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geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 5/6/2002 5:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | We (okay, Greg/Doc) has been doing a series of sermons on the concept of Love...how it is the basis of everything Paul teaches and is the basis of Christianity. After church, one of my friends made the statement "I'm having real trouble with this love crap. Do you have that trouble?" I hate to say it but yes, I do. Both of us came to the conclusion that we live by the montra "Trust NO one...ever.". Many of us seem to be poinsoned by cynicism to the point where our mission of love is thwarted. The question is, how do we as Christians, come to grips with the messages with which we program ourselves and the truth that we are called to love others? Is this an on-going battle or is it one that can be conquered?
It seems as though, it involves a complete re-wiring not only of one's world view but their entire being. It seems as though this re-alignment with Christ/love is a life-long process to be met head-on situation by situation. (something along the lines of Paul's themes of Was saved, am being saved and will be saved) Am I on the right track here or am I missing something? Help!
Geej
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pouringagape
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 5/7/2002 12:26 AM (GMT -6) | | geej,
I am most likely not the best one to
answer your question so I'll keep it short.
It seems to me that "to trust no one" is also
seen as maturity to most people. It is the way of the world. (many people aren't trust-
worthy so it probably is also wise)
Unfortunately I am on the other end of the
spectrum. Imagine trusting almost everyone until they proove themselves untrustworthy, and then get hurt. It doesn't go over well with others either. They see you as foolish to trust because of the peripheral criteria you SHOULD have used to make a judgement in the first place. Which is better?
Yes, it's probably childlike to trust, but is it wise?
I'm sure the answer is all about balance and lies smack in the middle.
The more I think about it. The more confusing it is. If I walk around not trusting and just looking at people through the eyes of "I don't know about you" I may be casting a judgement in my head. Externally though, more people are used to (and I think drawn to) that--so I can cast a wider "net" because it is appealing and seen as maturity.
Internally, it may be sin.
I don't know, ask Greg!
Peace,
pouring agape
Re 7:17
...for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life;
Edited by - pouringagape on 05/07/2002 08:20:41 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/7/2002 1:21 AM (GMT -6) | | geej says:quote:
It seems as though, it involves a complete re-wiring not only of one's world view but their entire being. It seems as though this re-alignment with Christ/love is a life-long process to be met head-on situation by situation. (something along the lines of Paul's themes of Was saved, am being saved and will be saved) Am I on the right track here or am I missing something? Help!
Geej, sounds like you get the idea exactly. Press on.
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/8/2002 1:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear geej,
geej: The question is, how do we as Christians, come to grips with the messages with which we program ourselves and the truth that we are called to love others?
The Messages:
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Mat 22:37-40Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mat 5:42-48Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Tim: What does the LORD require of me (Mic 6:8) and this is the first and great commandment, and the second is like unto it (Mat 22:37-40), and be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Tough message indeed!
geej: Is this an on-going battle or is it one that can be conquered?
The on-going Battle:
Rom 7:14-18For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 12:1-2I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Phl 3:13-16Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Tim: The law is spiritual, but I am carnal, and I know in me dwells no good thing (Rom 7:14-18), therefore, by the mercies of God I will be transformed by the renewing of my mind (Rom 12:1-2). I will press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Phl 3:13-16).
geej: Am I on the right track here or am I missing something? Help!
The Help:
1Cr 13:4-8Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth…
Gal 5:22-26But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
1Jo 1:5; 3:20; 4:8; 4:16; 5:9; 5:20This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Tim: Love is a verb or action, and not a feeling, which has nothing to do with what I like or not (1Cr 13:4-8). However, the fruit of the God’s Spirit is love (Gal 5:22-26) and if my heart condemns me, God is greater than my heart (1Jo 3:20). That is to say, God will shed abroad in my heart His love by the Holy Ghost (Rom 5:5), to be able to love others, evens as I am loved by Him; I need simply to ask, that He would do so.
In God’s Love,
Tim
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/8/2002 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It seems as though, it involves a complete re-wiring not only of one's world view but their entire being. It seems as though this re-alignment with Christ/love is a life-long process to be met head-on situation by situation. (something along the lines of Paul's themes of Was saved, am being saved and will be saved) Am I on the right track here or am I missing something? Help!
Geej
Sounds like... good place to start.
And that is why really good church is important. Why confession of sin, asking forgiveness (liturgically), supplications, priases, prayers, confessions of belief. If liturgy is preparation, then we really need LOTS of preparation. I do. | | Back to Top | | |
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Jeffrywith1e
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 5/8/2002 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | in one of those sermons on Love, Doc mentioned being 'in the Zone'. I take that to mean deciding to attribute unfathomable value to everyone - loving them. deciding. I think I've been able to get into that zone because in deciding to do that, the result was amazing peace. a wonderful joy. but that whole zone thing lasted for moments. I think you're exactly right, geej, about re-wiring one's world view and entire being. being aware of when you're in or not in that zone is a step in the direction of re-wiring, I think.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 5/8/2002 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | geej,
I'm wondering if you know about TNT?
Greg talks about it in general during church, and there is a section on it on the frontpage of this site.
Anyway, through working with the way we are already wired (by God through creation) and the way we are programmed (by the world, parents etc)we can see how it is that we (currently) do what we do. After that, (sounds like you are already here) we are aware of congruity,incongruity,double binds, and strongholds. Through a process of taking our thoughts captive (and analyzing HOW we do what we do) we can effectively lead them from old patterned behavior to the renewing of our mind.
It's much like you said "situation by situation" we have to interrupt our patterns, come into awareness about how we do a particular thing, then decide to redirect to love.
~that's my two cents,
with love,
selah
Edited by - selah on 05/08/2002 1:04:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 5/8/2002 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah
Yes, I've heard of TNT and have been impressed with what I've heard. It is on my wish list of things in which I'd like to participate.
Geej
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 5/8/2002 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the honesty Geej:
While there are techniques for collapsing "old self" "pattern of the world" lies in our head -- the TNT stuff (which I will introduce here and there as much as possible in the sermons) -- I think the whole thing starts and ends with A DECISION.
If you believe the Bible, and realize that
a) the truth that the point of everything is to receive, live in, and overflow with God's unsurpassable love; and
b) the love command is universal, unconditional, and the first of all commands, summing up within itself all other commands, then...
You decide out of obedience to obey. You commit to a) trying to walk in the awareness at all times that you are loved as God says you are...
b) try to walk in the awareness that his love is already in you, ready to overflow when you release it, and
c) try to walk in the unbroken awareness that every single person you see is loved by God with an unsurpassable worth, and that your job, right HERE and NOW, is to agree with God. So you ascribe to them, in your mind, and in your words and actions as appropriate, unsurpassable worth.
As you do this, continually and repeatedly, without exception and not based on feelings, you will find...
a) all the incredible unloving judgmental garbage you have polluted your mind with toward other people. Don't judge this, hate this, rebuke it, get angry or anything. Even HERE, don't "return evil with evil, but return evil with good." Just thank it for reminding you that your one and only job is to LOVE: ascribe unconditonal worth to others. Release the polluting "pattern of this world" "old self" "tree of knowledge of good and evil" garbage, and start loving. And
b) You will increasingly find, if you continue to walk in this, that you begin to actually SEE and then FEEL what God sees and feels toward these people. You begin to FEEL LOVE towards them. Your heart is expanding, becoming more like God's. You are beginning to live "in the zone" (viz. in Christ). The joy and pain of this experience is remarkable. It is LIFE. It IS the point of the whole thing.
When you do this, the Lord will at times lead you to go beyond the mental ascription of worth to ascribing worth in word and action. You will engage, when so led, in loving deeds. Doors will open to you. the Spirit will lead you. God will use you.
You are now the kingdom person God intended you to be.
In a sense, its a life long process. but in another sense, it is done the minute you decide to do it. And its ALWAYS IN THE NOW.
Hope this helps,
Blessings
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Agnes the Agnostic
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 5/9/2002 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello, everyone. This is my first post, first day, everything. Long time watcher, but new poster. I just want to say something. It seems to me that Doctor Boyd's ideas are a wonderful testament to how belief in God can help people do wonderful things they may otherwise not do. Also a testament how different human unctions created by that belief can be interpreted as divine leading. But need any of this be actual? It seems not. Surely there have been cases in other religious traditions of this so-called leading that, with no great amount of imagination, can be seen to merely be human activity.
It's seems to me that the whole "God of Love" idea is nice in a pragmatic sense, and I suppose, in that it's not bad. But I personally cannot help but see this as utterly unnecessary for moral beings who can esteem love even without a god.
Thanks for letting me share. 
Agnes | | Back to Top | | |
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Agnes the Agnostic
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 5/9/2002 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello, everyone. This is my first post, first day, everything. Long time watcher, but new poster. I just want to say something. It seems to me that Doctor Boyd's ideas are a wonderful testament to how belief in God can help people do wonderful things they may otherwise not do. Also a testament how different human unctions created by that belief can be interpreted as divine leading. But need any of this be actual? It seems not. Surely there have been cases in other religious traditions of this so-called leading that, with no great amount of imagination, can be seen to merely be human activity.
It's seems to me that the whole "God of Love" idea is nice in a pragmatic sense, and I suppose, in that it's not bad. But I personally cannot help but see this as utterly unnecessary for moral beings who can esteem love even without a god.
Thanks for letting me share.
Agnes | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 5/9/2002 10:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Agnes-
Welcome abaord! That's all for now. Thanks for the probing question.
Oh, you're not by any chance Mephi in disguise are you? Just kidding!
Tom
"It will change, but not soon." Greg Boyd | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/10/2002 2:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Agnes the Agnostic,
To me there is only one God; of whom or from who are All Things, ‘The Father’; in, for, and to Him I exist. There is only one Lord Jesus; by whom or through who are All Things, ‘The Anointed One’; by and through Him I exist and live. Although, no man has ever seen the Father, the only begotten Son of God, who is himself God; in the bosom of the Father’s heart, has declared, told of, and explained Him; having made known my Father’s love toward me. If my Father is God, I will love the Son of God also; he proceeded forth or from the Father, not of his own accord nor initiative, neither did he come to man of or by himself; the Father sent him. That I might know the Son and Father are one; that the Son is in the Father and I am in the Son; by this means, the Father’s love is in me, through the Son. God is love.
In God’s Love,
Tim
…to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding (Col 1:9).
Edited by - Tim on 05/10/2002 07:24:25 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 5/11/2002 2:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey guys,
Thanks for the opinions. They are more than helpful. Greg, I find your step by step comments to be very useful...what you are saying is Decide to ascribe unsurpassable worth to people and your thoughts and actions will soon become natural? (overly simplified I know)
Geej
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/15/2002 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | GregBoyd,
I just want to mention, that I truly do appreciate your heart Greg; I ask God, to continue to richly bless you, in your walk in the Spirit, Amen.
In God’s Love,
Tim
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
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