 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Carlie was murdered--Where was God? | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2004 2:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | Argh. There's SOOO much I want to say. Time, dangit. I need more time.
Let me just say this briefly.
I understand that in order to exonerate God from being "responsible" from evil, we'd rather have the mystery in the components and "rules" of Creation rather than God's purposes. I guess it just makes us feel better.
But here's the thing. Do we ever think this out...about what it actually looks like when we do this?
For example, I've talked about Jenie before. The little girl who was physically and emotionally abused for 12 years by her grandparents. They kept her in the basement, strapped to a potty chair...and would never speak to her, just growl. When the authorities finally found out what was going on, she couldn't speak or walk upright. She was a complete mess.
Let's take the "God does EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER to maximize good and minimize evil in Creation as a whole, WITHOUT CONDITION" approach. Does it bother anyone that this implies that God was relatively helpless to save ONE LITTLE GIRL from this 12 year torture sentence. Obviously, God couldn't send an angel to release her, like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't scare the bejeezus out of the grandparents to make them come to their senses, like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't come to anyone in a dream and tell them about the situation...like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't, by his Spirit, lead someone to that house and to Jenie to save her. God could do nothing but BE there in that situation...knowing it was going on. Obviously, the great and powerful God was SEVERELY LIMITED for twelve years as this little girl suffered. Remember, according to Doc, God did absolutely EVERYTHING in his power, without condition, to release this girl from this abuse that whole time!
Oh, don't let me forget the baby who had to have his penis removed because his negligent mother left him and his 2 siblings (the oldest of which was 5 or 6) alone for days. Yeah. She left bowls and cereal on the floor and bounced. By the time the authorities found out what was going on, the youngest had to have his diaper surgically removed and his penis removed as well.
I suppose God's hands were COMPLETELY tied up with that one. No visions forthcoming. No dreams. No angelic support. No voice from heaven. No nothing.
What this view ends up saying is simply this: If God does manage to act on your behalf, YOU GOT LUCKY. The planets were aligned, prayer cover was good that day, the territorial spirit didn't look in your direction, enough human free will wasn't against it, the angels of God weren't sleeping on the job. Etc. Etc.
Does this LOOK that the God represented in Scripture??? Does this LOOK like the God that open up a fissure and swallowed up a whole family? Does this LOOK like the God that killed Ananias and Sapphira? Does this LOOK like the God that could stop a whole friggin storm by saying "Peace, be still"???
I suppose we would rather see God PRACTICALLY FINITIZED rather than see God do or allow things that we don't understand for divine purposes that we cannot fathom.
Hmph.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2004 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc's view of God reminds me of a broke down television! Yeah. You can get good reception, but…
-it has to be a clear day. Any cloud cover and it's over.
-there has to be a metal clothes hanger in the back.
-the hanger has to be tilted EXACTLY 45 degrees to the right, and have aluminum foil on the end.
-the tv itself has to be facing the west.
-people have to be at least 3 feet AWAY from the tv. Otherwise the reception will mess up.
In other words, if ANY of these things ain't happening, you ain't getting good reception. ALL of these things must be in place for you to get the good picture.
Same way with God. You can get some divine assistance, BUT
-there has to be ample prayer cover
-there has to be low demonic activity around the event (enough for God to combat effectively, at least)
-human beings must not be integrally working against the event (TWT 4, ya know)
-angels that God sends must be doing their jobs
-random chance goes in God's favor
-not too much sin in the life of the person being helped.
Now, if all those things are in place, THEN maybe you can get that healing, or that deliverance, or that salvation from struggle. Hey, maybe you can get an angel saving YOUR life, or God given YOU a vision or whatever. But if you get it…Count yourself lucky!
It would be ABSOLUTELY INCONCEIVABLE that God might actually have the power to do these things IN SPITE OF free willed action. It is IMPOSSIBLE that God would have the ability to heal, deliver, and set free...even when NO ONE'S praying. It's outright NONSENSE to believe that God is mighty enough to withstand whole cadres of demons to accomplish what he wants accomplished.
Man, I'm such an idiot.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
quote:
Although, I will say Doc's view of God is still much more plausible than ANY other view I've read. Calvin...um..no. See, thing is Meph, with the fact that the world REALLY LOOKS LIKE a mess and many times prayer is NOT answered, I don't think we can present a more just view of God than the warfare view. How do we explain the mess? How do we explain the kids in pain? How do we address Carlie's mother?
I would agree with that, Selah. I would say that the warfare worldview does help in explaining a lot. Here's the dilemma that I believe is caused. Doc and I have talked about this before. Once you say that it really is possible for God to do an act of deliverance unilaterally (in this case, acting over and against any and all the opposing forces God faces), then you have the problem of evil all over again. Why THIS person and not THAT person? Why THIS little boy and not THAT old man? Basically to say that God could save ANYONE he wanted is to raise the question about why he didn't save EVERYONE. And even in the context of the warfare worldview (which explains why he doesn't save everyone), and you could say that God only exercises this power sometimes (as opposed to all the time), the question would still be raised about UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS doe God use this power. Is it just God's mysterious purposes? What grounds these purposes? Pretty soon…Bam! Problem of evil all over again.
It's easier to say that God ALWAYS operates within the arena of the self-created limitations…meaning God ALWAYS follows the rules of the TWTs. That's the only way that Doc can say that God always works for maximizing the good and minimizing the evil in Creationwithout condition. But this happens at a serious cost. God, for all intents and purposes, becomes a FINITE, rather helpless being in many instances of evil…ESPECIALLY when you look at situations like Jenie's. Assuming that God really wanted to remove Jenie from that bondage as soon as it began, you have to come to the conclusion that, out of all of the things we've born witness and testimony to God doing (both in Scripture and in our lives), God was ABSOLUTELY POWERLESS to do ANY of those things for 12 years when it came to delivering Jenie. That's either a hard sell…or a hard pill to swallow!
As far as addressing Carlie's mother, I'd say we address her with what I believe to be the truth:
1) God loves her and loved Carlie. Jesus showed us that.
2) God empathizes and is saddened over the event, whatever the dynamics.
3) From a theological vantagepoint, I don't know all the factors of why this PARTICULAR evil event happened. I can guess or propose…but truth be told, I just don't know.
4) But I DO know that God knows more than we know, which is why he can so much more fully empathize with the event and greive over it…and…
5) I do know that we have to face things like this with faith, hope, and love, both in ourselves and in God's gracious Spirit to carry us through.
**************************************
Selah:
quote:
Additionally, I was just thinking of how incredibly "faithful" God has been to me personally. What is up with that? Honestly, I pray and I trust God and ya know...He has been very faithful. There's something to this crazy relationship thing we have...I just don't get it.
I know what you mean. Heh. 
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | FYI,
This is the reason I think Doc's view is more aptly called trinitarian process theology.
Doc's view is a sythesis of the process view of God and the orthodox view…in this way…
God works by PERSUADING and GUIDING people and events to go the way he wants them to go…and if enough things line up, THEN it effectively clears a space for God to DO something, like speak or act. Otherwise, God's hands are effectively tied.
It takes the insights of process (the persuasion bit), but at the same time, it doesn’t deny that God can speak or act!
The main difference between Doc and me is that I believe that God does this WITHIN God's own parameters. Meaning that sometimes God will operate this way, but according to God's purposes, sometimes God will operate or set things up completely unilaterally.
In other words, I don't universalize the "persuasion" thing.
Does everyone see the difference?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 2/10/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | **********************************************************************
WARNING - the post below was edited in the middle of the night and barely resembles the original. My apologies to all. I couldn't sleep!
**********************************************************************
quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
God works by PERSUADING and GUIDING people and events to go the way he wants them to go…and if enough things line up, THEN it effectively clears a space for God to DO something, like speak or act. Otherwise, God's hands are effectively tied.
It takes the insights of process (the persuasion bit), but at the same time, it doesn’t deny that God can speak or act!
selah:
Ok, thinking this through, I guess much of my relationship could be described as God's persuading and/or guiding me in life and my choices to follow Him toward good outcomes or not. In hindsight, I can see where I listened and followed and where I did not. I see where my responses to His leading were profitable and good and where my resistance to Him was not. Additionally, there were times when I didn't sense His persuading at all. Did He stop persuading during those times, was He persuading toward another kind of outcome (not good or loving) and I didn't recognize it, or perhaps I wasn't tuned in to His persuasion at all? Who knows...
I loved your TV analogy (shhh ;) and agree with you that in view of things like the exceptions to these "rules" today, the miracles that really do happen, and the fact that if one unilateral act goes through we're stuck with the problem of evil all over again. (which s**ks.)
On the other hand, I think there is some comfort to be found in learning to live in ambiguity in the sea of variables and I believe to a large extent this is necessary in order to make peace with the problem of evil. Even when this theory demands that many variables must "line up in such a way" before God can act. It still seems like the most viable option. Afterall, these variables are scripturally and scientifically based (persistence in prayer, the faith of the person praying, the faith of the one being prayed for, chaos theory, TWT's etc). The problem I'm running into these days is that God just seems bigger and more faithful than that. I don't know. Maybe my thinking is closer to what you mean by His purposes vs. rules & variables - that if He can operate unilaterally at all, or if He operates within the confines of variables and rules (toward His purposed outcome) we are still stuck not knowing. There is no formula, no aligning of the stars, no pinch of this and dash of that that ALWAYS assures He is doing ALL that He CAN possibly do to minimize evil and maximize good. It just doesn't look that way in the world. And, since there is the possibility that He can trump the variables. We just can't know. (BTW shouldn't we be happy that he can trump the variables? I know if I'm praying for a miracle, I'm also holding out hope that He can trump the variables!)
So, what do we do? I guess we do the variables. We work to get good reception, get out the clothes hanger, tilt it just so, add foil, face the tv to the west, tell everyone to get back 3 feet, and wait for a clear day. Heck, we can stand on one foot and whistle Dixie too if that's what it takes...I guess.
quote:
Mephi,
The main difference between Doc and me is that I believe that God does this WITHIN God's own parameters. Meaning that sometimes God will operate this way, but according to God's purposes, sometimes God will operate or set things up completely unilaterally.
Selah:
Help me out here Meph, can you give me a couple "such as" statements?
For instance, what specifically do you mean by God's own purposes -- is this where the "greater good" stuff comes in? I really struggle with the train track thing. Sure, as in Tom's example, I might take one girl scout down rather than 10, but does God have to take any? If so, how come?
quote:
In other words, I don't universalize the "persuasion" thing.
selah:
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you don't believe God persuades everyone toward loving and good outcomes always...only some people? or only sometimes (because He may have other purposes). Furthermore, He decides which people and which times according to His own parameters (for this specific person in relation to that specific event etc.)
Am I close? Am I lost? Am I delirious ?
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
|
johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/10/2004 6:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Borg said
“Another comment regarding the idea that Calvinism says "God makes the mess"- NO. There is no mess, there is no mistake. God is not cleaning up the mess but spinning all to His glorious wonderous will that is complete and perfect in every aspect.”
John asks?
My question, “Is EVERYTHING that is or was God’s doing?”
If so…Since God can only do “good.”
There is no such concept as evil. No ultimate distinction between good and evil…Evil simply does not exist.
This is Eastern “Philosophy” and not Christianity which clearly distinguishes between good and evil.
Scripture defines the fallen world in no uncertain terms… “The world IS a mess.”
Now, “Who made the mess?”
If God made the mess but it is really not a mess (only a “perceived mess”) you have just moved Christianity into the realm of the
Hindu and you have violated the emphatic statement of James—“God is not the author of evil.”
What is it that God is “spinning all to His glorious wonderous will that is complete and perfect in every aspect.”?
Something that is ultimately good (because God is the ultimate author of all (per Calvin) doesn’t need to be spun.
I submit that Scripture clearly testifies that Satan and Man made the mess and God is redeeming it.
Otherwise, the concept of goodness, justice, holiness, etc, not only becomes counterintuitive but arbitrary and meaningless.
To God alone be the glory,
John
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/10/2004 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Mephi,
The main difference between Doc and me is that I believe that God does this WITHIN God's own parameters. Meaning that sometimes God will operate this way, but according to God's purposes, sometimes God will operate or set things up completely unilaterally.
Selah:
Help me out here Meph, can you give me a couple "such as" statements?
What specifically do you mean by God's own purposes -- is this where the greater good stuff comes in? Also, sometimes God will operate or set things up completely unilaterally (such as?) Thanks.
Ok. Example. We say that God used his interaction with Abraham to bless all of the nations of the world. We never seem to ask the question WHY? WHY, out of all the potential people in the planet did God choose Abe?
Now, taking Doc's view, that God ALWAYS does the "most that God can do" in ALL situations, we'd more than likely have to conclude that God believed, given God's infinite intelligence, that God figured that Abraham would be the best fit for the job. God pondered ALL other options for optimizing Creation and made the BEST possible choice…because that's how God operates at all times…right??
OR…
We could say that God just chose Abrahamfor some purpose OTHER than trying to make the MOST OPTIMAL CHOICE, all things considered. In other words, God made a choice that was NOT an situation optimizing choice. And once that choice was made…and the covenant with Abe, God would work via persuasion and do what he can to continue those purposes WITHIN the parameters of the Abrahamic line of descendents that God set for Godself!
See what I'm saying? I believe that God's choice of Abraham was a UNILATERAL choice. I believe that God can do the most optimal things WITHIN other things that are unilaterally chosen. Hope this helps.
_____________________________
Selah:
quote:
Meph:
In other words, I don't universalize the "persuasion" thing.
selah:
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you don't believe God persuades everyone toward loving and good outcomes always...only some people? or only sometimes? Furthermore, He decides which people and which times according to His own parameters (for this specific person in relation to that specific event etc.)
This goes into the idea of election, for me. Check it out. Remember how we talk about God's impartiality? God is no respecter of persons, right? Well, how do we reconcile that with God OBVIOUSLY choosing some people rather than other people for certain purposes? Isn't that being partial? I think the reconciliation of that is simple: God is no respector of persons, but God is a respector of PURPOSE…and insofar as persons fit into purposes, those person are accordingly dealt with.
God loves and esteems ALL people exactly the same…HOWEVER different people have different callings and different purposes. To the extent that some purpose may either conflict or be superceded by other purposes, some people may feel the fallout of that. I don't believe that God loved Abraham any more or less than anyone else on the planet. I also don't believe that God really did some analysis and deemed Abraham the BEST man for the job of having a line of descendents through whom salvation would be made available (though that certainly could have been the case) I DO believe that God chose Abraham for a reason that God knows. Period.
Now, in my belief, how this plays out, with respect to God's persuasion is this: God always persuades in the direction of a combination of two factors: 1)creational factors and 2) God's own purposes. HOW these two interplay at any time can vary, but not the factors. What this means is that it is POSSIBLE that for reasons that God has God could withhold persuasion towards loving and good outcomes. (An example of this in my mind would be God's interaction with Pharoah).
Hope this helps,
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah: I honestly don't know if I would say "God ALWAYS does ALL God CAN do to maximize love and minimize evil." The world just doesn't look that way. Rather, I might say "God ALWAYS wants love and goodness to be maximized and evil to be minimized, but He needs other agents to cooperate in order to bring love and goodness about." Maybe in essence that's saying the same thing.
Tom: To me it's saying the same thing. We're saying that OUR CHOICES are part of the matrix. We influence how much God is able to acheive because he's purposed to achieve much through us. So yes, God's wanting love to be maximized and evil to be minimized includes his doing what he can to bring that about, including encouraging us to play our part. Remember, God "looked for a man to stand in the gap and couldn't find one." We're part of the factors that influences the outcome.
Selah: The problem of evil s**ks.
Tom: For suuuure.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah: What I'm wondering is: "what precisely IS all God CAN do?"
Tom: We can't possibly know it all. But we can know THAT he does all he can do.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: Let's take the "God does EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER to maximize good and minimize evil in Creation as a whole, WITHOUT CONDITION"
Tom: The point is God's action isn't without condition. It is conditioned. Maybe you mean "Without failure God does everything in his power given all the factors to maximize good and minimize evil."
Mephi: Does it bother anyone that this implies that God was relatively helpless to save ONE LITTLE GIRL from this 12 year torture sentence. Obviously, God couldn't send an angel to release her, like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't scare the bejeezus out of the grandparents to make them come to their senses, like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't come to anyone in a dream and tell them about the situation...like he's done other people. Obviously, God couldn't, by his Spirit, lead someone to that house and to Jenie to save her. God could do nothing but BE there in that situation...knowing it was going on. Obviously, the great and powerful God was SEVERELY LIMITED for twelve years as this little girl suffered. Remember, according to Doc, God did absolutely EVERYTHING in his power, without condition, to release this girl from this abuse that whole time!
Tom: Besides the "without condition" (since God's actions in our world are always conditioned by our world), I think yes. This answers more questions (not all questions) than anything else going.
Mephi: What this view ends up saying is simply this: If God does manage to act on your behalf, YOU GOT LUCKY.
Tom: Well, not quite. It still remains that God was involved at all levels doing what he could do. So when we are saved it's purposeful.
Mephi: Does this LOOK that the God represented in Scripture??? Does this LOOK like the God that open up a fissure and swallowed up a whole family? Does this LOOK like the God that killed Ananias and Sapphira? Does this LOOK like the God that could stop a whole friggin storm by saying "Peace, be still"???
Tom: Yes, it does sort of look like the God represented in Scripture, the God who sometimes heals and sometimes doesn't, sometimes rescues (Peter from Prison) and sometimes doesn't (James got beheaded), who sometimes wins and sometimes looses.
Are you saying God always wins?
Dominoooooos!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: Is God really so RULE based?
Tom: I don't think we're so far apart. It's not that God is rule based, though he certainly shows himself in Scripture to be a lover of "covenants." It's that behind the rules is a purpose. The purpose defines the sort of rules that need to be in place. And it's our understanding of God's purposes for us that determine more than our understanding of the rules where we come out on this issue.
I'm not happy with the grandparents torturing the childchild for 12 years. What's inconceivable to me is that I'm more unhappy with it than God is. And I'm very interested in understanding whether or not the Cross can be viewed as God taking responsibility for such things.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah (to Mephi): So, if I'm hearing you correctly, you don't believe God persuades everyone toward loving and good outcomes always...only some people? or only sometimes (because He may have other purposes).
Tom: Just to fine-tune it for my own benefit: "...you don't believe God attempts to persuade everyone toward loving and good outcomes, only some?" Mephi (I still might not be understanding ya bro) posits a divine purpose "beyond" loving and good outcomes. We don't know what it is, but we know it's beyond loving and good. If it's loving and good, in what sense is it beyond maximizing love and goodness? I dont' know. God could have rescue Jenie but didn't want to because her torture was required by some purpose of God beyond love and goodness? This helps?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/10/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: Thanks for the tip about editing and quotes and no, if you mean me, I don't believe we have. Glad to meet you.
Selah: You wrote, "My problem is with the why. Why does it all have to play out? ya know. Why didn't Jesus pray for us to be taken out of the world? What precisely is "All God CAN do"??"
"Why" is probably the biggest problem for all of us and a legitimate question. A good one to ask the Father, though we may not get the answer 'till we see Him face to face. My response to "Why does it all have to play out?" is that it is His desire, His longing, that none should perish and that He will tarry as long as possible so that as many as possible will know Him and because He wanted us to genuinely choose and genuinely love - it has to "play out." Dr Boyd said that in order to have a world where love is possible that the opposite has to be possible as well. I think I'm beginning to understand that. I don't know what "All God Can do" is, but I guess that is where I turn to Jesus and look at the character of God and have to believe that He does everything possible to minimize evil and maximize good - short of taking back the gift of free will that He created us with (which He'll never do). But at time He steps in, whether it is to answer prayer or accomplish His overarching purposes and whatever He does, His character never changes...only His response. That's what I believe in my heart and that is the experience that I have had with the Father. Actually I believe He "steps in" - that He speaks to us far more often than we dare imagine.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (Thanks for the welcom Laika...passes out donuts)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Mephi: Now, taking Doc's view, that God ALWAYS does the "most that God can do" in ALL situations, we'd more than likely have to conclude that God believed, given God's infinite intelligence, that God figured that Abraham would be the best fit for the job. God pondered ALL other options for optimizing Creation and made the BEST possible choice…because that's how God operates at all times…right??
OR…
We could say that God just chose Abrahamfor some purpose OTHER than trying to make the MOST OPTIMAL CHOICE, all things considered. In other words, God made a choice that was NOT a situation optimizing choice. And once that choice was made…and the covenant with Abe, God would work via persuasion and do what he can to continue those purposes WITHIN the parameters of the Abrahamic line of descendents that God set for Godself!
Tom: Or the choice of Abraham was made all things being equal, that is, Abraham didn't provide a unique advantage over anybody else and God simply chose. I don't doubt that God's choice fits his purposes for the world, but I don't believe those purposes somehow dictated Abraham (and none other) must be chosen. Why can't there sometimes be equally workable options for God to choose among?
Mephi: See what I'm saying? I believe that God's choice of Abraham was a UNILATERAL choice. I believe that God can do the most optimal things WITHIN other things that are unilaterally chosen.
Tom: But you posit an unrevealed purpose for what doesn't fit into "maximizing good and minimizing evil." Doesn't this mean you have God doing everything to fulfill a specific purpose just as you claim Doc and I do? You posit unknown purposes, but you still have God acting to fulfill them.
But as regards a choice like Abraham, I have no problem saying this was unilateral. No problem at all. But it was a "purposeful" choice. God didn't choose Abraham and THEN come up with a reason for choosing him. God acts purposefully even when his options are several.
Mephi: God is no respector of persons, but God is a respector of PURPOSE…and insofar as persons fit into purposes, those person are accordingly dealt with.
Tom: Oooo I like that Mephi. Serious, man, I like that.
Mephi: I don't believe that God loved Abraham any more or less than anyone else on the planet. I also don't believe that God really did some analysis and deemed Abraham the BEST man for the job of having a line of descendents through whom salvation would be made available (though that certainly could have been the case). I DO believe that God chose Abraham for a reason that God knows. Period.
Tom: Along with you Mephi, I want to avoid the impression that God is a slave to some list of requirements outside himself that all his choices have to fulfill before he can make them. But believing that God's choice of Abraham was made for the purpose of building a nation isn't a problem.
Hmmm. You seem to be asking "Why A-b-r-a-h-a-m and not someone else who provided the same probability of success?" OK. I'd agree with you that we don't know. But I disagree that this provides us some sort of paradigm beyond "maximizing good and minimizing evil" for understanding evil. I also question whether God has to have a specific reason for choosing one among several equally workable options. It's like deciding when I get up in the morning. I set the alarm to wake me up ten minutes before I NEED to get up. I like to take it slow. I lay there and stretch. Sometime in that space I decide to get out of bed. Why did I choose, for example, to get up at the 7th minute instead of the 4th or 8th? It's a unilateral choice, yes. But does positing some SPECIFIC reason for minute 7 over any other minute actually explain anything? No. I just get up. I just choose. No specific reason. (I think God's as free to choose between equally workable options as this. No secret purpose at all. Just a choice.) My choice to get out of bed at minute 7 over all the other possible minutes was not made with reference to some specific plan I have for life or ministry. I just felt like it. But the choice TO get up at all is purposeful and conditioned by whatever it is I purpose to do that day.
Mephi: Now, in my belief, how this plays out, with respect to God's persuasion is this: God always persuades in the direction of a combination of two factors: 1) creational factors and 2) God's own purposes. HOW these two interplay at any time can vary, but not the factors. What this means is that it is POSSIBLE that for reasons that God has God could withhold persuasion towards loving and good outcomes. (An example of this in my mind would be God's interaction with Pharoah).
Tom: Dude, God's interaction with Pharoah is perfectly accountable on the grounds that God was doing all he could do to maximize good and minimize evil.
I'm dizzy now. Hey, Doc's back from Cambodia. Doc, chime in here. It's YOUR theodicy!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/10/2004 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Hello Meph. Nice to meet you. You were saying,
"What this view ends up saying is simply this: If God does manage to act on your behalf, YOU GOT LUCKY. The planets were aligned, prayer cover was good that day, the territorial spirit didn't look in your direction, enough human free will wasn't against it, the angels of God weren't sleeping on the job. Etc. Etc."
Take another view, the classical view for instance. That view says that God foreknew what would happen and that He controlled everything up until that point to bring it about - right? How is that comforting? He is still all powerful, all good, all loving - but doesn't step in? I find that much less comforting then knowing that an all powerful, all loving, all good God is doing all He can to prevent what human and other agents with free will are determined to do. He didn't prevent satan from roaming "to and fro" on the earth and causing grief. To do that He would have had to revoke free will.
If we believe that He's not doing all He can do - then how can we see Him as all good and all loving? This is the only view that makes sense to me. I have to believe that He does. He's not a "hand-wringing God" (Ware states that the Open View portrays God as this). On 9-11 He gave men and women the courage and boldness to bring a plane down in an open field? Did He step in? I think so. I believe He intervened in more ways than we realize that day. Did he stop disaster...no, but He was working to minimize the evil and maximize the good. I believe that wholeheartedly.
(Thoughts from a novice) God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 2/10/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: Now, in my belief, how this plays out, with respect to God's persuasion is this: God always persuades in the direction of a combination of two factors: 1) creational factors and 2) God's own purposes. HOW these two interplay at any time can vary, but not the factors. What this means is that it is POSSIBLE that for reasons that God has God could withhold persuasion towards loving and good outcomes.
selah: Meph, I found this especially helpful. It sure does seem that there are 2 things going on. We can't look at the examples of evil given in this thread without wondering what God's purposes are.
However, I'm confused about one thing. Are you saying that sometimes God (through withholding persuasion toward loving and good outcomes) is behind some of the apparent evil in this world? For a second let's forget Pharoah and all OT examples and ask the question, Is God (in the NT or TODAY ) for God's own purposes, at work behind evil at all/ever? and if so, would we reason this God-evil, to be the evil that accomplishes a greater good or what?
I'm trying to understand WHY God would ever want to withhold persuading toward loving and good outcomes. Maybe this persuasion is conditional. I also wonder about things like persistence in prayer (why can't we pray only one time? What's with the unjust judge story in scripture? How come it is "according to our faith be it unto us"? and all that) Sometimes there seems to be a connection between God working (or persuading us toward loving and good outcomes) and our persistence in wanting/believing in those loving and good outcomes.
I also think it's extremely hard to reconcile any form of God-evil with who we see in Jesus Christ.
oh man, I need to go to sleep
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/10/2004 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah: How can we know that He does all He can do?
Tom: The cross would be a big indication. There's God paying the most, doing the most, exemplifying the most. It's not hard to imagine that he's that kind of God all the time, is it? And then, I suppose, if one believes "God is love" is, as John says, a biblical notion, one could argue a being who could do good but did not was less than good. To know to do good and not do it, at least for us, is sin. Might that help us understand God a bit?
Selah: I'm thinking about Meph's example of the 12 year old girl. Now, how is THAT all He can do? I like the way Mephi put it:
quote:
It's easier to say that God ALWAYS operates within the arena of the self-created limitations…meaning God ALWAYS follows the rules of the TWTs. That's the only way that Doc can say that God always works for maximizing the good and minimizing the evil in Creationwithout condition. But this happens at a serious cost. God, for all intents and purposes, becomes a FINITE, rather helpless being in many instances of evil…ESPECIALLY when you look at situations like Jenie's.
Tom: It doesn't make God finite as much as it does condition God's actions in our world to our world, and that by God's own design and choice. Is God helpless? Sometimes yes. God tells us so. God looked for somebody to stand in the gap so he wouldn't have to destroy people. He couldn't find anybody, so judgment suffering and pain (judgment) was the result. Interesting. This seems to be exactly the sort of thing Mephi wants to discout in positing an unrevealed higher purpose beyond love and goodness that requires the evil in question. But God simply says, "The good I wanted to do was not possible because people tied my hands." Are God's hands ever tied. Absolutely. And my guess is the pain and suffering that followed from the judgment God wanted to avoid (spoken of in Ezekiel) was greater than Jenie's suffering, multiplied many times. God wanted to avoid it. He couldn't. He says so.
Selah: THIS is the hard pill I can't seem to swallow! Sounds absurd to me...doesn't it to you Tom?
Tom: Not really, no. What if we didn't have Ezekiel and I told you that the widespred suffering of Israel (pregrant women slashed open, rapping, etc.) was something God wanted and tried to avoid but that factors outside his will rendered him, yes, powerless? Well, Ezekiel tells us that's exactly the case.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
| 777 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:18 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|