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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/3/2004 7:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Discussion with my 70 year old retired very successful lawyer grandfather... | | Back to Top | | |
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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/3/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | This is the first detailed letter from my grandfather. This is in response to my requests to start a discussion on his beliefs about God. I welcome your suggestions and guidance as I prepare my response. Here it is:
"I apologize for the long delay in getting to you.I did not want to confuse
you with my beginning thoughts regarding visits by men from other planets. I do
believe that we have been visited by superior beings in years past and that
they were of benefit to the world rather than a detriment.
But let me make a few statements at the beginning so that my thinking on this
issue is made a bit more clear.
I do believe in God--always have.To me there is one God-the creator of heaven
and earth. But God is in spirit form. He has never appeared here on earth
though He controls everything. God made and controls the entire universe and all
that is with in it.We all have learned that the universe is unending and
continues to expand.What ever is included with in the universe is by Gods design so
that if there were visitors on our planet that also is by His design.
Further, if there were visitors then there was a purpose and I will deal with that in
the body of this letter.
I do not believe in evolution. I do, how ever, believe in intervention.We are
told that this earth is 5 billion years old and that man did not appear here
until much, much later.At the time of Abraham the world population was 500
million,(it is now over 7 billion) An interesting side note is that at the thim
of Christ it was 200 million and 1 million lived in Jerusalem.
I agree that history can be found in the Bible,as you said.And we both
recognize that Biblical history was passed down orally until the time of Moses. It
is said that if world history began with writing, then the first chapter opened
in Mesopotamia is the Tigres-Euphrates river valley.A script evolved there by
3,000 BC as a full alphabet which was adopted by neighboring peoples,
including Moses. It is my belief that this area saw intervention by extraterrestrial
beings as the ancient city of Babylon (now central Iraq) became noted for its
education, libraries, wealth, luxury and wickedness.
Moses was born about 1200 BC. About 550 years earlier Abraham was born in Ur
( at the Tigres-Euphrates valley) Again,it is my belief that visitors from
another planet were in place at that time.
In Genesis 18 we learn that Abraham looked up and saw 3 men standing nearby.
He fed them- they asked about Sara-and promised to return "about this time
next year and Sarah, your wife , will have a son."Abraham walked with these men
toward Sodom and Gomorra Two of the men (now called Angels) went into Sodom and
rendered numerous men blind as they attempted to sexually attack the men.
The two men told Abraham "The Lord has sent us to destroy it (Sodom)
Then the Lord rained burning Sulfur of Sodom and Gomorra.
These men, in my opinion, were not Angels, though I do believe there are
Angels.These are Angels of God and God speaks to us through His Angels but the men
on earth were here with God's consent and perhaps by his design.
There is a whole world of written material regarding Angels-I understand that
Catholics have volumes available and there are "Angelologists" who have
established rather detailed descriptions of their rank,their organization,Their
leaders and even have estimates of the number who function here on
earth.Interestingly they all adhere to the belief that Angels cannot procreate-they can
appear live or can move around invisibly.
In Genesis we see that when men began to increase in number on the earth, the
"sons of God married the daughters of man-any of them they chose"
It is also stated the Nephilim were on the earth-and after ward- and when the
"sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
they were the heroes of old, men of reknown.We also have the descriptions of
the visitors in Ezekiel--there can be no doubt that these were from another
planet and not Angels.
These thoughts are not intended to change any thing you or I believe in.My
belief in God is neither affected or changed by any of this and I do not contend
that any of the miracles of Jesus were performed by extraterrestrial beings.
I am very mush aware that any discussion of or on religion can cause ill
feelings, and I am obviously aware that you are much more knowledgeable on matters
of the Bible but I do want your reaction to these items. You must remember
that as a lawyer I read anything as if it is a brief of a proponent of a theory.
And I would like your thoughts on Angels--That is one part of the Bible that
really confused me.You know that I have problems with some of the Bible(a lot
with the Old Testament) and There is one part of the New that has been
bothering me.I believe that Jesus was deified at the time of His baptism and that he
truly is the given son of God. But would you explain for me that passage in
Hebrews that places Jesus lower than an Angel until after babtism.I remember
that Paul said in Colossians 2:18 that the worship of Angels disqualifies you
for the prize"
I await your response." | | Back to Top | | |
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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/4/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't see his "skepticism". From what little data is here, I see him pretty close to what many Christians believe plus some extra baggage about Angels/Demons being people from other planets. Not a big deal, imho. Heaven will be full of people who had core beliefs [1 Cor.15:1-5], a relationship with Jesus AND extra baggage.
I'd concentrate on what He believes about Jesus. He's already stated he believes Jesus did miracles and was deified at His baptism.
His major interest seems to be about angels.
I agree that his beliefs are very close to what many christians believe. But, I am concerned about his picking and choosing of what to believe about the bible. For instance, in previous face to face discussions he says he struggles with the authenticity of the virgin birth (he is very influenced by the contemporary philosopher Joe Campbell) and that Jesus is the only way. Further, I am concerned that his faith is merely head knowledge and not heart. I realize that many, many "christians" are at this point but I want to make sure I respond in a way that will move him towards knowing Jesus and not just knowing about him.
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 2/4/2004 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Further, I am concerned that his faith is merely head knowledge and not heart. I realize that many, many "christians" are at this point but I want to make sure I respond in a way that will move him towards knowing Jesus and not just knowing about him.
I know exactly what you mean here. My father-in-law has a mental assent of God. Ask him if he thinks that he has been born again. John 3:3 - Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never enter the Kingdom of God."
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 2/4/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I don't see his "skepticism". From what little data is here, I see him pretty close to what many Christians believe plus some extra baggage about Angels/Demons being people from other planets. Not a big deal, imho. Heaven will be full of people who had core beliefs [1 Cor.15:1-5], a relationship with Jesus AND extra baggage.
I'd concentrate on what He believes about Jesus. He's already stated he believes Jesus did miracles and was deified at His baptism.
You are right in that we need the core beliefs about the Lord, i.e The Gospel of John. But it should also mean something if you say you are a Christian, i.e. believing what the bible says. So if it says that in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and then 6 days later created mankind, what is before the beginning? Aliens from another planet and UFO's are a deception I think to get people away from the Word of God. Could I believe in evolution and still be a Christian? Well as long as I believed that God evolved everything will that be ok? I don't think so because that is not what the bible says. Satan is pulling double duty to bring about deception and there will probably be more to come as in
2 Thes 2:9
This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. 11 So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do.
So I think it is important to stick to the Bible.
quote:
Crusadre :I agree that his beliefs are very close to what many christians believe. But, I am concerned about his picking and choosing of what to believe about the bible.
This is what I mean. Further, I don't think that there are many Christians who believe in Aliens.
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/5/2004 6:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Thinking about this this morning. I think I need to address the angel/ufo issue. One thing I appreciated about Doc's book was that he addressed each issue his dad brought up. His replies were kept within the scope of that issue and then at the end of each letter he would always state his ultimate desire for his dad. I am trying to use that methodology as a model for my responses.
I think that if I address the issue of aliens vs. angels in the passages he mentioned, it could give more credibility to what the Bible says. Any suggestions on how I could address each passage he mentioned with regards to angels and aliens? | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 2/5/2004 9:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But God is in spirit form. He has never appeared here on earth
though He controls everything.
The wonderful thing about being "born again" is the fellowship of God through Christ. If he never ENTERED this world in the form of a child, the gospel would be just MORE news rather than good news. The bible is not just a historical document either, to be used for reference. Jesus is the Word, even before the foundation of the world.
quote:
What ever is included with in the universe is by Gods design so
that if there were visitors on our planet that also is by His design.
God's design or your grandfather's design? God designed the Bible so he needs to see the intricate design, the thread of Christ running through the scriptures. Not an easy task but a labor of love.
quote:
These men, in my opinion, were not Angels, though I do believe there are
Angels.These are Angels of God and God speaks to us through His Angels but the men
on earth were here with God's consent and perhaps by his design.
They are Angels? They're not Angels? Which is it? There is much more to your grandfather's skepticism than mere information. He is successful and he is in control of his life. I pray that he will lay down his life rather than try to keep it that he might gain eternal life. I will be praying for him along with you. I cannot wait to see the transformation.
As to answering him. I will be praying for you in that as well. Its late (early) so I have to get some sleep but I will be searching the scriptures on this. | | Back to Top | | |
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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/7/2004 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Have you given him Doc's book, Letters From A Skeptic? That would do a lot of the explaining for you.
No, I haven't because he won't read any books I give him. He will only do a personal discussion with me. Ugh, why does he have to believe in aliens. | | Back to Top | | |
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crusadre
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 2/7/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | | Can anyone give me a good explanation for Genesis 6? John MacArthur says "Now, the “sons of God” here, I believe, are angels. I think that’s the proper interpretation. " But, he doesn't sound too certain here and I can't find someone who does. Any authorities on this passage I should turn to? | | Back to Top | | |
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