 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 11/21/2006 9:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | | What do you think of praying for the dead? It's long been part of tradition in both the east and the west, but the reformers rejected it. But if ultimate reconcilation is true, maybe there's some merit in praying for the dead, especially those who died outside of faith? In other words, I'm much more open to this notion than I once was.
But what exactly would we pray for? It seems that nothing more can be done for them than is being done by God; the "intervention" has begun (or will soon, depending on the eschatological timeline). What is it about their situation could be influenced by prayer? Should I pray for my grandfather's repentance? What more could God possibly do to achieve that than he's already doing? My view is that dials are already set to max in terms of God's intervening pursuit.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/21/2006 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Oooo, great Q, Corey. Hmmmm. I'm gonna predict that D will say we can and should pray for them.
Here's my first thought.
1. It is helpful for our spiritual growth to find ANY REASON WE CAN to talk and listen to God. Period.
Next...
2. Sure. Why wouldn't we pray for them? They still exist, right? We love them, right? We pray for existing people that we love. We relate to God on behalf of existing people that we love. So, on what basis would a person NOT be able to pray for a dead loved one?
When we pray for the "dead", we may be expressing our loving concern for them. Our love for them (exhibited in our prayers) touches them through God's activity with them...for God IS love. This is not to say that we must pray for them particular about their salvation or something like that. It is to say that the act of focusing one's thoughts and heart on a "dead" person actually brings into actuality loving activity focused upon love of God and love of neighbor.
Kiekegaard even had a chapter in Works of Love that talked about loving a deceased person...and how he felt that it was one of the highest forms of love.
Just my thoughts...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 11/21/2006 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Sure. Why wouldn't we pray for them? They still exist, right? We love them, right? We pray for existing people that we love. We relate to God on behalf of existing people that we love. So, on what basis would a person NOT be able to pray for a dead loved one?
Corey: I should be more precise. My question is more specific than just prayer in general about or over or regarding the dead. I'm asking about prayers of petition, of supplication. Prayers where I'm seeking God's action in a particular regard. What sort of action would I be asking God to undertake in regards to my relatives who have died outside of faith? I don't think there's anything more for God to DO for them than he's already doing.
How could I pray for my grandpa to come to repentance any sooner? God is already in "intervention" mode in that regard; I believe he's already working to bring about his repentance as soon as possible. I don't think anything I would petition on my grandpa's behalf would be better than the project God is already embarked upon with him. See my line of questioning? | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 11/21/2006 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Namaste: Kiekegaard even had a chapter in Works of Love that talked about loving a deceased person...and how he felt that it was one of the highest forms of love.
Corey: Yep. I agree with SK that's one's love for another is revealed by how you relate to them when they are dead. Do you continue? Or was it temporal, based on what has passed? What in the present drives our passion for another? The answer, I believe, is along the lines of your moniker, Namaste -- God in them. Or to use SK's phrase, "God as the middle term."
But how much I love a dead one who is outside of Christ doesn't factor in to the efficacy of my prayers for them. If there's nothing more to be done for them, there's nothing more to be done for them, regardless of my passion. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/22/2006 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
My question is more specific than just prayer in general about or over or regarding the dead. I'm asking about prayers of petition, of supplication. Prayers where I'm seeking God's action in a particular regard. What sort of action would I be asking God to undertake in regards to my relatives who have died outside of faith? I don't think there's anything more for God to DO for them than he's already doing.
How could I pray for my grandpa to come to repentance any sooner? God is already in "intervention" mode in that regard; I believe he's already working to bring about his repentance as soon as possible. I don't think anything I would petition on my grandpa's behalf would be better than the project God is already embarked upon with him. See my line of questioning?
I see. I would agree that petitionary prayers for the dead wouldn't seem to be necessary, with respect to "speeding up" the intervention process. God would be doing the "max" that he could after death already. What one could do is to thank God wholeheartedly for the healing process that will complete in their being children of God. And thank God for the continuing beauty that they will bring to Creation unhindered by the snares of earthly temptations. Or it could be just as simple as "Lord, tell them I love them and can't wait to see them later!"
I guess I'm saying that we wouldn't need to pray in a petitionary way for them. But we can pray to God on their behalf in thanks and connection.
Not that we'd do it for this, but prayer for the dead can really be a very deeply developing exercise, as I see it. Can we imagine praying for Hitler...thanking God for his healing and sharing our sincere love with him via that prayer? Or Pol Pot? Or Stalin? Yeah...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! | | Back to Top | | |
|
Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 11/22/2006 2:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey: I should be more precise. My question is more specific than just prayer in general about or over or regarding the dead. I'm asking about prayers of petition, of supplication. Prayers where I'm seeking God's action in a particular regard. What sort of action would I be asking God to undertake in regards to my relatives who have died outside of faith? I don't think there's anything more for God to DO for them than he's already doing.
How could I pray for my grandpa to come to repentance any sooner? God is already in "intervention" mode in that regard; I believe he's already working to bring about his repentance as soon as possible. I don't think anything I would petition on my grandpa's behalf would be better than the project God is already embarked upon with him. See my line of questioning?
Heather: If I could also chime in here for a sec... here are a couple of thoughts I had (great topic - never really thought about this in depth other than the "tell _______ that I love him/her").
Let's take the parts I bolded from what you wrote... suppose if we applied this to those who are alive on this side of the curtain. Is God doing all he can to bring about repentance as soon as possible? We've agreed (I think) that God seems to have set up this world in such as way that our prayers do affect God's actions regarding bringing about one's repentance. God could have set things up to where our prayers wouldn't have any affect in this area because the "trying to get person X to repent" knobs would already be turned up to max. One thing though... we don't know for sure if the knobs are turned up to the max - and we even act as if they're not maxed out. Why? Because of the epistemic ambiguity we have in that area.
I'd say the same thing goes for those who are in hell/hades/gehena/or whatever. There's still ambiguity regarding how God is working even in that area. Perhaps God wants us to be "prayerfully active" in that area as well - to still care for those who might be there instead of saying, "ok their lot is cast." We don't know for sure if God has set up hell in such a way that our prayers won't influence the timing of the person's repentance - so as long as there is still that ambiguity, we ought to act as if God has set up the other side of the curtain in such a way that our prayers were effective.
Though I would say as well that our prayers for those on the other side of the curtain would probably be more ambiguous than for those on this side of the curtain because we have far far less epistemic access as to what's going on over there.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 11/22/2006 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | | When I lived in Lithuania, a relative of one of my friends, a Provoslav (Russian Orthodox), died. It struck me how different their dealing with death was from my own. They have an extended period of what I'll call mourning, but not in the sense of the word we evangelicals might use. It wasn't primarily about us, the survivors, expressing our grief over the loss, trying to come to grips with the situation. It was more about interceding on the dead one's behalf for God to forgive them, to have mercy, to receive them, to give rest. "Father, forgive him...". This sort of prayer didn't fit my model of things, yet this sort of prayer has a long tradition in the church. The point of these prayers is to improve their situation. In that tradition, to die and and not have people pray for you is a serious thing (so we see that lighting a candle for someone is important expression of prayer. The churches are FULL of candles.) My friend asked us, as missionaries, to please pray for his relative. We didn't have any framework to think about this as he was, so our prayers were about the survivors and about thanking God for the life this person had and so forth. We weren't on the same page.
Take a look at 2 Timothy 1:16-18 sometime and see if you think Paul is petitioning on behalf of the dead Onesiphorus. That's the way it's been interpreted in much of tradition. Also consider 2 Maccabees 12:43-45 for more background:
“[A]nd they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”
I hear VfG pointing out that if we're uncertain if prayer will help the dead, then we ought to default to do that, as it can't hurt and might help. A case could be made this is good advice. But in the case of the folks in this passage, they'd be out 2000 drachmas of silver...
My view of life and death is that God starts with the bonus round first. VfG asked, "Is God doing all he can [here] to bring about repentance as soon as possible?" My answer is no, in this lifespan God is willing to tarry awhile in bringing about our repentance. Here, we have more epistemic distance in regards to our choices. It's possible to live a life of faith, or a life of sin. What we do here determines our eternal reward, but not our eternal destiny, as eventually God closes the epistemic distance on the futility of sin (as proven at the cross) and the righteousness of faith. So in this world I can meaningfully pray for God to hasten his work in people's lives, but in the next God is radically engaged in that already. Post Edited (Corey) : 11/22/2006 6:35:49 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 11/22/2006 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead):
Outside the Bible the proof of the early use of prayers for the dead has been carried a step farther, for it is now impossible to doubt the genuineness of the copy of the inscription on the tomb of Abercius of Hieropolis in Phrygia. The 19th line of the inscription runs thus: Let every friend who observeth this pray for me, i.e. Abercius, who throughout speaks in the first person: he died in the latter part of the 2nd century.
The inscriptions in the Roman catacombs bear similar witness to the practice, by the occurrence of such phrases as:
- Mayst thou live among the saints (3rd century);
- May God refresh the soul of . . . ;
- Peace be with them.
Among Church writers Tertullian is the first to mention prayers for the dead, and that not as a concession to natural sentiment, but as a duty: The widow who does not pray for her dead husband has as good as divorced him. This passage occurs in one of his later Montanistic writings, dating from the beginning of the 3rd century. Subsequent writers similarly make incidental mention of the practice as prevalent, but not as unlawful or even disputed (until Arius challenged it towards the end of the 4th century). The most famous instance is Saint Augustine's prayer for his mother, Monica, at the end of the 9th book of his Confessions. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/22/2006 8:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
My view of life and death is that God starts with the bonus round first. VfG asked, "Is God doing all he can [here] to bring about repentance as soon as possible?" My answer is no, in this lifespan God is willing to tarry awhile in bringing about our repentance. Here, we have more epistemic distance in regards to our choices. It's possible to live a life of faith, or a life of sin. What we do here determines our eternal reward, but not our eternal destiny, as eventually God closes the epistemic distance on the futility of sin (as proven at the cross) and the righteousness of faith. So in this world I can meaningfully pray for God to hasten his work in people's lives, but in the next God is radically engaged in that already.
Agreed.
You know, something happens to me now that's interesting.
Whenever I'm by myself...and I pass a graveyard...and look at all the headstones...I smile.
I think of all those people NOT going through this craziness here and (possibly) ALREADY enjoying a measure of TRUE life and rest. I think of God redeeming all of those "dead" people...
And I smile soooooo big.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)
Everything that will be well...is well already! | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/30/2006 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
Daniel D. Farmer
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 12/1/2006 4:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | Aren't the dead dead? Whatever we say about praying for the dead or being baptized for the dead (how odd!), Paul is clear to say that these beliefs are anchored in the resurrection, rather than some kind of disembodied bliss. Or are we assuming that we get our resurrection bodies in 'heaven' right after we die (in a kind of 'first resurrection')?
As a physicalist, I think that the question 'where do people go when they die?' is about as meaningful as asking where thoughts go when they're not being thought of. In that situation, praying for the dead and/or being baptized for them has to do with covering wrongs they committed when they were alive, for their story surely ends with their death. It is only in God's grace that we are made alive at the final resurrection.
My two cents.
Cheers,
-Daniel- | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 12/1/2006 10:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | Corey: Okay... while we're at it. Baptism for the Dead... what's that all about??
"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).
Jeff: I've only got one conceivable idea about that verse, and I suspect it's wrong. But I've wondered if Paul is alluding to Christ's claim that his apostles would be baptized with the baptism of his sufferings. And perhaps the greek "huper" can have the idea of "over and above/beyond." If so, could Paul be saying something like:
What will those being baptized in Christ's sufferings (Christ's disciples) over and beyond those who have already died (thus?) actually accomplish thereby? Why, ALSO, are they even willing to experience that baptism of suffering over and beyond those who have already died thus if, in fact, there is no ressurection of the dead in the first place? Why do ALSO WE stand in danger every hour?? ........
If this is something like Paul's idea, maybe he is saying, "Why would we who are suffering and dying for/with Christ--over and beyond those who have already died in a baptism of such suffering--do so if there is nothing, post-mortem (i.e., ressurection life), to gain from it? If we thought there was hope in Christ in this life only, wouldn't we have learned from those already martyred and dead that the cost of obedience (i.e., suffering) renders the Christian life unprofitable? But there IS a ressurection!"
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:58 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|