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet"; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. (IN the midst of whatever country a believer finds himself, his life is to be ruled by love. We should never actively participate, support or encourage anything that violates or compromises love.)

VIII. Jesus taught that his kingdom was not of this world.
John 18:33-36. Then Pilate entered the headquarters again, summoned Jesus, and asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell you about me?"
Pilate replied, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me. What have you done?" Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here."

* Jesus here teaches in the clearest possible terms that his kingdom is NOT of this world, and doesn’t operate by the principles of this world. He will not fight like the kingdoms of this world (under the lordship of Satan )fight. His kingdom will rather be established by HIS DEATH. He loves, he serves, he suffers…at the hands of the kingdom of this world. THIS is how Jesus builds the kingdom of God.

The same principle lays behind this passage.
Matt. 26:51-52. Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

* The kingdoms of this world live by "the sword" and will eventually die by the sword. They operate by the natural or carnal mind that is contrary to "the Spirit" and cannot understand or obey God (Rom. 8:5-8). Does not participating in this carnal enterprise compromise the radical distinctness of the kingdom of God?

IX. We are to understand that we are citizens of heaven. Our allegiance is to be to the Lord of heaven. We are soldiers in his army and thus strangers, aliens, in this present world age.

1Pet. 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the desires of the flesh that wage war against the soul.
2Tim. 2:4 No one serving in the army gets entangled in everyday affairs; the soldier’s aim is to please the enlisting officer. (We are soldiers stationed behind enemy lines and must not get "entangled" in the civilian affairs of this foreign country, lest we get distracted from pleasing our enlisting officer or compromise his wishes.)
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens (of God’s household and kingdom) but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God…
Phil. 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

* Abraham is a prototype of all who believe (see Rom. 4). He was a stranger in this world.

Heb. 11:9 By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
Heb. 11:10 For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb. 11:13 All of these (heroes of the faith) died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth,
Heb. 11:37 They (heroes of faith) were stoned to death, they were sawn in two, they were killed by the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, persecuted, tormented—
Heb. 11:38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. (Faith is about being a stranger in this fallen world, anticipating home.)

X. Babylon in Revelation is a symbol of all earthly governmental power. ALL nations are intoxicated with this power. Christians are called to "come out of her."
Rev. 18:2-4 He called out with a mighty voice,
"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
It has become a dwelling place of demons,
a haunt of every foul and hateful bird,
a haunt of every foul and hateful beast.
For all the nations have drunk
of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxury."
Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you do not take part in her sins,
and so that you do not share
in her plagues

The Church that sleeps with this power is called an adulterous whore (Rev. 17).

XI. The teachings of Jesus, and the entire New Testament, forbid believers participating in any program that involves vengeance against enemies.

Matt. 5:40-48… if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.
Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Rom. 12:17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

* It is impossible to run worldly governments on these principles. They necessarily use force to accomplish their objectives. Their very nature contradicts the life the believer is called to. Jesus taught us that it is an extremely serious matter to violate any of his teachings. Matt. 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Do we not break them when we in any way actively participate in a government that by its very nature opposes them?

In the light of all this, it seems to me -- thinking out loud here -- that Christians are to trust God to run the world, using the fallen governments to achieve his sovereign purposes, and remain singularly concerned with spreading the subversive counter-cultural kingdom of God. Following Jesus, we testify to a radically different way of doing life. Is it impractical? Of course, and this is the point. Following Jesus, we testify to a different, future Kingdom by not clinging to what this world clings do. We don't retaliate, use the sword, fight for rights, or put preeminent importance on any of the things worldlings find important. We simply LOVE, in an outrageous and (to this world's thinking) irrational extent.

To the natural mind, the world would "fall apart" if people lived like this. To kingdom people, we understand that only by people learning to live like this will the world finally, under Christ, be brought together.

Its hard for us Americans, living in an very recent and brief oasis of peace to receive the deeply cynical and dark view of worldly governments which the Bible presumes. To acquire this perspective, I encourage you to keep vividly in mind the atrocities of the almost relentless bloodbath that history has been, under the influence of the governments of this world. Only by keeping these horrors in view can we resist the temptation to sell our birthright for a pottage of earthly power.

Think about it.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 3/18/2002 3:40 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Following Jesus, we testify to a different, future Kingdom by not clinging to what this world clings do. We don't retaliate, use the sword, fight for rights, or put preeminent importance on any of the things worldlings find important. We simply LOVE, in an outrageous and (to this world's thinking) irrational extent.

Now, I'm also only thinking out loud here. I've found too often that I can learn and might even change my mind after contemplating on an issue so this is totally what I am at this time thinking.

First, Jesus DID resist the rulers of his day. He got angry even to the point of becoming violent when he saw the people doing business in the temple. He threw the tables over (this doesn't seem like a peaceful act).

Secondly, Jesus often stood up for the less fortunate ones and we ARE called to live as Christ did. We are to stand up for the rights of those less fortunate than ourselves. We are to stand up for justice and uphold kingly principles and values. I don't see how we can do this if we as Christians keep quiet in politics. Politics and government seem to be how our world operates thus this is where we can be instrumental in bringing Christ's truths to the world.

Third, the old testament is full of war and killing. God destroyed nations and people. I don't believe in war and killing in fact my heart grieves at all the lives that have suffered due to war but it seems SOMETIMES (and not as often as has been the case) that this is the only way to protect the rights of innocent people.

Lastly, we need some system of order to prevent utter chaos. I don't see how else we can run nations orderly other than to have some system of government? I don't see how we can have order unless we have all people being accounted for by being a citizen of one of these nations. I realize that in the end days there will be a one world order that will be ruled by the antichrist but for now we have many nations. This to me is how we keep order and prevent chaos.

That's my thoughts but I love being challenged in how I currently think. I just don't think we can live in the ideologic world that we would like to believe we could have. I TOTALLY believe in radically loving people with the love God has given us yet I also think that order and justice need to be established in this fallen world we currently reside in.

Peace,
trosie

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 3/18/2002 10:04 AM (GMT -6)

Doc: I never said we do not criticise the government we live under. Of course we do. That is how responsible people live in a world of evil. We try to better our govenment and the world around us by taking godly action. That is living righteously in an unrighteous world.
We simply love..."what the h*ll does that mean? To use force does not always imply revenge. It can be used for the purpose of keeping evil in check. Many times force is the only way to love.
I know and (my wife has seen first hand)how evil governments can be. So I don't need the lecture. I support this government, critice it, debate about it, because it is a government that allows an incredible amount of freedom for the great many people that live in it and because of it many others have freedom.
If you don't want to support that, fine. But you, your wife and children have much of what you have because this government exists, like it or not. And there are those of us out here who will continue to secure that freedom you have whether you support it or not. Harold
Perhaps though, we shouldn't support anything in this world, seeing as its all evil. Perhaps we should never use force of any kind, at any place, because you know, we should just simply love. Hmmm, perhaps we should just let abortion doctors kill fetuses, because they're going to heaven anyway, why not get them there quicker...scary stuff, but we do have the need to live "godly," now don't we...

What was that quote...let's see, the only thing evil needs to prosper is for good men to do nothing...

Edited by - writerdad on 03/18/2002 3:08:17 PM

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 3/18/2002 10:19 AM (GMT -6)

I think such "spiritually" bothers me so much because such spiritually always comes from those who are not willing to forfit their freedoms for the "love" they so say they want to do in God's name. While not trying to be offensive, I find it hard not to be offended. If this is your true belief system, Doc, why aren't you moving to China, or North Vietnan and giving yourself (and your family) up for the kingdom. But we both know that won't happen...

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 3/18/2002 10:21 AM (GMT -6)

Doc,

We covered much of this same ground on the "The benefits of war " thread. You might want to refresh your memory.

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 3/19/2002 7:44 AM (GMT -6)

I have to say, I agree with Doc "whole hog" on this issue. I find the Scriptures he cites VERY compelling (in addition to others) and have struggled for years with the blind patriotism espoused by many in our nation.

While the US government is not thoroughly evil and has done many good things, this does not excuse us. Many people do not realize how much we as a nation oppress the poor, weak, homeless, and strangers among us. Additionally, most people are willfully ignorant to the oppression we cause overseas in poor nations with our consumeristic, capitalistic, and wealthy business interests.

Many, many of our laws are SET UP to favor the middle and upper classes and oppress the lower and homeless classes in the US. I believe our nation is very guilty of the OT prophetic charges against nations who oppress the poor and orphaned. Having worked for years with homeless children and youth (most of whom are homeless because they were abandoned or abused severely), I have seen the way our nation's laws oppress them.

For instance: It is illegal in most US cities to be homeless. This means, as a homeless person, you can be arrested for ANY reason anywhere, simply because you have no home address. This gives businesses and anyone the RIGHT to call the police and have a homeless person removed or arrested simply for being somewhere they don't want them to be (even because you don't like how they smell!). This includes all public places and private places. Most middle and upper class folks have NO SENSE of their human rights being taken away to such a radical degree...they can't even fathom it.

For people who think that "homeless shelters" are the answer, let me explain that the shelters are only open at night and there are only enough shelters to house a VERY small percentage of homeless on any given night. This means the majority of homeless have to go "somewhere" to sleep/keep warm but are always in danger of being berated, removed, or arrested simply for being there. I could recount for days the stories of homeless youths who tried to hide in parks or buildings because they were so exhausted and in need of sleep, only to be berated, beaten, or arrested for sleeping in a public/private locations. They are treated as less than human beings simply because they are homeless. There is NOWHERE for them to go.

Another law which is common in most US cities outlaws sitting or "loitering" on sidewalks in the city. Spokane is a city who enforces this law diligently. Do you know the purpose of the law? It is to prevent homeless youths from sitting or panhandling on the sidewalks (panhandling is illegal). However, most homeless youths have no other way of getting food and money (and nowhere else to go during the day)...they have to go somewhere and so they go where the people are to find aid. However, businesses complain that it is bad for business to have homeless around and suburban shoppers complain that they don't like "seeing" homeless youth...so this little law is enacted. However, I can assure you that if you are dressed well, this law will never be enforced. Middle and upper class youth wearing the latest from the Gap will never be berated, beaten, or arrested for sitting on the sidewalks. But if you _look_ homeless, you will. I have witnessed police and security kick and beat homeless youths for SITTING ON THE SIDEWALK many times. Having homeless around is bad for commercial industries and insults middle and upper class sensibilities! Because I was with homeless youths, police have threatened to beat me too. This is not uncommon...this happens in some form in every US city and goes totally unnoticed. Trust me when I say that our nation does not truly look out for the poor and orphaned.

Another point to make here is that the US is NOT a Theocracy (a nation under Divine rule). Israel at one time was a Theocracy and the sense of unswerving loyalty that applies in a Theocracy is very different in a Democracy. People often confuse the US as being a "nation under God" as though we were a Theocracy and think our honor and devotion belong to the State. They do not. While we could argue over forms of government and which are best, I think simply making the distinction between these forms is important to remind us where we stand.

~E

Edited by - empiress on 03/19/2002 12:45:59 PM

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 3/19/2002 3:29 PM (GMT -6)

Preach it Miss E and while you do remember the same police who are kicking people on the sidewalk are the ones who come to your house and try and find the criminals who broke into your house. Such the stereotype. And speaking of which...
Did you see the 60 Minute special they did awhile back on the panhandlers in New York, many of who make their living panhandling? I would guess not. Try and recognize that no situation is cut and dry. Not all homeless are evil nor are all homeless good. No country is perfect, so try not and assume that those who disagree with you are trying to paint the US that way. I do find it interesting that while you admit that my country has done many good things, you feel the need to make a list of its evil, yet never seem to feel the need to counter that list. Try and look at the good it has done in order to be fair.
Finally, who ever said that the US is a theocracy? No one in this coversation. That isn't even in the discussion? So why bring it up unless YOU have preconceived views on what others think.
By the way, glad you agree with Doc "wholehog," and find his take on scripture VERY compelling. Maybe someday you'll use capitals on something I write (then again, maybe not). Harold

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/19/2002 6:45 PM (GMT -6)

Having gotten involved with the life-issues of the homeless over the last year, I can only say "amen and amen" to you Miss E. Now, Writerdad, neither Miss E or I dislike Amercia. As worldly governements go (viz. as governments go) its among the best. But my point is that it's not so exceptional that Christians should feel more "at home" in IT than they would in India, the Soviet Union, France, Taiwan or Haiti. Is not the kingdom we are ambassadors of so radically different from ALL these governments that their relative merits are nearly inconsequential? Of course, they are of great consequence in terms of the luxuries we enjoy, the freedom we have to preach, etc.... But is not God great enough to use us in any situatiion we find ourselves in? Indeed, doesn't history show that the Church tends to be MORE vibrant, and more effective, when it LACKS freedom than when it has it?

No Church was "freer" than the Church of the middle ages, and the state churches of the modern periods. All of them killed people, and eventually degenerated to dead institutions.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 3/19/2002 7:04 PM (GMT -6)

And the coal trucks come a-runnin'
With their bellies full of coal
And their big wheels a-hummin'
Down this road that lies open like the soul of a woman
Who hid the spies who were lookin'
For the land of the milk and the honey
And this road she is a woman
She was made from a rib
Cut from the sides of these mountains
Oh these great sleeping Adams
Who are lonely even here in paradise
Lonely for somebody to kiss them
and I'll sing my song, and I'll sing my song
In the land of my sojourn

And the lady in the harbor
She still holds her torch out
To those huddled masses who are
Yearning for a freedom that still eludes them
The immigrant's children see their brightest dreams shattered
Here on the New Jersey shoreline in the
Greed and the glitter of those high-tech casinos
But some mendicants wander off into a cathedral
And they stoop in the silence
And there their prayers are still whispered
And I'll sing their song, and I'll sing their song
In the land of my sojourn

Nobody tells you when you get born here
How much you'll come to love it
And how you'll never belong here
So I call you my country
And I'll be lonely for my home
And I wish that I could take you there with me

And down the brown brick spine of some dirty blind alley
All those drain pipes are drippin' out the last Sons Of Thunder
While off in the distance the smoke stacks
Were belching back this city's best answer

And the countryside was pocked
With all of those mail pouch posters
Thrown up on the rotting sideboards of
These rundown stables like the one that Christ was born in
When the old world started dying
And the new world started coming on
And I'll sing His song, and I'll sing His song
In the land of my sojourn

In the land of my sojourn
And I will sing His song
In the land of my sojourn

Rich Mullins, "Land of My Sojourn" (c) 1993 Edward Grant Inc.

Does anyone else go through days where you just feel like crying because you miss Rich Mullins so much? Maybe it's just me.

Go under the mercy,
Terry

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 3/20/2002 4:08 AM (GMT -6)

Miss E:

quote:
Many people do not realize how much we as a nation oppress the poor, weak, homeless, and strangers among us. Additionally, most people are willfully ignorant to the oppression we cause overseas in poor nations with our consumeristic, capitalistic, and wealthy business interests.

Miss E, you have touched my heart to the point where I feel this stirring inside. This is why we Christians MUST speak up for the less fortunate (for the homeless). We need to work at improving the way the homeless are treated by the law, and I don't see any other way of improving their rights except through getting involved in government by sending letters, speaking up... in order to change the laws that currently are in force. I believed in what Martin Luther King Jr. did by speaking up. He made a positive change.

I think Christians need to be influencing government. I know that we also need to be doing as much as we can through the church but...

Doc:

quote:
Indeed, doesn't history show that the Church tends to be MORE vibrant, and more effective, when it LACKS freedom than when it has it?

Isn't that interesting -- the greater the need, the greater the motivation and passion. Too bad this is so often the case.

Thanks,
trosie

blnkl
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1

Posted 3/20/2002 6:07 AM (GMT -6)

I've only posted one thing on here before and totally screwed it up so hopefuly this one will be better. My thoughts on this thread is if what Greg is saying about christians staying out government is true and our purpose is the great commission, which is to spread the good news and to unconditionally love all people, than by being in government and imposing good values on others and fighting the good fight if somehow we are not going against the will of God. My thoughts are more along the lines of the likes of the Hitler's or the Stalin's in that if we would not of fought off the evil's they would of ruled the world and we would of had the one world government and the rise of the antichrist like is talked about in Revelation's and maybe we are hindering the second coming if the future is partly open and we can effect it. Because our good values and fighting the good fight is nowhere as good as God's and there is always sin involved no matter how good or righteous we are and our sin is against the will of God. Just thoughts I've had in reading.

<><
Bob

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 3/20/2002 10:13 AM (GMT -6)

An important discussion this is...

I think we do need to "stand" for the rights of the oppressed, however, I would make two qualifications.

1. Don't expect the secular government to take heed because its interests are not those of God's Kingdom.

2. HOW we are to take a stand at points where humans rights are being ignored is critical. Rather than making the government our bedfellow (as the Church did in Nazi Germany), our actions should be along the line of Mahatma Ghandi and MLK Jr....non-violent resistance. We do not need to leave the Christian context in that sense, to stand for Kingdom principles. The only difficulty with this is that it usually gets people killed...we have to be willing to risk imprisonment and ultimately our lives if we really want to evoke that kind of change. This is very convicting for me honestly...I've wondered at many points what my response should be and whether I'm willing to take such risks.

Finally, what others including myself are asking for is a BALANCED view of the government in light of the blind patriotism and unquestioning loyalties most Christians/the Church take with the US and her goverment. We should not cozy up to the government as though she were standing for the same principles we are. As in my case, to call for people's eyes to be opened to the reality of evil in our government is not the same as degrading the nation as a whole. However, it's much easier intellectually to paint a false caricature of what is being said and attack that, rather than deal with what is really being said. I fully expect people to continue making this error in logic though.

~E

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 3/20/2002 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

Miss E,

AMEN on all counts.

geej
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 3/20/2002 12:11 PM (GMT -6)

First, for E please define "oppressed" in your view. (I ask this because definitions differ and there are varying degrees of things; I was just curious)
Second, for Greg, Seymour and others. I understand the idea of avoiding violence (Pacifism has always been a struggle because in principle, I agree with it). However, how would you answer the following questions.
1. If you presuppose that Christ existed in the realm of the trinity before he came to earth via Mary, Christ was indeed, involved in wars (righteous ones) and also, on occasion required the death of people...including women and children. How does this fit with your view?
2. When Christ was living on earth, Israel was occupied by Rome. There were no wars that I can think of that presented themselves during his life-time. If the situation never presented itself, how can you say without question that he was completely against Christians participating in wars? (wasn't trashing the temple an act of violence?)
3. Are you saying that Christians should never take a stand in the political realm? If so, how do we protect our rights to worship God openly?
4. If not resisting openly and occasionaly physically, how would one stop say...genocide or the torture and maiming of innocents or unjust treatment of people? (Yes, I keep bringing up his name but think in terms of Stalinistic proportions) Isn't it morally wrong and could it not be construed as against Biblical standards to say and do nothing under such circumstances? I can tell you, if you had confronted Stalin in a peaceful way (many tried), you would be dead...either by freezing to death and starving to death in a gulag in the netherlands in western Russia or, if you were lucky, you'd be shot without having to watch your family go first. You would not have made any difference. Is it better to make a difference or be a pacifist and make no difference?
Geej

Edited by - geej on 03/20/2002 10:38:16 PM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/20/2002 6:03 PM (GMT -6)

Geej, congrats on getting to a 100 posts! Your prize is... a congrats on getting to a 100 posts. Now your questions.

1. If you presuppose that Christ existed in the realm of the trinity before he came to earth via Mary, Christ was indeed, involved in wars (righteous ones) and also, on occasion required the death of people...including women and children. How does this fit with your view?

Doc: Since Christ as a man never advocated violence as a solution to problems, and never involved himself in politics, I think we need to distinguish a) what is GOD'S responsibile and b) what is HUMAN'S responsibility. When WE humans try to control the means by force, we are, I think, playing god. I think Christians have been trying to do this since we got the "upper hand" in government through Constantine. Its interesting, but within 100 years of the Church assuming power, it started putting people to death for disagreeing with it. The killed becomes the killer.

2. When Christ was living on earth, Israel was occupied by Rome. There were no wars that I can think of that presented themselves during his life-time. If the situation never presented itself, how can you say without question that he was completely against Christians participating in wars? (wasn't trashing the temple an act of violence?)

Doc: Rome was at war with various peoples all the time, and in the minds of many Jews, it was at war with Israel, precisely when Jesus was living. It wasn't odd for Romans to routinely round up groups of Jews (and/or others) a slaughter them, just to make a point (e.g. Lk 13:1-5). This was in fact the single hottest topic of the day! Hence Jesus' "opting out" of the issue speaks volumes.

3. Are you saying that Christians should never take a stand in the political realm? If so, how do we protect our rights to worship God openly?

Doc: Note the assumption that it is OUR duty to protect OUR RIGHTS. Jesus exemplified a radically different way of testifying to his "other world" kingdom. We obey, and trust GOD for everything else (seek first the kingdom of God... and all these things will be added...)

4. If not resisting openly and occasionaly physically, how would one stop say...genocide or the torture and maiming of innocents or unjust treatment of people?

Doc: Or the crucifixion of the Messiah?
Now, I see nothing in Christ's teaching that says we shouldn't SPEAK truth in love and even lovingly place ourselves in the way of the political regime -- even allowing ourselves to be crucified if need be. This speaks volumes to the reality of the kingdom of God. The world will know Christ is real BY OUR LOVE (Jn 17:20-27). Return evil with good -- but there IS a "return" here.

Good questions

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 3/20/2002 9:47 PM (GMT -6)

Doc said:

quote:
Note the assumption that it is OUR duty to protect OUR RIGHTS. Jesus exemplified a radically different way of testifying to his "other world" kingdom. We obey, and trust GOD for everything else (seek first the kingdom of God... and all these things will be added...)

Ahhh...but was Jesus an open view theist who had the CONSEQUENT view of providence that we have hammered out here? Uh oh...

And again, what about the ESCHATOLOGICAL angle? Might not Jesus's understanding of his IMMINENT return have something to do with his "irrevelent" notions of dealing with a sinful world?

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 3/21/2002 2:47 AM (GMT -6)

Mephi says:

quote:
And again, what about the ESCHATOLOGICAL angle? Might not Jesus's understanding of his IMMINENT return have something to do with his "irrevelent" notions of dealing with a sinful world?

Just thinking... if this was Jesus' view, shouldn't it be ours?

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/24/2002 2:42 AM (GMT -6)

Don: Just thinking... if this was Jesus' view, shouldn't it be ours?

Doc: TOUCHE!

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Jewgrass
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 3/26/2002 6:23 AM (GMT -6)

Let me first admit that I have not read this entire thread, only a few bits and pieces. School work has been pretty tough lately so my participation on the board has diminished. However, from what I read from Doc's 11 points, I believe we are in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this a change from Doc's stance in GOD AT WAR where he states we should fight Satan and his kingdom everywhere, including in the government?

You don't see Jesus going out to revolutionize the government despite the Messianic anticipations of his day.

Just a few quick thoughts. More later.

--Jewgrass

"[The Messiah] will take upon himself all the guilt of Israel... for on account of their sin he has died." --Moshe Alshekh, 16th century Jewish Rabbi

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 4/10/2002 1:50 AM (GMT -6)

Yo Jewgrass, I was wondering where you was.

There is no shift. We are indeed called to spread the gospel whereever and however we can, and to do so entails resisting the kingdom of darkness whereever and however we can. But this is different from the question of the extent to which we should pledge our allegiance to our country and try to Christianize it through political processes.

Study hard!
Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/11/2002 2:45 PM (GMT -6)

Excellent conversation, ouch, the growing pains…

Rth 2:10,11Then she fell on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, and said unto him, Why have I found grace in thine eyes, that thou shouldest take knowledge of me, seeing I [am] a stranger? And Boaz answered and said unto her, It hath fully been shewed me, all that thou hast done unto thy mother in law since the death of thine husband: and [how] thou hast left thy father and thy mother, and the land of thy nativity, and art come unto a people which thou knewest not heretofore.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 4/12/2002 1:20 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
And again, what about the ESCHATOLOGICAL angle? Might not Jesus's understanding of his IMMINENT return have something to do with his "irrevelent" notions of dealing with a sinful world?

Meph,

I may have missed it here, or on the other thread, but what do you have in mind? Thanks mon!

Brandon
"Nerds," incidentally, are almost always men." 6 Modern Myths About Christianity & Western Civilization

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 4/14/2002 6:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
And again, what about the ESCHATOLOGICAL angle? Might not Jesus's understanding of his IMMINENT return have something to do with his "irrevelent" notions of dealing with a sinful world?

Here's what I'm thinking. I agree. Jesus strongly feels that the Kingdom of God is immanent.

If a sense of imminence caused Jesus to feel that the Kingdom was present in power and in fact it was not, then Christ's teaching of the Kingdom would be delusional. The consciousness of these powers would have been delusional as well. What this would mean is that Jesus would have been in gross error as to his central mission and his integrity, as a religious teacher, undermined. For Jesus unequivocally thought that the Kingdom of God meant the end of the world in his life time.

Having said that, if we can answer the question of his understanding of his imminence, then, me thinks, it would have profound consequences for "irrelevant notions for dealing with a sinful world." Because, would not transformation of "structures" be included in this "inbreaking of the Kingdom" as exemplified in his life and ministry--for the Kingdom is not only viewed as a future realm, but as the power of God operative in that realm in the "already" of the already/not yet "polarity" if I may state it as such?

Brandon
"Nerds," incidentally, are almost always men." 6 Modern Myths About Christianity & Western Civilization

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/15/2002 1:59 AM (GMT -6)

Doc: My thinking-out-loud position in process is that believers should not actively participate in government…

Tim: I am not sure, that I wholly agree, though the Scriptures you quote are excellent and your argument is well formed.

Gal 3:14…that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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