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Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/18/2002 7:13 PM (GMT -6)

OK.

I've been reading through this site for many months now, (under 2 different aliases!) and I am fascinated by its contents. Really fascinated. Guess what, I'm fascinated because I barely understand it! :-)

Now I'm making an assumption here, but I see that there are a select few really getting down deep into the Philosophical/Theological reasoning of major topics. My assumption is that there are alot of people like me who, while fascinated and itching to get involved, are kind of intimidated by the whole thing.

I would like to get a thread started where some of you "Zosima" and "Postmilleniallist" types can pitch in with us "Neophyte" types in learning how to attack these issues.

and..

I'm trying to prepare myself for college in the Fall! My major will be Theology and I'm just trying to suck every last drop of intelligence out of all of you, no tuition costs included! :-) Any takers?

I hope this will help myself and other "lurkers" out there in jumping in and getting involved more in-depth like. So, I'll pick a topic, the Trinity. This has always been a weird one for me. Not that I expect that it'll get less weird after this conversation, but it's a start.

How do we approach the Trinity in the Bible? How do we dicover and critque the presuppostions behind the differing views on the Trinity? What are the implications of these differing views? What ARE your differing views? How does one approach defending their view? I'd like to invite common and educated folk alike to mix in together and learn from each other!

So, what is the Trinity? Three persons, one essence I hear. How does that work exactly?

Up next.. Faith and Works! :)

Cliffy

MrIndifference
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144

Posted 4/18/2002 7:49 PM (GMT -6)

Here is my personal take on the trinity...

God the Father: He officially holds the authority and in many ways is the decision maker and the one who comes up with all the cool ideas.
Christ: He is what I call the great communicator. He is the Word. He is the one that communicates the Fathers will.
Holy Spirit: He is the force behind the Word and the one that makes things happen.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55.11

You can look at God from the perspective of being a tongue speaking a word. God the Father would be the tongue. He creates the word. Jesus is the word being spoken. The Holy Spirit is the breath. In order for the word to be communicated, all three must work together as one. The Father must speak it forth, the word must be present, and the breath must be there for the word to be projected to the intended audience. If one is not present, then there is no effect what-so-ever.

Along the same lines. You can look at the workings of the trinity as being like the US government. We have three branches. There is the Executive, the Judicial, and I think it is the Congressional branch. The way it is set up, they all three must work together to make laws, and to govern the country. If one is not present, then the government as depicted by the Constitution is bunk.

MrI. :|

Seymour
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105

Posted 4/19/2002 12:55 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

How do we approach the Trinity in the Bible?

Already this is a loaded question because the Trinity is not explicidly taught in the Bible, rather it is an extra-Biblical term generated to make sense of Biblical teachings.

Some have suggested that the Holy Spirit is the personified love that exists between the Son and the Father.

Okay another vein. i'm stuck in comparitive myth right now. Think about all of the father son relationships that are configured around vision and blindness. Jacob who can see fools his blind father, Eli who is blind falls over and dies when he hears that his sons have been killed (the blind are always in danger of falling, this is one reason why blindness is used metaphorically for THE FALL, we will trip morally if we can not see.)

How does the trinity come into this? God the father is invisible, Christ is the visible image of the invisable Father. Yet Christ can see him, he only knows what to do by watching what his father does. No one can ever see the Fathers face, rather they always get mooned by him as we noted on another thread. (how's that for laymperson's terms?)

Where the Holy Spirit comes in here i don't know.

EMILY: “Oh, earth, you’re too wonderful for anybody to realize you. Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it?--every, every minute?”
STAGE MANAGER: “No. The saints and poets, maybe--they do some.”

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/19/2002 2:06 AM (GMT -6)

Cliffy: So, what is the Trinity? Three persons, one essence I hear. How does that work exactly?

Tim: Please permit me to explain myself, just a bit at a time, I believe you will gain a better understanding this way.

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God or 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

AV - God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2,
angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606

1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

Gen 1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit or ruwach {roo'-akh} of God moved upon the face of the waters.

AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,
vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable
impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at
death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit,
coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Who is Isaiah speaking about?

Col 1:9…to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

In God’s Love,

Tim

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/19/2002 3:02 AM (GMT -6)

OK, SO IT OCCURED TO THIS DUMBY HERE--IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY--THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE POSTED. I'M SLOW. SORRY. BUT HERE IS MY CONTRIBUTION ANYWAYS. AGAIN, SORRY.
==================================================================

quote:
How do we approach the Trinity in the Bible? How do we dicover and critque the presuppostions behind the differing views on the Trinity? What are the implications of these differing views? What ARE your differing views? How does one approach defending their view? I'd like to invite common and educated folk alike to mix in together and learn from each other!

If anyone asks whether the doctrine of the Trinity is confusing... the answer is "yes," and the answer is "no."

The reason for these two answers is that two traditions exist: To keep it simple, lets call them a (1) a rationally based tradition in the West, and (2) a devotionally based tradition in the East. The West has produced many different views on the Trinity, and maybe more as time goes on. The East decided to not answer all questions, but answered a core of issues in such a way that le ss and smaller changes issued.

The Medieval West tried to create a neat system in which everything about God was known, and everything could be compared to everything else So this "Scholastic" (Schoolmen) tradition tried to create a single way to examine and define everything from how the Persons of the Trinity relate to each other, to how God relates to his creatures. THAT created problems. And so we answer the question of whether things are confusing (or confused) with "yes."

But we also have the hopeful "no" answer. The Greek speaking East (vs. Latin) set up and preserved a distinction that treated how God relates to his creatures (called the "economy" of salvation) in one way, and set careful guard not to presume to know God from the kind of perspective that God knows God.

Basically, the matter of "essence" and "energy" are a divider in history. And comparing a Western system and an Eastern system is tricky. But the difference is not hard to get a handle on. Simply, one must answer two questions:

(1) Can I know God the way God knows God? That is to ask, can I know God's essence?

(2) Can I know God directly and personally in his actions towards me? Does God act directly on/with/in/through me?

The West and East answered these questions differently.

What if you answer the first question by saying that God's created, dependent creatures can know the creator in just the same way that the Persons of the Trinity know each other. Many things can happen. One of the weirder things suggested by that presupposition, is, that by definition, YOU yourself can be as much a part of the Trinity as the Son or the Spirit are. (Is that what Mormons believe?) A less startling thing suggested is that everything we experience of God and from God becomes grounds for proof of God's Trinitarian Communion. (Spawning speculation about politics and fairness in the Trinity.) Early on Western theology took baby steps down this path.

But what you answer the second question by concluding that God is so completely "other" -- beyond the most we can imagine -- that God then has to create intermediary measures (kind of like wearing gloves to handle silver pitchers) to deal with mankind. Thomas Aquinas wrote of an order of "Created Grace" that God spoke into existence and then allowed to pass out of existence. That would limit the sort of personal relationship possible with God.

I wish to express the conviction that while theology about "The Trinity" is complex, it does not need to be confusing.

My point is this. We should and must know all we can, personally and together, about what the Trinitarian God does personally in our salvation, and in his creation and providence of the world. That is not just theory, it is also practice. We must also be aware of traditions that might lead us to form and image of God in our minds that is beyond that sort of image that God has chosen to reveal to us. Distractions, or worse, delusions might draw us away from God by seduction or fear. We must grow in awareness of two whole Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in our lives. The Church confesses the Name of God (singular) to be "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (plural). That is how we are Baptized, married and buried.

It is good for us to be slow to try to define things that are not central to our salvation and relationship to God (aren't they part and parcel of the same?). We should recognize and remember that most of what Scripture reveals actually concerns the workings of the Persons of the Trinity in our salvation (the 'economic trinity") rather than how they relate together. A famous case in point is how while it is true that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (in essence), and it is true that the Son sends the Spirit (to work in the Church) the two statements should not be in the same paragraph, let alone in the same sentence as the filoque says. (The Popes turned down that addition for more than 100 years; until the Franks insisted by threatening military force.)

The doctrine of the Trinity can be a great anchor for keeping our faith pointing the right direction -- towards God. It can also be the source for many errant departures. Every statement about God reflects on how we believe we should treat each other. They reflect on what we think is right. They reflect on what we believe God's goals are for us.

We may not in any way avoid the doctrine of the Trinity. But in learning, we must be reverent.

- PoW

p.s......

A really clear treatment of the Trinity, written for the normal pew-sitting/hymn standing Joe,is available online at:
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html

Its format is easy to read and easy to get a handle on!

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/19/2002 3:58:08 PM

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 4/19/2002 11:41 AM (GMT -6)

First, the Trinity is no more harder or confusing than we make it, save one principle: As inifinite and beyond our scope of understanding God is, my understanding of the mechanics of God's existance will be; As He is infinite, my understanding testifies to how finite I am able to understand Him. Nevertheless, the simplicity of what may be known is not sacrificed.

Seymour, you said the following: Already this is a loaded question because the Trinity is not explicidly taught in the Bible, rather it is an extra-Biblical term generated to make sense of Biblical teachings.

If what you were saying is that the TERM Trinity is not in the Bible, I'd agree; however, if you are saying the CONCEPT of the Trinity is not taught (and I don't think you necessarily were), than I'd disagree. That said...

First, the Trinity is, in it's most simple expression, merely the existance of God: three persons in one essence. I am one person in one essence, so it's hard for me to comprehend anything else, but it's certainly not impossible for there to be other types person/essence existances, nor is it a contradiction to my own one-person/one-essence.

What's awesomely beautiful (and very much the understood portion of the Trinity, at least to me) is the theological expression of this Biblical Trinity. The Trinity affords full explanation of personality and relationship--two of the meanings and purposes of life. The dynamic Three-in-One makes sense of my three-in-one; The Father, Son and Spirit make sense of my body, soul and Spirit; of my wife, myself and my child. For the entire crux of the Trinity is expressed relationship. But the minute you try to break it down into mechanical parts beyond what is expressed Scripturally--Mr. Indifference, you've layed a good start for Biblical recognition of the Trinitarian functionality--you'll end up very confused, because you then enter into the unknown of God. POW's presentation of the Trinity from an essence vs. economic manifestation of the Trinity expresses something of the mechanics without leaving the finite and going where no man has gone before!

1. Multiple personages of God explain relationship--relationship WITHIN the construct of personality (how else could you have it!). The Trinity relates with itself; the Three relate to each other without any contest or disagreement; for They are One in Essence.

2. A Biblical Trinitarian concept of God explains my relationship with God, my relationship with myself (I, too, am more than body; I'm poly...poly...what's that word?), and my relationship with others.

3. I'll understand it more when I see Him face to face, I'm sure!

For the threeness of it all,

Starkman

Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/19/2002 1:21 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Here is my personal take on the trinity...

God the Father: He officially holds the authority and in many ways is the decision maker and the one who comes up with all the cool ideas.
Christ: He is what I call the great communicator. He is the Word. He is the one that communicates the Fathers will.
Holy Spirit: He is the force behind the Word and the one that makes things happen.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55.11

You can look at God from the perspective of being a tongue speaking a word. God the Father would be the tongue. He creates the word. Jesus is the word being spoken. The Holy Spirit is the breath. In order for the word to be communicated, all three must work together as one. The Father must speak it forth, the word must be present, and the breath must be there for the word to be projected to the intended audience. If one is not present, then there is no effect what-so-ever.

Along the same lines. You can look at the workings of the trinity as being like the US government. We have three branches. There is the Executive, the Judicial, and I think it is the Congressional branch. The way it is set up, they all three must work together to make laws, and to govern the country. If one is not present, then the government as depicted by the Constitution is bunk.

MrI. :|

Ok, Just a few comments.

You do plenty to simplify the whole thing, which I thank you for, but the way you put it makes God sound like "cells" of the whole. I guess I am not getting how God can be separated into strict divisions like that. The Trinity states that Jesus is "true God from True God." Wouldn't that mean Jesus was fully God, and therefore imply that The Father and The Holy Spirt are fully god as well? I was never aware of a hierarchy.

Jesus equated himself with God. If the Father is the one with the real authority, how can Jesus be fully god? But Jesus also constantly deferred to the Father. (maybe as an example only?) I guess I'm still confused...

You're analogy to the US Government was pretty cool as well, but we all know that the Executive, Judicial, and Legislative branch quite often try to work AGAINST each other because they are human, and have differing perspectives on how the government should be run. Therefore they aren't totally united. But if each part of the Godhead is fully God and fully good wouldn't they be all working for the same good and always be united? How can single minded goodness be delegated to roles? Wouldn't they all be working for the same thing? Not that I think you were going for a strict analogy with this, but I am just bouncing some ideas out there I guess..

I think the only thing the Trinity has in common with our Government is that it has three parts.. (-:

Cliffy

Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/19/2002 1:29 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

p.s......

A really clear treatment of the Trinity, written for the normal pew-sitting/hymn standing Joe,is available online at:
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html

Its format is easy to read and easy to get a handle on!

Thanks for the post, PoW. I will definitly check this site out.

Cliffy

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/19/2002 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Cliffy,

Mat 28:18-20And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus claims all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth. Given unto him by who, the Father or the Holy Ghost?

Jesus tells the eleven disciples to teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Does Jesus honor his Fathers name above his own and [what of] the Holy Ghost?

In God’s Love,

Tim

ruwach {roo'-akh} 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} the Spirit of God

Edited by - Tim on 04/20/2002 08:45:17 AM

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/19/2002 2:15 PM (GMT -6)

Cliffy,

I believe the Bible supports or refers perfectly to the idea of the Godhead as being a singular plurality. Although, trinity, triune, and especially Three-in-One, can be confusing terms, and appear inapplicable to me, to use them to explain the true singular plurality of the Godhead. However, I believe the plurality (consisting of two or three of the same kind?) is not the first issue to begin to contend with. For me, the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a secondary consideration, as compared to their singular peculiarity, of exclusive possession or right.

In God’s Love,

Tim

ruwach {roo'-akh} 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} the Spirit of God

Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/19/2002 2:45 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Hey Cliffy,

Mat 28:18-20And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus claims all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth. Given unto him by who, the Father or the Holy Ghost?

Jesus tells the eleven disciples to teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Does Jesus honor his Fathers name above his own and the Holy Ghost?

In God’s Love,

Tim

ruwach {roo'-akh} 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} the Spirit of God

I had a nice reply going, but I stupidly hit the Back button and lost all of it.. Poop.

I think I see your point, though.

Cliffy

Edited by - Cliffy on 04/19/2002 7:47:31 PM

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/19/2002 11:08 PM (GMT -6)

Cliff-

Here are some notes Cliff (“Notes Cliff”? “Cliff Notes”? Funny?...Never mind).

I think one difficulty is finding the right language to use to describe God. Are Father, Son, and Spirit each a “person”? What’s that mean? I often suggest in class that with the Trinity we face the somewhat opposite problem we have in describing Jesus. With Jesus we affirm “one person—two natures,” while with God we affirm “three persons—one nature/God.” Jesus = singularity of person but multiplicity of natures, while God = singularity of nature but multiplicity of persons. I haven’t yet found language that I like in describing this.

It seems to me from Scripture that a) Father, Son, and Spirit are not each other, that b) each is divine, and that c) God is one, not three. There you have it. Seems to me that whatever we say after that is unpacking it (i.e., about God’s being “personal” and the Son’s subjection/submission to the Father, the role of the Spirit, etc.).

I’m especially interested in this because I have to write (or ask someone to write) an article on the Trinity for our Study Bible being produced for Muslim readers. It’s giving me a headache!

Tom

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/20/2002 5:43 AM (GMT -6)

Funny Tom and Cliffy,

I believe the terms Trinity, Triune, and especially Three-in-One are a misnomer. Although there is a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; explaining something as simple as a Father and Sons Spiritual relationship, with mathematical equations is inadequate, in my mind.

Tom: With Jesus we affirm "one person—two natures," etc. …I have not yet found language that I like in describing this.

Tim: The Bible says it in better words than we can first and foremost, than we can rephrase it adequately; so let me start this way, slowly, a bit more at a time. In Num 23:19, it says ‘God is not a man, neither the son of man’, which is true, when it was said. Things have changed a bit since then, have they not?

Consider this also,

Job 25:1, 4-6Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said…How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the son of man, [which is] a worm?

Moreover, please or rather, ‘I beg you’, I believe it is vitally important to read and know Psalm 22, to understand what we are discussing?

This prophetic psalm stands out more than the other messianic psalms. Written by David, it gives a graphic description of the death of Jesus Christ by crucifixion. At the time it was written, stoning was the form of capital punishment. One thousand years later, the Romans introduced death by crucifixion. - Chuck Smith

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/comm_read/1019339829.html

In God’s Love,

Tim

ruwach {roo'-akh} 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} the Spirit of God

Edited by - Tim on 04/20/2002 10:50:44 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/20/2002 5:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Tim (04/19/2002:7:15:52PM): I believe the Bible supports or refers perfectly to the idea of the Godhead as being a singular plurality. Although, trinity, triune, and especially Three-in-One, can be confusing terms, and appear inapplicable to me, to use them to explain the true singular plurality of the Godhead. However, I believe the plurality (consisting of two or three of the same kind?) is not the first issue to begin to contend with. For me, the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a secondary consideration, as compared to their singular peculiarity, of exclusive possession or right.

Tim, here is the "singularity" of the Godhead: The Father begets the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. That is all personal. I'm not sure that I understood you above. But historically too much of the time the focus has been put on an impersonal "essence." The Father loves the Son, and the Spirit. It is the Father, in Christianity, that is the source of the oneness of the Godhead. God does love. God's "mode of existence" is Love/Communion. I totally disagree with you where you say: "the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a secondary consideration". No. That is everything!

Where you say, "their singular peculiarity, of exclusive possession or right" you seem to have followed the pagan Greek idea of God as being fearfully "other" -- of having "exclusive possession or right." Were this true, the God would not have created. "Exclusive?" God is Open--unlike the God of the middle-Platonists; and that is because God is love. God's "ontology", his mode of being, isn't summed up by static concepts. God's "being stems. . .from the person and the freedom of its love which 'hypostasizes' being into a personal and trinitarian communion..."

The whole point is "the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." And the whole point of the Gospel is that WE are invited to share "by grace" in Christ with God what God shares in Trinity "by nature."

Thanks for the discussion.

PotOnWheel

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/20/2002 11:19:17 AM

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/20/2002 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

You want [me,] to steal your aha!

P.S. Please accept my apology, for not responding to your original post above…

Edited by - Tim on 04/20/2002 10:58:21 AM

Edited by - Tim on 04/22/2002 5:22:07 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/20/2002 6:22 AM (GMT -6)

Tom, I'd say that what is at stake here is NOT a scientific definition. (That would be to walk in the steps of Scholasiticism.) But rather, first, to ask the question of "what is at stake" in each of those formulas: Trinitarian and Christological. I'm leaning to looking back at the matters-at-stake of the time of their formation as a beginning guide. Then I'd also look at what is at stake now.

Here is a link to a surprising article that sugggests the Cappadocian Fathers were focusing on the the personal nature of salvation, and the personal relationship of God to man. As it points out, at stake is NOT philosophical systems or academic definitions.

Not only does the one God exist as Persons (Communion is an ontological catagory--God's mode of existence.) in trinitarian communion. As I said to Tim above: The whole point is "the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." And the whole point of the Gospel is that WE are invited to share "by grace" in Christ with God what God shares in Trinity "by nature."

That is what we want out Moslem brothers to experience.

quote:
I asked whether I may pose a question to the Jewish chairman... My question was, "Is the Angel of the Lord Who appeared to Moses in the burning bush a manifestation of God?" "Of course it is!" came the rapid answer.

I reacted with the following question, "Is He created or uncreated?" Then the reply shot back, "Of course uncreated! We Jews do not believe that God reveals Himself by means of creatures!"

I quickly retorted, "That is our Orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity".

Then the Jewish chairman reacted with, "then why all the philosophical terms like "one essence," " three hypostasies" and "homoousion"?

I replied that "These terms were reactions to heretics who had been transforming the Church’s doctrine into philosophical systems, whereas," I continued, "the only purpose of such terms was to guarantee the cure of the center of the human personality by means of the purification of the heart, its illumination and the glorification of the whole person".

The Jews reacted with the information that this is the Hassidim tradition. Then I asked whether this is also that of the modern Hassidim. They answered that, "as far as we know it probably is".

But this is not only the tradition of the Hassidim. It was and has been the very foundation of prophethood and apostleship of both the Old and New Testaments and the ongoing life of the Church since Pentecost. The only way one becomes a member of the Body of Christ is by means of the purification of the heart completed by its illumination and glorification both in this life and the next.

http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.24.en.jewish_and_christian_orthodox_dialogue.htm

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/20/2002 7:49 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel,

Are you also sidetracktap, on Bob Hill’s site? Anyway…

PotOnWheel: I'd say that what is at stake here is NOT a scientific definition.

Tim: I agree.

Quote: Many mystic educational systems (including medicine) use foreign languages (usually Latin) to confuse the issues to try to protect the ideas from attack. In one sense this is an example of trying to say "don't question me, I'm an expert" like Robin Williams in Hook yelling at the kid "Don't mess with me, I'm an attorney." – Newcomb

Tim: To answer your original question, PotOnWheel, or in other words, I consider the term trinity, triune, and especially Three-in-One, to be like Robin Williams in Hook yelling at the kid "Don't mess with me, I'm a Trinitarian". In addition, the actual union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is almost a non-issue for me, in my mind they are obviously united; except for their singular peculiar relationship: that is each having an exclusive unique possession, or right.

Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 on the cross. He was forsaken by God [the Father, the Holy Ghost, and/ or Himself, who?] for some period or amount of time, it is believed, so that I would not be forsaken by God, eternally.

Issues, and issues, versus issues…what is at stake.

Cliffy: How do we approach the Trinity in the Bible? How do we discover and critique [analyze, comment on, review] the presuppositions behind the differing views on the Trinity? What are the implications of these differing views? What ARE your differing views? How does one approach defending their view?

Tim: Versus, the Salvation of a lost soul; talk about the implication of differing views.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

In God’s Love,

Tim

ruwach {roo'-akh} 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} the Spirit of God

Edited by - Tim on 04/20/2002 1:16:18 PM

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/20/2002 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

1Jo 5:5-8Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record {in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,} the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The New King James Bible makes a marginal note on 1 John 5:7-8, stating that the words {in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on the earth} are words that are not included in the vast majority of New Testament Greek manuscripts.

The words in question occur in no Greek manuscript until the fourteenth century, except for one eleventh century and one twelfth century manuscript in which they have been added to the margin by another hand. There is no quotation of this verse in the writings of the early church.

It is probably best to regard the insertion as the efforts of an over-zealous copyist who thought that the New Testament needed a little help with the doctrine of the Trinity, and he figured this was a good place to do it. - David Guzik

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/20/2002 4:15 PM (GMT -6)

Cliffy,

MrIndifference: …The Father must speak it forth, the word must be present, and the breath must be there for the word to be projected to the intended audience. If one is not present, then there is no effect what-so-ever.

Jhn 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jhn 8:28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 10:30I and [my] Father are one.

Jhn 12:49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jhn 14:20At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jhn 17:8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Jhn 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

2Cr 5:19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Col 1:19For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Act 10:38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Isa 55:1-13Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/21/2002 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel: The whole point is "the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." And the whole point of the Gospel is that WE are invited to share "by grace" in Christ with God what God shares in Trinity "by nature." -1Cr 1:30

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

Col 1:9…to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/21/2002 8:25 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel: We must also be aware of traditions that might lead us to form an image of God in our minds that is beyond that sort of image that God has chosen to reveal to us…We should recognize and remember that most of what Scripture reveals actually concerns the workings of the Persons of the Trinity in our salvation (the 'economic trinity") rather than how they relate together.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost’:

Act 1:5,8For John truly baptized with water; but ‘ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost’ not many days hence…But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Is there a difference, between ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost’, and ‘ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost’, Yes, POWER!

4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}

AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/21/2002 8:33 AM (GMT -6)

Hello TGB!

quote:

Cliff-

Here are some notes Cliff (“Notes Cliff”? “Cliff Notes”? Funny?...Never mind).

Ha ha. ;)

quote:

I think one difficulty is finding the right language to use to describe God. Are Father, Son, and Spirit each a “person”? What’s that mean? I often suggest in class that with the Trinity we face the somewhat opposite problem we have in describing Jesus. With Jesus we affirm “one person—two natures,” while with God we affirm “three persons—one nature/God.” Jesus = singularity of person but multiplicity of natures, while God = singularity of nature but multiplicity of persons. I haven’t yet found language that I like in describing this.

I see your point here..This is precisely what I find so confusing. Just an odd side note - how does the "two natures" of Jesus relate to the "two natures" of the Christian? Paul, in Romans, speaks of a "sinful nature," about how he is "a slave to sin" yet, God clearly "set him apart from birth" by grace. Is there a connection here? Are the two natures given to us when we believe the first "step" in our becoming more like Jesus - perfect man, and perfect God? I guess I am saying - is our new "regenerate" nature the catalyst in our becoming closer to God? I guess that's the way I always looked at it - the Spirit being the "catalyst."

quote:

It seems to me from Scripture that a) Father, Son, and Spirit are not each other, that b) each is divine, and that c) God is one, not three. There you have it. Seems to me that whatever we say after that is unpacking it (i.e., about God’s being “personal” and the Son’s subjection/submission to the Father, the role of the Spirit, etc.).

In a way, that is exactly what I want unpacked! But, or course, I want to stay away from the presumption that I can know God the way God knows God. That, I think, is what PoW was talking about. Argh.

quote:

I’m especially interested in this because I have to write (or ask someone to write) an article on the Trinity for our Study Bible being produced for Muslim readers. It’s giving me a headache!

Good luck on that! It's hard when you have to explain and defend major doctrines you don't fully understand. Of course, that's pretty obvious.. :)

Love,

Cliffy

Edited by - Cliffy on 04/21/2002 1:55:35 PM

Cliffy
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 26

Posted 4/21/2002 8:54 AM (GMT -6)

Tim,

I have read the Bible quotes you have posted. From the quotes you supplied, it seems to me you are trying to demonstrate that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, all bearing witness to one another. And that God is not man. That is all I could glean from those. If God is not man (as stated in your OT references), and Jesus was fully man, how can Jesus be fully God as well? Am I mistaken in thinking that's what common doctrine states? I going to go read that Orthodox website again! :)

What's the process by which "God isn't man or a son of man" to Jesus being able to be "Fully God and Fully Man" Could it be the idea that the human race isn't truly "human", and Jesus was perfect, so he was truly "human" making it plausible for him to be "Fully God" (because he's perfect) I have no idea where I am going on this... Phew.

What are you trying to demonstrate really? I am not very good at the Bible thing, understanding it on some levels has always been a chore for me. Which is why I have trouble reading it. When you quote things like that, can you explain them a litte? I would certainly understand if you didn't have the time, I'm just having a little trouble following you I think. Thanks!

Thinking out loud,

Cliffy

Edited by - Cliffy on 04/21/2002 2:05:28 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/21/2002 9:19 AM (GMT -6)

I have too many posts to qualify for this "ride" (know the signs at 6-flags?).

But this commentary might be helpful John the Silver-tongued (John Chrysostom) addresses a famous passage in 1 Corinthians 15: 25 about "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." He goes into detail because he is aware of potentials such as to make the Son inferior to the Father (which he knows some will want to twist his words to say), and one other error. (Interesting behind-the-scenes into theological politics.) One of the passages covered is vs.28, "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.", to which J.C. explains *** I'm going to let you go read it yourself: sections 8 through 12 particularly. Its very worthwhile reading.

The link is:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-44.htm#TopOfPage

P.S. -- Frankly, I get a lot out of the questions riased in my own head that good, strong issues raise. And that passage of Chrysostom's Homily does a very good job! (Worth the time.)

- PoW

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/21/2002 2:22:28 PM

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 4/21/2002 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

Cliffy,

I need the Holy Ghost to understand Scripture, not that I will ever become the Father or the only begotten Son of the Father or the Holy Ghost of the Father. However, I need the Holy Ghost to know the things that are uniquely mine in the Father and so do you.

Isa 64:4For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1Cr 2:10-16But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jam 1:5-8If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.

Did you read, "A really clear treatment of the Trinity, written for the normal pew-sitting/hymn standing Joe."

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html

PotOnWheel’s post are the best on this subject, I believe!

In God’s Love,

Tim

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