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|  feelinahole Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2004 Total Posts : 754 | Posted 2/20/2008 4:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 5:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | DOES THIS HELP? IT DOES NOT ADDRESS IT HEAD ON...BUT, ONE CAN THEN ASK HOW "RULING" IS RELATED TO CHRIST'S HUMANITY.
I DON'T KNOW.
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The Heidelberg Catechism
Part II: Deliverance: God the Son
Q & A 50
Q. Why the next words: "and is seated at the right hand of God"?
A. Christ ascended to heaven, there to show that he is head of his church,^1 and that the Father rules all things through him.^2
^1 Eph. 1:20-23; Col. 1:18 ^2 Matt. 28:18; John 5:22-23 |
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 5:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
still don't know...
Belgic Confession:
Article 19: The Two Natures of Christ
We believe that by being thus conceived the person of the Son has been inseparably united and joined together with human nature, in such a way that there are not two Sons of God, nor two persons, but two natures united in a single person, with each nature retaining its own distinct properties.
Thus his divine nature has always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life,^44 filling heaven and earth.
His human nature has not lost its properties but continues to have those of a creature— it has a beginning of days; it is of a finite nature and retains all that belongs to a real body. And even though he, by his resurrection, gave it immortality, that nonetheless did not change the reality of his human nature; for our salvation and resurrection depend also on the reality of his body.
But these two natures are so united together in one person that they are not even separated by his death.
So then, what he committed to his Father when he died was a real human spirit which left his body. But meanwhile his divine nature remained united with his human nature even when he was lying in the grave; and his deity never ceased to be in him, just as it was in him when he was a little child, though for a while it did not show itself as such.
These are the reasons why we confess him to be true God and true man— true God in order to conquer death by his power, and true man that he might die for us in the weakness of his flesh.
(o)Post Edited (On Vacation) : 2/20/2008 5:10:25 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 6:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | | H., the direction my nose is pointing is towards the question of just what Christ does for us.
If Christ does something for us, and if that something is required for eternity, then it would seem necessary for Jesus to be human forever.
(o) Post Edited (On Vacation) : 2/20/2008 5:15:49 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 6:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 6:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Harold, here's my own thought.
We can depict God the Son because he became human. In the New Jerusalem, would we be able to behold God if the Son shed his humanity? (If not it would have to be because of some elevation of us.)
Will Christ continue to be a Mediator between God and man?
Does the Communicato Idiom have anything to do with this?
The doctrine of "deification" in Maximus is based upon the fundamental patristic presupposition that communion with God does not diminish or destroy humanity but makes it fully human. In Christ the hypostatic union the communication of idioms (perichõresis tõn idiõmatõn). The characteristics of divinity and humanity express themselves "in communion with each other" (Chalcedonian definition), and human actions, "energies," have God Himself as their personal agent. Therefore, it can be said that "God was born," that Mary is the Theotokos, and that the "Logos was crucified" while birth and death remain purely human realities. But it can and must also be said that a man rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father having acquired characteristics, which "naturally" belong to God alone: immortality and glory. Through Christ’s humanity deified according to its hypostatic union with the Logos, all members of the Body of Christ have access to "deification" by grace through the operation of the Spirit in Christ’s Church.
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  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/20/2008 6:33 PM (GMT -6) |   |
En-hypostasized in the Logos, Christ’s humanity, in virtue of the "communication of idioms," is penetrated with divine "energy." It is therefore a deified humanity, which however does not in any way lose its human characteristics. It is quite to the contrary. These characteristics become even more real and authentic by contact with the divine model according to which they were created. In this deified humanity of Christ’s, man is called to participate, and to share in its deification. This is the meaning of sacramental life and the basis of Christian spirituality. The Christian is called not to an "imitation" of Jesus — a purely extrinsic and moral act — but, as Nicholas Cabasilas puts it, to "life in Christ" through baptism, chrismation, and the Eucharist (o) | | Back to Top | | |
    |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/21/2008 4:59 PM (GMT -6) |   |
feelinahole said... That brings up a couple of questions: if Jesus's death is "once for all," why would he need to continue to be human? And two, can Jesus intercede for us without being a human body?
H., I think that the Heidelberger and the Belgic confessions (continental reformed) do a good job covering the necessity for and benefit of Christ's humanity in glory AFTER his death and BEFORE the last judgement. It benefits us in a necessary way. As they Heidelberger says, the Father rules all things through him.
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   |  Sahid Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 2013 | Posted 2/23/2008 2:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | I really want to believe in the necessity of God allowing natural evil, because the idea of natural evil under a benevolent God seems so contradictory to me. I think it's probably because I've lived such a comfortable life that I have such a sharp reaction to the idea of any justification of suffering. Because I want to see it so bad, I have to be careful not to jump to explanations that don't hold water. I get the feeling that the Church around the time of the early councils had a similar reaction to the idea of a divine man. I think they were so used to associating goodness with impassibility and changelessness (not the biblical sort) that they may have too quickly jumped to ways of thinking that accommodated these ideas. While I do believe that Jesus is (even now and forever) both God and man, I'm not convinced that this is necessary for salvation. I think it is the case that Jesus continues to be a man and will do so in the future, and I think he does this out of love, but the metaphysical "rules" that put restrictions on the savior have little backing and often serve as an obstacle to outsiders and insiders who have only seen the work of Jesus in this particular light.
God makes the rules, right? So, there is no way that it is metaphysically necessary that God become man before he can save man. God and the rules by which he created (except perhaps the most basic rules of logic like noncontradiction) are under his control. We need not invent a metaphysical rule that says salvation is only possible for those who are consubstantial with the savior. Rather, I think we are the ones who 'required' that God become man. We, the sinners, are the one's who demand divine blood.
"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing..."
Here and all over the NT, we see Jesus as one to be followed. Jesus calls his followers to be "followers," to imitate. The work of Christ and the work of the body of Christ are the same. The idea that Christ's work on the cross is not the work of his followers is not supported by the NT. It is not that Jesus must be human so that a metaphysical transaction can take place. This only serves to distract from Jesus' call to us: "Take up your cross and follow me." It is rather that we have such a difficult time following and imitating the holiness of a God who cannot be seen, that freely out of love God became man that we might look on him and be saved.
But who knows? I've been wrong before. Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 2/23/2008 1:29:36 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Traveller Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008 Total Posts : 1 | Posted 2/27/2008 10:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | But if the Son ceased to be human, what does that mean? That he's now dead? Jesus of Nazareth is fully human and fully divine. If he ceases to be human, then Jesus is gone, the resurrection has been undone.
I think the question isn't "why would he stay human" but "why would he become anything else?". Jesus , I don't believe, became a human just to "do a job", but to join with us as fully and completely as possible.
Why would he then want to undo that? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/27/2008 11:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
  |  Joe McCowan Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2008 Total Posts : 39 | Posted 3/24/2008 2:42 PM (GMT -6) |   |
I think the key to understanding the continuing humanity of Christ is found in the gospel itself.
In the incarnation, God was clothed in humanity in order to offer redemption to mankind, bridging the void between man and God that was created by sin. After being faithful in life, He suffered death and descended into the place of the dead, that He might conquer death and lead the way to eternal life. In the resurrection he arose physically, being the firstfruits from the dead. In His ascension He promised intercession for those who love Him. His continuing humanity is representative of humanity being redeemed.
As we follow Jesus, we do not follow Him into sin, because He did not sin. Death cannot hold the faithful disciples of Jesus, because death could not hold Jesus. As He was raised, the faithful will be resurrected into life eternal. The coming Kingdom will only be inhabited by the faithful who follow Jesus into it. Following Christ will not cease upon entrance to the Kingdom, but will continue throughout eternity. Jesus retains His humanity because He retains His role as the first-fruits of the Kingdom and will continue to lead His disciples eternally in Heaven.
In order for mankind to follow Jesus into the presence of God, Jesus had to walk where men walk, live the life man was intended to live, die the death that men die, take death and hell captive, be resurrected into life and lead us into the Kingdom of God by His current intercession. If Jesus forsook His humanity, He would sever the chord that connects man to God. Jacobs Ladder has to reach all the way to the top in order to connect Heaven and Earth. The perpetual humanity of Christ is therefore a necessary and foundational truth of the Christian faith.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 3/24/2008 10:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | POST WORTH READING:
March 24, 2008 by fatherstephen

I treasure the small volume of George Gabriel, Mary the Untrodden Portal of God. Gabriel occasionally strikes hard at the West and the book would perhaps be strengthened with a less combative approach to the differences of East and West in the faith (my own opinion), but I liked the book and found Gabriel addressing many things, well foot-noted, that are not found in many other places. I share an excerpt.
From eternity, God provided for a communion with His creation that would remain forever. In that communion mankind would attain to the eternal theosis for which it was made. The communion, of course, is the Incarnation through the Ever-Virgin. Mankind’s existence and, therefore, that of all creation is inexorably tied to Mary because she was always to be the Mother of the Incarnate Word. The fathers say that neither the course of human events nor necessity of any kind forced the Uncreated One to join to Himself a creaturely mode of existence. God did not become flesh because some actions of the devil or of man made it necessary, but because it was the divine plan and mystery from before the ages. Despite the works of Satan and the coming of sin into the world, the eternal will of God was undeterred, and it moved forward.
History and the course of human events were the occasion and not the cause of the Incarnation. The Incarnation did not take place for the Crucifixion; the Crucifixion took place so the Incarnation and the eternal communion of God and man could be fulfilled despite Satan, sin, and death. Explaining that there was no necessity in God the Father that required the death of His Son, St. Gregory the Theologian says of the Father “neither asked for Him nor demanded Him, but accepts [His death] on account of the economy [of the Incarnation] and because mankind must be sanctified by the humanity of God.” St. Gregory is telling us that, from before the ages, it was the divine will for mankind to be sanctified and made immortal by communion with the humanity of the Incarnate God, but corruptibility and death came and stood in the way. By His Passion and Resurrection, Jesus Christ destroyed these obstacles and saved, that is, preserved, mankind for the Incarnation’s eternal communion of the God-Man and immortal men. St. John of Damascus repreats the same idea that the Incarnation is a prior and indeed ontological purpose in itself, and that redemption is the means to that end. Thus, he says the Holy Virgin “came to serve in the salvation of the world so that the ancient will of God for the Incarnation of the Word and our own theosis may be fulfilled through her.”
It seems worthwhile to me, for us to meditate on the fullness of our salvation which is to be accomplished in God’s great Pascha. Indeed, it seems to me that everything always was about Pascha - the “Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth” (Rev. 13:8) We are approaching the end of all things - and, I should add, their beginning as well.
Reposted from a year ago.
http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/at-the-annunciation-the-cause-of-all-things/
(o)Post Edited (readingagoodbook) : 3/24/2008 10:36:48 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Joe McCowan Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2008 Total Posts : 39 | Posted 3/25/2008 6:54 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Sahid said...Is God unable to save those with whom he is not consubstantial? It is logically possible (i.e. no square circles here). So what other possible external constraint could there be upon God? He saves those with whom he is consubstantial. Why? Because metaphysical laws demand His obedience? No! Simply because he wants to. He decided this is the best way of doing it. There is no reason to invent metaphysical rules of salvation to which God is held captive, such as "If Jesus forsook His humanity, He would sever the chord that connects man to God." Actuality does not imply necessity.
Salvation is not a matter of necessity, it is a matter of choice. The offer of salvation is not a matter of necessity, it is a matter of choice. The means of salvation is not a matter of necessity, it is a matter of choice. These actualities were deemed necessary by God. The moment God chooses to follow a particular course, He has deems the course necessary, not by external demands placed upon Himself, but by His own choosing. In this sense, no act of God is an act of necessity, but given that every act of God was deemed necessary, His choices become necessities from the perspective of creation.
As I stated before; His continuing humanity is representative of humanity being redeemed.
It is not a matter of metaphysical rules of salvation, it is a matter of God choosing to become fully man and fully God in order to reconcile man to God. It is a matter of understanding what God deemed necessary, not what He did out of necessity. He deemed it necessary to unite Himself with humanity in order to unite humanity with God. To say that His continuing humanity is not a matter of necessity is to say that the incarnation was not a matter of necessity. Both are necessities, because both are actualities deemed necessary by God. They are not metaphysical rules, they are however logical steps that we can study and gain insight from.
Grace and Peace, Joe
(edited for clarity)
Post Edited (Joe McCowan) : 3/26/2008 1:51:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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