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Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 12/7/2006 11:55 PM (GMT -6)

God knows best. I like to think he's doing his best too. I remember reading those Peretti books way back when, and he's got this idea that prayer makes the angels stronger. I don't know how serious he was with that, but at least he attempts to tackle the idea of prayer and spiritual warfare. What do people here think?

Not so hypothetical situation: A wonderful woman in my church gets cancer. She is very ill, and doctors don't give her long. The church gets going. We make sure she is taken care of, we pray individually, we pray as a church laying on hands. She gets better. They can't find a trace of the cancer. A little less than a year latter it shows up again. Same care, same prayer, same laying on hands. This time she doesn't make it.

I can make up senarios in which God had a reason to answer prayer the first time and not the second, but that is just me making up senarios. In reality, God knows best both times whether or not we pray. He will do the best thing regardless. "The dials are already set to the max."

Jesus, on the other hand, leads me to believe that prayer can be effective in getting God to do things which he would not otherwise do. There are also stories in the Bible where people prevail on God to allow things that are actually bad. (The formation of the monarchy comes to mind.) So, if the best is already in the works, and pray can effect change in God's actions, isn't all objectively effective prayer a change for the worse? Tell me why I'm wrong. I am wrong aren't I?

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 12/8/2006 9:27 PM (GMT -6)

Zach: God knows best. I like to think he's doing his best too...

Jeff: The question is, "best at what?" If God loves creatures by allowing them unrestrained freedom, then why would God hinder the freedom of volitional, spiritual agents that ill-affect us? Wouldn't that mean He doesn't love them by that definition of love?

Zach: So, if the best is already in the works, and pray can effect change in God's actions, isn't all objectively effective prayer a change for the worse?

Jeff: There was a whole thread on the subject a few months back. I got the impression from it that if God is actively minimizing evil (suffering?) within the bounds of some limiting constraint, then prayer may be ineffectual much of the time. The question is, "What is the 'limiting constraint?'" Presumably, it is not the sheer power of God, right? Surely, God has the sheer power to heal cancer. If you say it is (at least) the tolerance of unrestrained freedom, that alone is an awesome contraint. Especially if there are myriads of spiritual agents that are capable and desirous of harming us.

E.g., if we say "ask and it shall be given" AND we say "God must allow all volitional choice," THEN if someone asks to be healed while another is desirous and capable of causing or furthering the illness of that someone, we have a conflict. Which prevails?

Post Edited (jefscott) : 12/8/2006 8:34:53 PM (GMT-6)

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