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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 8:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | Starkman:
Isn't number 2 pretty much the same thing as what goes on with the unsaved who are alive, except for the location of the loss?
I mean, the "lost" who are alive are experiencing a permenant loss of capacity to enjoy and reflect divine beauty relative to (a) the appropriate length of time one spends on earth with serving the Lord. All number two seems to be saying is that this same loss continues after death until the person does a post-mortem act of repentence.
In one sense, yes. In another sense, no.
You are right that the same TYPE of thing is going on both pre- and post-mortem. However, there is a DISTINCTION that only applies to pre-mortem choice for God. See, people eternally forfeited various opportunities to 1)develop a Christ-like "self" in THIS life and in so doing 2) to contribute to the glorification of Christ in the context of the probationary period.
This probationary period is the MISSIONAL period!
While we are in this probationary period, we are on MISSION for God to bring beauty and reconciliation to the world. We won't NEED to do this after the Consummation. All will be of God. So, when people don't self-dispose rightly in this life they are WORKING AGAINST God's missional purpose for their beautiful individuality. This is why "every idle word will be judged"
Does this help?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
You and I agree that Jesus had this beautiful moment-by-moment "properly basic" relationship with God, even though he was fully human. He simply KNEW God. He didn't know God via arguments or systems, he KNEW God. The intimacy was perfect. Despair free.
Now, wouldn't a person with this sort of relationship with God notice that ECT was incompatible with that nature? Wouldn't he recognize, as you and I have, that the contemporary categories were inadequate? Jesus wasn't afraid to explode old categories and introduce new ones. Why was he constrained in this instance?
Two things:
1) Look how many more mental categories that you and I have more than Jesus did. We are 2000 years of human advancement removed from Jesus. Jesus didn't have modern psychological and philosophical terms to work with. We do. This is significant.
2) There really IS a deep truth being conveyed by ECT. That's what I'm trying to get at. Jesus was VERY AWARE of the painful and irrevocable nature of not repenting in this life. And he conveyed that in the BEST WAY that he could! But his life demonstrated God's NATURE. All of this must be taken into account. And this is not new. Just look at it the same way the biblical authors dealt with the the thorny issue of God's sovereignty over Creation...and it's relationship to creaturely freedom.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/23/2006 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | |
Namaste said...
You are right that the same TYPE of thing is going on both pre- and post-mortem. However, there is a DISTINCTION that only applies to pre-mortem choice for God. See, people eternally forfeited various opportunities to 1)develop a Christ-like "self" in THIS life and in so doing 2) to contribute to the glorification of Christ in the context of the probationary period. (Emphasis Starkman's) Hmm...
What is it, then, for someone to post-mortem repent, say, after the Consumation? Is there no Christ-likeness involved for them? Are they to enter eternity with us as someone without Christ-likeness? Can we really make a case for some sort of distinction about what people will or will not loose out on based on whether they die in or out of Christ while still alive?
Here's Tom's post to which I refered in my question about this issue: There will be a permanent loss of capacity to enjoy and reflect divine beauty relative to (a) the appropriate length of time one spends in hell and (b) commensurate with the nature of post-mortem existence.
Tom has leveled the playing field: people loose out while alive (if they are not saved) and in the life-after (if they were not saved). There's really no difference, it seems, about what they loose, either before or after death; we are all eventually going to end up in the same place with the same Christ-likeness. I just can't see an argument for suggesting that we who receive Christ now will have something in eternal bliss that post-mortem conversions won't have. All of it comes out in the wash.
If this is the case, it's simple enough, then, I would think, to just conclude that all of mankind will be saved because of God's love, the image of God in every person, and the beautification that God would never loose by allowing people to perish eternally...unless, of course, people choose to do so, but who'd want to do that!
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | I feel like we have to get this. It's important.
Starkman:
Tom has leveled the playing field: people loose out while alive (if they are not saved) and in the life-after (if they were not saved). There's really no difference, it seems, about what they loose, either before or after death; we are all eventually going to end up in the same place with the same Christ-likeness. I just can't see an argument for suggesting that we who receive Christ now will have something in eternal bliss that post-mortem conversions won't have. All of it comes out in the wash.
Ok. Let's get out of the In/Out categories of heaven. All this "everything comes out in the wash" is a SUBSTANTIAL idea...not a PROCESS idea of the self! It's not helpful.
Think about the "rewards" and "losses" IN HEAVEN.
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
The reward or loss is the content of the self which relates to 1) their self-disposition towards or against God's telos for them individually and 2) their contribution to reality that aids in the MISSION OF GOD during this life!
Don't we see this??
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/23/2006 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: The reward or loss is the content of the self which relates to 1) their self-disposition towards or against God's telos for them individually and 2) their contribution to reality that aids in the MISSION OF GOD during this life!
Starkman: Neither #1 nor #2 from your quote is so distinct between those who serve while alive and those who don't. I just don't see this huge, vast crevice between those who serve now and those who don't. Both groups of people have suffered a content of the self which relates to their self-disposition towards or against God's telos, and their contribution to reality that aids in the mission of God during this life. It still stands, as I see it: after all is said and done, it all comes out in the wash. Everyone will share a Christ-likeness, and the losses either group suffer will not be able to be compared with the glory that follows. There's just not enough between each group of people to make such a monumental distinction between them.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman:
Neither #1 nor #2 from your quote is so distinct between those who serve while alive and those who don't. I just don't see this huge, vast crevice between those who serve now and those who don't. Both groups of people have suffered a content of the self which relates to their self-disposition towards or against God's telos, and their contribution to reality that aids in the mission of God during this life. It still stands, as I see it: after all is said and done, it all comes out in the wash. Everyone will share a Christ-likeness, and the losses either group suffer will not be able to be compared with the glory that follows. There's just not enough between each group of people to make such a monumental distinction between them.
This is not to be flippant. Seriously.
It's not YOUR judgement of this stuff that matters. It's God's.
Think about this, man. God appreciates EVERY NEW OCCASION that happens in reality. That's a huge amount of data...much of which is IMPERCEPTIBLE to us! We can't even come CLOSE to evaluating like God does. So for us to place our own thoughts of worth. on God is not helpful.
If it's possible that God DOES view a difference there, who are we to say that it's not significant?
Just because it's not significant to you...doens't mean it's not significant to God.
Do you see what I'm trying to say?
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Look how many more mental categories that you and I have more than Jesus did.
Corey: Agreed. But it doesn't seem to wash with me that Jesus was so locked in to his contemporary categories that he COULD NOT see the heart of God that manifests as unending pursuit. I don't think our advanced knowledge of various things is what enables us to see the problems with ECT. All it takes is to see the heart of God, which Jesus was much more capable of than us.
Now, we may argue that Jesus himself knew the incongruity of ECT, but nonetheless chose to use that language because that produced the desired result in his audience. It's a forensic device, a useful myth. Is that what you're arguing?
I could go either way. It could be either way in my mind. If you want to go the "forensic device" route, that's fine. It would work.
I would rather say that it fit God's purposes for people to have a concept of ECT with relation to the end states of people who don't repent in this life at that particular TIME in human history. I could see Jesus articulating what he believed was TRUE about the afterlife...while being willing to allow things to be in tension. Just like there was unresolved tension about God's sovereignty and creaturely freedom. I could see Jesus being SO AWARE of the REALITY of the hellish state to come...that he just talked about it...and kept that in unresolved tension with what he knew about God.
But...either way would work for me.
But again that's just me.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/23/2006 9:51:12 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Ok. THIS ties to another thought I've had from Fear and Trembling. Abraham had to live in this unresolvable tension of conflicting promises, that Isaac would be the fulfilment, yet he was to be sacrificed. Abraham had to rest with God as the middle term, the ambiguous quantity that would balance the equation. All he knew is "God will provide." The command to kill Isaac was real, the possibility of his death was real. Yet he had faith that somehow the promise would be fulfilled. Maybe Jesus lived in a similar tension.
YES!!!
Exactly!
This is why it's SOOOOOO important to think through ALL of the ramifications of Jesus being FULLY HUMAN! Perhaps he had a faith just like that of Abraham, who was the FATHER of faith. And perhaps he dealt with the some of the same tensions.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/23/2006 10:14:29 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Interesting... so would we say that God's command to Abraham to kill Isaac was a forensic device, a useful myth? Hmmm... I don't think so. It was more than just forensic.
No, no. I'm saying that sometimes God allows his faithful to be in the midst of seemingly UNRESOLVABLE ISSUES...expecting them to be faithful regardless. And only the faithful person will look at the unresolvable issues and say "Thou Knowest" and go on...believing that SOMEHOW, God will work things out. This is the faith that Abraham had.
I'm saying that it's possible that Jesus lived in this tension the BEST WAY that he knew how. As ALL HUMAN BEINGS DO!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
So just as the possibility of Isaac's death was real, so the possibility of ECT is real. But just as Isaac's death was not actualized, neither will ECT.
I would agree with this. As long as we make it VERY CLEAR that Abraham didn't KNOW whether or not Issac would truly die. He just believed that God would do what God needed to do to fulfill God's promises. In like manner, Jesus may not have KNOWN whether or not ECT would bear out...but he just believed that God would do what God needed to do.
JUST LIKE with Gethesemane. That's why he asked the question "IF IT IS POSSIBLE, let this cup pass before me!"
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/23/2006 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
We agree completely that Jesus, too, had to live by faith -- there were "things unseen" for him too
YES, my brother, YES!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 10/24/2006 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | I found this paper interesting, outlining various flavors of universalism. Here's a snippet:
Support for Christian Universalism has been pulled from Scripture, Tradition, and reason. But Scripture presents a quandary, as many verses speak of hell and judgment and others of universal salvation.[15] Most Christians have accepted the hell and damnation texts as normative and have not taken the universalist verses literally or have tempered their meaning.[16] Likewise, the minority who wish to hold the universalist texts as primary must explain away the judgment passages or soften their meaning[17]. Both of these harmonization strategies are dissatisfying for the serious student of Scripture. To hold the two in tension, however, can lead to disillusionment. A helpful explanation has been put forth by John A.T. Robinson: we deserve hell, we receive grace, and thus both are included in our sacred texts.[18] In the end, we cannot say that Scripture defends or denies universalism conclusively. [emph mine]
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/24/2006 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | I suppose this version is most in line with our view...
II. B. ii. Optimistic Universalism
The Pessimistic view has been losing steam in postmodern era; according to Clark H. Pinnock, “an optimism of salvation is replacing [it].”[31] For the Optimist, God desires the salvation of all (Arminian Universalism), and has made it available to all through Christ (Multicultural Universalism), and God’s love and mercy are so great that no human being could reject them forever. Humans still have free will, and many will resist God for a long time, but no one will hold out for all eternity (contra the Pessimist). If this is true, how can the Arminian Optimist still insist upon the individual’s freedom?
To the Optimist, “if a person is fully informed about sin and the offer of salvation in Christ then rejecting salvation would be utterly irrational.”[32] Therefore, God offers everyone a chance to become “fully informed” – whether in life, post-mortem, or even through the fires of hell.[ The Optimistic Universalist believes in the power of truth to persuade (but not compel) the psychologically fit mind. “No one rational enough to qualify as a free moral agent could possibly prefer an objective horror…to eternal bliss, nor could any such person both experience the horrors of separation from God and continue to regard it as a desirable state.”[33] Ware claims Optimism as well: “If divine love is constantly knocking on the door of their heart, and if that door is locked on the inside, may not the time come when at long last they respond to love’s invitation and open the door?”[34]
The invincibility of divine love, God’s proven persistence (as the Hound of Heaven), and an eternal timeline add up to great hope for the Optimists. Yet they cling resolutely to voluntary human choice, and will never say for certain that salvation is universal. But others will.
We say that, in the rock-bottom experience, that God RESTORES some level of rationality to INSANELY-DESPAIRING beings, such that a rational choice can be made given the offer of Christ. (Just a version of post-mortem evangelism) We then say that the eternality of hellish experience is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE, but the probability against it's eternality is OVERWHELMINGLY HIGH (approaching 1)
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/24/2006 8:17:58 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/24/2006 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | My take.
If Scripture is really inconclusive on the matter of universalism...AND Tradition allows for it (in various camps)...and we have considerable theological and philosophical reason to believe that universalism has an EXTREMELY HIGH PROBABILITY of occuring...AND absolute centrality is placed upon the LOVE and GLORY embodied in Jesus...
Then we oughta just let the chips fall where they may on this. And make our decisions accordingly.
What say y'all?
Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/24/2006 8:10:43 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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