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Tom
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   Posted 3/17/2008 6:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

A lot of people make use of C. S. Lewis’ apologetic work, and understandably so. But our use of his apologetics doesn’t reflect what came to be Lewis’ own opinion of those arguments. Wikipedia (if it’s to be trusted, but in the case the footnote seems accurate) has an interesting note:

 

“A 1948 loss in a debate with Elizabeth Anscombe led to his reevaluating his role as an apologist, and his future works concentrated on devotional literature and children's books.”

 

The footnote to this reads,

 

“Frequently Asked Questions about C.S. Lewis. “According to George Sayer, Lewis's friend and biographer, Lewis regarded the debate as a defeat, and felt humiliated by it: ‘He told me that he had been proved wrong, and that his argument for the existence of God had been demolished’. ...The debate had been a humiliating experience, but perhaps it was ultimately good for him. In the past, he had been too proud of his logical ability. Now he was humbled. ‘I can never write another book of that sort’ he said to me of Miracles. And he never did. He also never wrote another theological book.

 

Tom


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/17/2008 7:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting.


(o)

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Sahid
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   Posted 3/17/2008 4:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like a lot of bits here and there, but I've had friends who say, "If being a Christian means being as irrational as Mere Christianity, count me out." So often Lewis is presented as THE Christian apologist, that I can't really blame them for giving up on Christianity.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 3/17/2008 8:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, do you know what argument Lewis used in the debate that he thought was invalid?


 

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Tom
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   Posted 3/18/2008 2:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not sure Jeff. Given Lewis' vow never again to write a book like Miracles, my guess is it had something to do with his arguments there. But the article was right, after that debate Lewis never again wrote an apologetic or theological work. That was it for him.

Tom


 

Post Edited (Tom) : 3/18/2008 3:02:32 AM (GMT-5)

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feelinahole
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   Posted 3/18/2008 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is interesting how events take on a life of their own. Antony Flew in his book There Is A God, mentions that event. He was at it. I can't quote the book itself (I gave it to my sister to read), but he says he was following Lewis after the debate and he claims Lewis shows no ill effects from the debate, that he was joking and talking about dinner. So who knows.
I personally think we tend to have our Christian heros; those of us who are really into them tend to defend them as if they are scripture. Those who aren't tend to downgrade them as if their work is on no value. It would be hard to say Lewis NEVER wrote another apologetic work, given he wrote on so much and a lot of it was published after his death. Plus, I remember a writer once saying that once his work is published he loses all control over it and how it is interpreted. Such is with Lewis. Barth said that God in his freedom reserves the right to use scripture how he sees fit. I would extend that to any work. How God uses Lewis work is ertainly up to him.
As for myself, I've known people who have greatly benefited from Mere Christianity and those who have not. One size does not fit all. Personally, I've always gravitated towards his fiction. I am a great fan of The Great Divorce and his sci-fi trilogy. But who am I to say? I like Soren K. and KArl Barth and my wife thinks I'm crazy.


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JET
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   Posted 3/18/2008 2:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Catherine H. Crouch, assistant professor of physics at Swarthmore College, reviews Francis Collins' The Language of God and Tom Wright's Simply Christian by comparing each with C. S. Lewis here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/002/10.26.html

Regarding Collin's book, Crouch notes that "Collins essentially gives the same argument for belief that Lewis presents in Mere Christianity: the Moral Law—the human instinct that right and wrong come from outside the individual, rather than simply being defined by each individual with reference to him or herself—points to the existence of One who is the source of right and wrong."  Crouch finds this to be a "limitation of Collins's book" and "a rather narrow slice of all the evidence that might be considered".  In terms of the choice of evidence, "Collins, far more than Wright, is Lewis' successor".

In contrast to Collins (and Lewis), Wright describes "four 'echoes of a voice': human beings' longing for justice, spirituality, relationship, and beauty, which Wright argues are longings because they reflect the character of God. Out of these longings, even before Christian theology is introduced, Wright paints a rich picture of what we might expect God to be like, one that dovetails far more closely with historical Christianity than the Moral Law alone."

Money quote:

Crouch:

Why this profound difference between Collins (and Lewis) and the opening chapters of Wright's book? As a biblical theologian in the early years of the 21st century, Wright has had to wrestle with the nature of truth and knowledge far more than either Collins or Lewis. As he writes at the end of the fourth chapter:

The sort of thing we could and should mean by "truth" will vary according to what we're talking about…. To "know" the deeper kinds of truth we have been hinting at is much more like "knowing" a person…. It's a kind of knowing in which the subject and the object are intertwined, so that you could never say that it was either purely subjective or purely objective. One good word for this deeper and richer kind of knowing … is "love."
 
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Tom
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   Posted 3/18/2008 4:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I liked Wright's book very much.

Tom


 

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Sahid
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   Posted 3/18/2008 7:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Millions of people associate Easter with a rabbit and colored eggs. Does this show that the tradition of egg hunting was the divine reason for the Resurrection? Or perhaps might there be some cultural phenomenon in between Easter eggs and the eternal will of God. The same goes for moral laws.

Nearly all human societies are based on the violent overthrow of their predecessors. Does this point us back to some Titanic struggle of the gods? If we are expected to understand God's invisible qualities by what has been made, why not?

Morality is not the monolith in 2001, inexplicable except by appeal to a higher power. Such monoliths tend to be found in the realm of special revelation, and they are quite often the product of noncritical thinking (which is not equivalent to faith).


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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feelinahole
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   Posted 3/18/2008 11:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have you guys read his new book, Surprised by Hope? Its very good...


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feelinahole
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   Posted 3/19/2008 7:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Certainly morality isn't the end all and be all of "proving" faith. But it just as certainly can help...


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JET
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   Posted 3/20/2008 8:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Feelin said...
Have you guys read his new book, Surprised by Hope? Its very good...


I'm in the process of reading Surprised by Hope in my spare time. I skimmed ahead to see if Wright (finally) talks about his views of hell and universalism, etc. (He does.)

It is interesting: In the review linked above, Wright's apologetic was contrasted with that of C.S. Lewis. However, when it comes to hell, Wright's views seem very similar to Lewis'.

I have found myself to be very sympathetic to the idea of UR as worked out and formulated by some on this board. However, Wright's eschatology seems to be much less individualistic. Wright seems to say that a final judgment (which I think (?) is closely connected with his idea of the final resurrection) is necessary in order to for God to set the world right in the end. He criticizes the universalist's suggestion that "God will continue, after death, to offer all people the chance of repentance until they finally give in to the offer of love." (p.181) It seems that Wright's eschatology, with its emphasis on final judgment, does not leave time or room for the "free will" version of UR.

It would interesting to see some interaction between the ideas of UR as formulated on this board and Wright's eschatology (given Wright's influence in the church today). Hint: Tom, I-Am-in-I-Am, Corey, Jeff, ...

Thanks!
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Tom
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   Posted 3/20/2008 9:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd like to read it then. Sounds interesting!

T


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 3/20/2008 8:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JET: He criticizes the universalist's suggestion that "God will continue, after death, to offer all people the chance of repentance until they finally give in to the offer of love." (p.181) It seems that Wright's eschatology, with its emphasis on final judgment, does not leave time or room for the "free will" version of UR.
 
It would interesting to see some interaction between the ideas of UR as formulated on this board and Wright's eschatology (given Wright's influence in the church today).
 
Jeff: Jet, my thinking on UR is still a work in progress, but let me quote myself from a previous post to give an indication of why I think Wright may be mistaken:
 
Christ, in Matt. 5, seems to say that the passing away of this heaven and earth will correspond to the fulfillment of all things written in the law and the prophets. Yet those writings used the same "age-abiding" language as the NT does. This tells me that "age-abiding" does NOT mean eternal. So the same would, presumably, be the case for the NT.
 
Therefore, the farthest the NT takes us is to that part where Christ delivers his kingdom to the Father. But if Christ's kingdom was finite in duration, maybe the Father's is too. In that case, there may be a time yet future to that, even, when all reigning, due to suffering, will be over. I hope that at that time, universalism will be actualized. This would completely resolve the problem of withheld good for me.
 
The other thing that helps me think this way IS the fact that reigning is associated with voluntary suffering for righteousness sake. So if even Christ's suffering results in a temporal reign, then I find it plausible that the whole scriptural idea of reign is temporal. In fact, the idea of reign doesn't seem to be particularly clear in the Garden of Eden, e.g.
 
The bottom line is, I've come to the conclusion that scripture never speaks in terms that we are to assume are absolutely eternal in perspective (even an immortal body is presumably not immune to God's destructive capacities). Matt. 5 seems to imply this somewhat clearly to me. This allows me to assume that future reigning is 1) associated with present suffering for righteousness sake, and 2) temporal.
 
If 1) & 2) are true, then UR is not scripturally or philosophically problematic. It just means that the means necessary to accomplish God's temporal ends require, as a condition, a lack of intervention into this world that most people would not associate with a loving Father. But so long as God is accomplishing the temporal end of his creation in such a way that existence is worthwhile ultimately for all, then the traditional problem of evil is solved.
 
Even those who wield the traditional problem of evil at us like a weapon concede that certain kinds of temporal sufferings (like normal nervous system pains) are not problematic. This view just weighs much greater (and seemingly absolutely futile) sufferings against eternal life and joy. And yet still there is apparently something so uniquely wonderful about the temporal glory we will experience in our temporal co-reign with Christ that it renders our temporal sufferings MUCH more than worth it. This uniquely temporal sentient satisfaction that Christ and we will experience is apparently known to God to justify not only our own temporal, volitional suffering with Christ, but His and Christ's also.
 
As for how the non-believers become believers? I think when Paul says every mouth will be stopped in the judgment that the implication is that all will know the truth and confess that Jesus is Lord as Phillipians says--even though all will not suffer and reign with him. All we need to ground the possibility of UR is the idea that scripture doesn't take us to an eternal state. And Matthew 5 greatly helps me see how all prophetic language of future and age-abiding events are to be understood as non-eternal.

P.S. A little late adding this, but here goes: Concerning judgement, I think judgment is necessary to reveal or affirm God's particular sentient nature to us. We have previously discussed the idea of ill-desert. But it is not judgment, per se, that is deserved, I think. It is PARTICULAR judgments that are deserved for PARTICULAR works--IOW, rationality requires justice in the administration OF judgment. So the necessity of judgment, per se, has to do with God's self-revelation.

As to how death plays into human accountability as opposed to that of angels, I'm still not sure. I think differences have been discussed on this board, but I didn't keep up with all that was said at the time. The closest thing I can get to an explanation is the statement in Genesis that God would not strive with man always since he is FLESH.

Maybe the point, there, is simply that man, by virtue of needing a body to remain conscious in that mode of existence designed for him (although God can make a dead soul conscious if He so desires), can be ressurected for judgment, with no need for intervening consciousness in between. Angels (those that are supposedly imprisoned til judgment, anyway) would perhaps need to be annihilated to terminate consciousness, though. If that's the case, it would make sense that death would be appropriate for humans, though not so, or even impossible, for angels. Just guessing.

That said, I would think the strongest scriptural argument against UR is Christ's statement that we should fear Him who can destroy BOTH body and soul in gehenna. What does it mean to "destroy" the soul? I would like to believe that it just means that God can apply suffering EVEN to a bodiless soul to implement a fully just judgment, if necessary.


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 3/21/2008 9:23:56 AM (GMT-5)

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