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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I didn't know what to title this or where to put it.

 

These thoughts are just a stroll through the garden of God’s beauty. I’m going to try to apply the idea of God’s beauty as infinitely loving relationality to a very controversial issue. It might screwy, but it’s fun.

 

I expect that von Balthasar will fill in some blanks when I get ahold of him. He has several volumes that work out a “theological aesthetics” in terms of divine “beauty.” Looking forward to reading it. In the meantime, I’ll just work it out as best I’m able.

 

One Triune Being of Love

Just think about what constitutes the triune relations. We can't bottle it or totally comprehend it, but we can understand something of it. We’ve been talking about God as one divine being who exists as Father, Son and Spirit. The three are not carbon copies of one another. Father is not Son. Son is not Spirit. There is real distinction. (Please let’s not get off just yet into trinitarian controversies; just hang with me), but personal distinctions that constitute the oneness. The beauty which is God is the beauty of—I’m gonna massacre this, okay?—diversity within unity, or a oneness of diversities, or oneness which is itself the loving embrace of the ‘other’, a ‘different’ other. That’s what love is. God just IS this.

 

(Boy, that sucked.)

 

Anyhow, with this in mind, think of THIS love, this loving sociality freely creating contingent creatures—us—to image him in the world, to reflect him, to reflect the beauty of loving relationality. We experience God's beauty, are upheld and transformed by God, and we replicate that in all our relationships. We want to reflect that beauty, that “oneness of difference,” in all our relationships. That’s what we’re here for and that’s what it’s all about.

 

The ‘difference’ between persons in love with each other is important. It’s based on the triune relations—Father, Son and Spirit are distinct, but one. Just think about the sheer beauty of it. What’s more beautiful: the unification of ‘same’ or ‘similar’ things OR the unification of ‘different’ things? The latter of course. What’s more beautiful: Two white guys who both make the same salary getting along really well and hanging out together OR a black and a white guy from very different economic and cultural backrounds getting along well and hanging out together? The latter of course. Oneness between like existants is beautiful, yes. But there’s a difference in beauty between the oneness had by like-existants and that had by different-existants. The latter is more beautiful.

 

God wants creation to reflect this beauty, the beauty of loving relationality between distinct persons.

 

So far so good.

 

Sexuality: Reflecting the Divine Beauty in Our Bodies

Let’s talk about gender. What if we were to view human gender God installing the hardware necessary for us to reflect the beauty that God is, the oneness of ‘differents’ (to make a plural noun out of the adjective ‘different’). This might bring me into a conflict with Mephi who, I think, because of his recent identity explosion (laying aside race and gender as labels that ‘define’ us) might want to view gender as a necessary evil of sorts, something we ought to ignore or set aside when considering our individual identities.

 

I think that’s a mistake. Sure, gender can become an obstacle. But properly understood as THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL of human differences necessary for the sort of divine beauty we were meant to reflect, gender is hugely important, a constitutive component of human nature and identity. So, ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ aren’t merely capacities for ‘reproducing’ the human. They’re also capacities for ‘reflecting’ the divine—the beauty of a oneness that can only be had by different things/persons.

 

So I look at gender as necessary to our reflecting the beauty of God. It’s not about body parts; not JUST ‘seed carrying’ and ‘seed baring’ members of a species. It’s about being different enough at the most powerfully influential level of our being—gender and sexuality—to reflect the greatest beauty possible. And a unity expressed by two ‘dissimilar’ things is more beautiful than that expressed by two ‘similar’ things. God, I think, wants that beauty reflected materially by us.

 

My thought is that sex is just this. It’s THE most intense experience of divine beauty that can be had by embodied persons. God wants our bodies to participate in and reflect the intense beauty that God is. That’s what’s behind the genders ultimately. And it’s further appropriate that this oneness, this intense sexual beauty, turns out also to be the thing and the place where WE create new life—children. How like God to arrange that.

 

Let me go ahead and say where I want to go with this. The question is, How would this all apply to homosexual relations? I want to say that heterosexual relations are God’s intention for the human race. They’re the most beautiful expression of human sexuality because they most closely reflect the oneness of ‘differences’ and ‘differences’ that are more fundamental to our identity that any other difference that exists between human beings. Homosexual relations are a less beautiful expression of human sexuality. They’re a more beautiful expression of our sexuality than, say, beastiality is. Why? Because homosexual relations are relations between ‘persons’. And that’s necessary to the sort of loving relationality God intends to have us reflect (since that’s what God is). But humans having sex with cows sacrifices the ‘personal mutuality’ of divine beauty. It turns what the satisfying of physical pleasure what intended to be and to reflect into a selfish ‘taking’ or ‘grab’ (instead of getting the pleasure FROM the fact that there’s a ‘person’ on the other side of the relationship who is choosing to be a source of pleasure for me). See it? Beastiality sacrifices all loving-pesonal relationality because, well, because cows aren’t persons. It’s a complete perversion of God’s intention. Homosexual love at least retains enough of the required components, I think, to reflect SOME beauty. It’s at least two ‘persons’ seeking to serve and please the other. It’s hard to deny that this in itself is a good thing. But it still falls short of God’s intention because it’s a oneness of ‘same’ things and not a oneness of ‘differences’. Although affirming something of the beauty of loving relationality, it also denies something essential to the beauty of loving relationality.

 

If ‘sin’ is a privation, privation of the good, of the beauty of the good, then I feel comfortable saying homosexuality is sin, since it fails to express something essential about the divine beauty. But it also allows me to affirm that there is at least an attempt to actualize relational beauty.

 

I have no idea where to go with it now. Could this perhaps be grounds upon which a conversation between the Church and gays can procede?

 

Having opened that can of worms, I’m off.

 

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 9/27/2006 1:05:34 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I gotta be crazy.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nope.

You're making sense.

I agree with you.

And we BOTH understand that this is ONLY saying that homosexuality is NOT GOD'S IDEAL.

Homosexuality is deviation from God's ideal intentions for human sexual relations.

That's ALL that's being said.

NOTHING else.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do we see how the TRINITARIAN PROCESS METAPHYSIC gives us the language and framework to say this consistently?

Revolution, baby.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The question, of course, Mephi, is what do we DO with it? See, if evil is privation, and if we say we're about giving everything we are and have to opposing evil, to healing the brokeness and dysfunctions wherein privation is manifested, then we ought to oppose any privation of relational beauty--including homosexuality. We have to DO something, SAY something, about THIS privation of beauty, a privation that manifests itself at the DEEPEST level of our identities.

By 'opposing' this privation I don't mean getting ugly, name-calling, carrying signs that say "God hates Fags," and whatnot. I don't mean rejecting gays as persons. But we cannot mean not working to bring gays toward the MOST beatiful expression of their sexuality. We have to rule out SIMPLY affirming gays and leaving it at that. To do that would be 'sinful' for us in the sense that it would be a choice on our part to confirm the privation of beauty, to choose it; and that's it's own privation of beauty.

I know there's more to this. And frankly I don't have the time to explore it all. But it was on my heart so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 9/27/2006 12:34:42 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
The question, of course, Mephi, is what do we DO with it? See, if evil is privation, and if we confess to give everything we have to opposing evil, then we opposite any privation of relational beauty. We have to DO something, SAY something, about THIS privation of beauty, a privation that manifests itself at the DEEPEST level of our identities.

By 'opposing' this privation I don't mean getting ugly, name-calling, carrying signs that say "God hates Fags," and whatnot. I don't mean rejecting gays as persons. But we can mean not working to bring gays toward the MOST beatiful expression of human sexuality. So we have to rule out SIMPLY affirming gays and leaving it at that. To do that would be 'sinful' for us in the sense that it would be a choice on our part to confirm the privation of beauty, to choose it.

I know there's more to this. And frankly I don't have the time to explore it all. But it was on my heart so I thought I'd throw it out there.


We do EXACTLY what God did for Creation.

EXACTLY what God has been speaking through Greg Boyd.

Out of love, we must be willing to IDENTIFY with people who struggle with homosexuality, and SACRIFICIALLY give ourselves to them...

be willing to OVERWHELM their despair with OUR LOVE

and in doing so, present an opportunity to accurately demonstrate God's nature in Christ...

AND...

give our fellow human beings an opportunity to align themselves with God more than before they met us.

 
And guess what?
 
We do this same thing FOR ANYONE struggling with ANY SIN!
 
Exactly what Greg has been saying.
How about that?


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/27/2006 12:39:50 PM (GMT-5)

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selah
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That was interesting Tom.
I especially liked the first part.
So, what do you think... are you now
convinced that there's going to be
SEX in HEAVEN?

come on ... just admit it :-)

...

selah


"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's nice and theoretical, Mephi. Who would actually disagree with it as you've worded it? I mean, we all want to "provide opportunities" for people to get free from privation and move to a more fully actualized reflection of God's beauty. Sounds nice. But we both know it's got to be turned into action points. HOW do we "present an opportunity for gays to align themselves with God more fully"? What's that mean on the ground--for communion, for ordination, for confirmation, for leadership, for knowing how to concretely oppose the privations of divine beauty. I know you see the rub. It just AIN'T going away with rhetoric baby.

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 9/27/2006 12:44:58 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You'd like that wouldn't you Selah? Come on now. (Just kiddin!)

When I figure THIS world out I'll start on the world to come.

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom:
It's nice and theoretical. But we both know it's got to be turned into action points. HOW do we "present an opportunity for gays to align themselves with God more fully"? What's that mean on the ground--for communion, for ordination, for confirmation, for leadership, for knowing how to concretely oppose the privations of divine beauty. I know you see the rub. It just AIN'T going away with rhetoric baby.

You know I know that. But I know that YOU know that if we have a screwed up theological framework from whence we work...we are ALWAYS going to have dysfunctional praxis.

Think about it. Could there be ANY WAY a person who really believed everything we are saying here...would join any "God hates fags" movement ... try to BOMB any Planned Parenthood places?

No.
 
Pondering the view itself REMOVES certain things from consideration.

Let's get the FRAMEWORK first. So much stupid stuff has happened because we haven't done that.

We need to revisit the nature of sin...AND IT'S REMOVAL. This has consequences for our praxis...AND our ecclesiology.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 1:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Don't forget to check the "Evangelical Universalist" thread, Tom. Check the stuff over there.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

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One Love
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   Posted 9/27/2006 2:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh...and let's combat this now.

Our job is NOT to conquer the despair in the world. Jesus did that.

So our job is not to "fix" people who are in sin. Neither is it to form "who's in-who's out" committees...dealing with particular sin.

Our SOLE job is to BE who we are created to be by living in a constant worshipful posture where we are always open to the Spirit's activity...and living in the law of love (Loving God and Loving Neighbor as we love Ourselves!) moment by moment.  We are always in the PRESENT with God.

We hear God's voice...and we know God's "law" of love.
 
(Anyone who's read "Repenting of Religion", "Myth of a Christian Nation", or at least heard Greg's LOVE series will know that this is NOT new material!)

This is not so say that there are practical ways that we live this out. But if we don't get this core, I guarantee that we will fall into a Christian functionalism and moralism where we TRY to make more beauty in the world by "fixing" sin in others and in society. We've already had years and years of this putrid crap in the Church that very well meaning followers of Jesus have fallen into.

Check Greg's last sermon on what happens when diseased doctors try to heal others.
 
Let's keep the main thing the main thing.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/27/2006 2:28:02 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/27/2006 5:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

tWO bOOKS:

http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Infinite-Aesthetics-Christian-Truth/dp/080282921X

The Beauty Of The Infinite: The Aesthetics Of Christian Truth (Paperback)
by David Bentley Hart (Author) "The rather prosaic question that initially prompted this long, elliptical essay in theological aesthetics, stated most simply, was this: Is the beauty to whose persuasive..." (more)

aND:

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Faith-Same-Sex-Attraction/dp/1888212756

CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SAME-SEX ATTRACTION – A New Book from Fr. Thomas Hopko

.

And then some FREE stuff on the web:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/HopkoHomosexuality.php

http://www.conciliarpress.com/again/content/view/82/9/9/

 


(o)

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selah
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   Posted 9/27/2006 8:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"putrid crap"
 
now THAT is good language! :)
 
 
 
love ya tonz Meph!!!
 
selah
 
 
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