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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Carlie was murdered--Where was God? | Forum Quick Jump
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 2/29/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom:Shell this doesn't mean we're reducing people's value down to pure numbers...
Shell: Okay if we're not just talking numbers here and we apply Mephi's idea of God being a respector of purpose as opposed to respector of persons, then let's place two of my kids on the tracks...Grace on one...Anna on the other. Now if I am in God's shoes of choosing the "lesser of two evils" I have to evaluate their PURPOSE in deciding which track to switch the train over to. Do you believe God does this?
Shell
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 2/29/2004 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | |
Shell, your sense of goodness is inspirational.
Thank you.
Our Loving HEAVENLY FATHER "complicit in evil"?
NEVER.
Laika wrote:
quote:
The best analogies Jesus gave us are the parent/child analogies which is why these mothers can't grasp your abstract portrait of God as evil doer. There is no way I can get my mind around the implications being raised.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/29/2004 7:58 PM (GMT -6) | | All the analogies and all the ideas and all the debates point to one thing, God is God and we are we. All the speculation will not change the fact that God knows more than we do, sees more than we do and makes decisions based on the fact that he is a different being than we are and sees things from a different position than we do. We cannot make decisions as God would because we can never truly put ourselves in a "god" position. We will never know truly what it is like to be God and encompass all decisions at once. So it comes back to what has been said before: is Jesus's sacrifice worth trusting?
Oh, and everyone step back, take a deep breath and then go walk your dog, smile at your child, eat some ice cream. As the starfish said in "Finding Nemo,"
find my happy place, find my happy place... | | Back to Top | | |
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 2/29/2004 11:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Friends-
I have chosen to remove several posts from what were previously pages 37 and 38 which in my view were inappropriate given the misunderstandings and reactions. Any post that made reference to the exchange between Mephi and shell were deleted. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. Some will be happy these posts are gone and others will judge my action to be a mistake. For better or for worse, I acted in faith and did what I thought was best. Mephi seemed to want the exchange gone, and his apology to shell is posted on another thread.
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Removed paragraph
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If anyone wants a copy of the removed posts, I would be happy to email them to you.
It's not always easy to decide when to step in and it's never met with universal approval when action is taken.
ataraxia | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/1/2004 2:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Ataraxia, I give you permission to erase any post of mine that you feel inappropriate. I was trying to encourage people here but if you felt it inappropriate then I am glad you erased my post along with the rest that you took out.
Feelinahole, your last post was BEAUTIFULLY put. Thank you. I like that line from Finding Nemo too! | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 3/1/2004 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems to me that the central analogy of this thread, "Switching the train tracks," is a lame analogy, or at the very least, has a severe limp.  I'll defer to Professor Laika to decide which.
The choice whether or not to switch the tracks is one that presents itself when all other options are exhausted. It's too late to commandeer the train, warn someone, or take other actions. It's down to a single binary option, "Do I or don't I?"
To suggest that God finds himself backed into a corner this way, left with only one horrible choice, is to ignore the infinite intelligence of God and to play into the hands of those who would describe the "hand-wringing God" of open theism. It is to suggest that God finds himself forced to do evil in order to do good.
I'd like to see a new analogy (or surgery to get the other one walking again) to express the type of choices that a God of infinite intelligence is confronted with. Or is this even possible? As Feelinahole said,quote:
All the analogies and all the ideas and all the debates point to one thing, God is God and we are we. All the speculation will not change the fact that God knows more than we do, sees more than we do and makes decisions based on the fact that he is a different being than we are and sees things from a different position than we do. We cannot make decisions as God would because we can never truly put ourselves in a "god" position. We will never know truly what it is like to be God and encompass all decisions at once. So it comes back to what has been said before: is Jesus's sacrifice worth trusting?
Magneton
"Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them." Einstein
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/1/2004 6:32 AM (GMT -6) | | What about a hostage situation?
From the film Speed.
"Pop quiz! I've got a gun to your friend's head. What do ya do?"
"Shoot the hostage."
I don't think that was God's answer though. What do you think Magneto? Christ could have consumed all the bad guys with fire from heaven while he was on the cross. But he told his disciples that no servant is greater than his master, therefore they could expect that they too would be persecuted as he was. I don't think Jesus was complicit in the hatred of the followers of Christ. There is good and there is evil. Jesus preached about something higher than "hand wringing." | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 3/1/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Wahoo: I don't think that was God's answer though.
Magneton: I agree. The hostage situation doesn't seem like fruitful ground for an analogy. Pity the poor kidnapper or terrorist who presents a ransom note or demands to God. Who could presume to confront the Almighty with an "Either/Or?"
Magneton
"The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us." Paul Valery, 1895 | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 3/1/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Magneton
It seems to me that the central analogy of this thread, "Switching the train tracks," is a lame analogy, or at the very least, has a severe limp. I'll defer to Professor Laika to decide which.
The choice whether or not to switch the tracks is one that presents itself when all other options are exhausted. It's too late to commandeer the train, warn someone, or take other actions. It's down to a single binary option, "Do I or don't I?"
To suggest that God finds himself backed into a corner this way, left with only one horrible choice, is to ignore the infinite intelligence of God and to play into the hands of those who would describe the "hand-wringing God" of open theism. It is to suggest that God finds himself forced to do evil in order to do good.
I'd like to see a new analogy (or surgery to get the other one walking again) to express the type of choices that a God of infinite intelligence is confronted with. Or is this even possible? As Feelinahole said,quote:
All the analogies and all the ideas and all the debates point to one thing, God is God and we are we. All the speculation will not change the fact that God knows more than we do, sees more than we do and makes decisions based on the fact that he is a different being than we are and sees things from a different position than we do. We cannot make decisions as God would because we can never truly put ourselves in a "god" position. We will never know truly what it is like to be God and encompass all decisions at once. So it comes back to what has been said before: is Jesus's sacrifice worth trusting?
Magneton
"Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them." Einstein
Let me limp into a new analogy using Jesus as my crutch. Many argue that the true nature of God is revealed in Jesus and not by the Old Testament stories of God’s wrath. So, I pose the following:
John 2:14-15 (NIV)
In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
Mark 11:13-16 (NIV)
Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it. On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
In the passage, two unusual incidents are related: the cursing of the fig tree and the clearing of the temple. The cursing of the fig tree was an acted-out parable related to the clearing of the temple. The temple was supposed to be a place of worship, but true worship had disappeared. The fig tree showed promise of fruit, but it produced none. Jesus was showing his anger at religious life without substance.
Is it possible and in some regards true that there was some negative ramifications that came about from Jesus’ act of anger. Maybe some children standing by learned to justify acts of angry with their own violent outburst. When a money changers table is turned over in public is it possible that a riot could have erupted. Is it possible that a table could have fallen on an innocent child’s toy train set/toy chariots or the child’s toe, finger or something worse? Maybe some cattle ran away a knocked over an old frail woman; she fell down on a rock and knocked out her last tooth and starved to death. Regardless of the possibilities due to Jesus' act of violence, one thing is true and that is that those merchants owned the goods that Jesus released to the air (birds) and street (animals). I know Jesus was a carpenter but I don’t think those tables and benches he was tossing around belonged to him. Jesus had a boiling point when confronted with the worse of two evils. Now days, you could go to jail if you took the law into your own hands and lashed out like that, but Jesus was justified in doing it for the greater good.
Peace, Mark
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/1/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Magneto: Who could presume to confront the Almighty with an "Either/Or?"
Well, Satan I'm guessing.
But the either/or is just where we end up in our interpretation of God's ruling over the cosmos. | | Back to Top | | |
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ataraxia
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 67
| Posted 3/1/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | In response to objections to my deleting the exchange between Mephi and Shell, I’m reposting the deleted portion. I apologize for any injury. I really thought I was doing the right thing.
Each poster has jurisdiction over their posts. Shell wanted her's deleted. If anybody else wants their post(s) deleted, let me know and I'll delete them.
I'm dizzy.
Here ya go:
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PAGE 37
MEPHI’S POST
Mephi: Shell,
quote:
Absolutely not. I am being very serious here. I see Grace looking into my eyes and seeing me evaluate her life as LESS valuable as I flip that switch. I would literally probably jump on the tracks in front of the train to hold onto my kids if that was really happening.
(This is my emotion talking. I am IN the emotion as I write this. PLEASE understand this.) I would feel that would be best. Your death, I mean. Because, if you were still alive, sitting there beside that lever, sobbing, I would honestly try to hurt you for letting two of YOUR children and MY children die...when they could have been saved. I would call you a stupid coward...and wish death upon you...instead of those 4 children.
That's just my real feelings.
I need to get some composure.
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MEPHI’S POST
Mephi:
Man, I got too into this. I cannot EXPRESS the pain and ANGER I feel right now. If I were to see someone let 10 kids go to their death when they could have prevented it...
God help me.
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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TOM’S POST
Tom: Not easy is it? Nope.
I don't know if it'll affect things, but God would not have the limited emotional attachment to my kids that I have for my kids over and against someone else's kids I don't know. It's a weakness (in a sense, maybe that's the wrong word) of mine that I can only love my kids like I love them and not love everybody's kids the way I love mine. Point is, God doesn't face that. He loves them all equally.
I understand your feelings Shell. It's impossible to imagine myself pulling the lever to save three of my four knowing that meant losing the fourth (assuming there was nothing else I could do). I would of course offer myself. But would that save the three? More likely it would leave the fourth an orphan. Very hard. But (this is just me talking) it's even more impossible for me to imagine doing NOTHING and wathching my three die leaving me the fourth and living with the knowledge that I could have saved three. Either way...either way...we'll be in counseling a very long time and we'll need the loving embrace of a community.
Mephi, I hear ya. Totally hear ya.
Shell, this doesn't mean we're reducing people's value down to pure numbers. If they were PURE numbers and I believed that, I'd walk away and not care what happened. But if a life represents so much, so much potential love and goodness, don't many lives represent much potential love and goodness? Is it objectifying people to recognize this? I don't think so. Of course, there is often times much self-serving in much of our love, but if such evaluating is to be done, God does it perfectly.
I love this discussion board. It's OK to feel pain and anger. Isn't what you both feel proof that nobody's objectifying anybody? We're just feeling our way through this as much as thinking our way through it.
Love,
Tom
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TOM’S POST:
Selah: ok, so, does this prove to ANYONE that the train track analogy just doesn't work? We can't even imagine being God with an ACTUAL train track problem...geez. If I were God and had to do something in that ACTUAL problem...and it was two sets of kids... well, with a breath of my nostrils I'd knock over the train, or just like loosening the chains in prison, I'd untie the kids...
I think Icon is right about this analogy. It doesn't work. AND it is currently causing its own evil...disunity
Tom: I don't think it's disunity. It's emotion and passion and that's OK. Let's have it. Controlled, thoughtfully expressed, emotion.
The analogy doesn't work for Iconoclast and a lot of people. I don't understand that. It works for me. Iconoclast doesn't understand that. We're in deep waters. But I love Iconoclast. As I've been able to spend time with him and hear his heart, it's all love and passion for people. THAT'S keeping this debate from deteriorating. I imagine Shell and Mephi have enough of that as well to look beyond the emotion.
Did I say "It's not easy" already. It's not easy.
In love,
Tom
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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SELAH’S POST
Tom and shell,
I think you're right - in fact, I was in the process of erasing that post when I saw yours. You'll have to excuse me, that was my "saviour complex" trying to eliminate the root of the problem so everyone could feel better. Sorry. Totally my bad.
I think the emotion is good too and wish true love and peace to everyone here. I'm glad we are talking together...through the hard stuff. AMEN
LOVE
selah
please nobody else quote my sad post anymore...it's your analogy, its a catalyst for others thoughts, it's not mine to judge, peace
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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TOM’S POST
SHELL:: The point I would like to make is that IF I were to switch the tracks, the two of my children that I saved would see me DIFFERENTLY. They would know that I have it in me to CHOOSE between my children. How would they ever truly TRUST me completely. I might switch the track in THEIR direction the next time.
Tom: I understand. But one can argue equally that if you do nothing and let the train run over the TWO, the ONE that lives will see you differently as well. That one would know that you don't have it in you to make the best choice in the worst of circumstances, that when faced with conflicted situations you retreat and back down from difficult choices. They'll certianly be happy to be the one that got to live, but...? That might not connect with you right now, shell, but it makes as much sense to me as your argument for not pulling the lever.
Just a thought.
Love, love, love, and more love,
Tom
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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ICONOCLAST’S POST
Meph: (This is my emotion talking. I am IN the emotion as I write this. PLEASE understand this.) I would feel that would be best. Your death, I mean. Because, if you were still alive, sitting there beside that lever, sobbing, I would honestly try to hurt you for letting two of YOUR children and MY children die...when they could have been saved. I would call you a stupid coward...and wish death upon you...instead of those 4 children.
That's just my real feelings.
Iconoclast: Meph, this is a vicious, brutal attack on shell.
I don’t doubt that this is your true feeling but what your words show is that you are acting out of your own knowledge of good and evil. You just savagely judged shell, denigrated her, and condemning her to death because she said that out of love she could not and would not kill her one child to save your two and her two children.
You just condemned her for sinning against the knowledge of good and evil.
Tom: I love this discussion board. It's OK to feel pain and anger. Isn't what you both feel proof that nobody's objectifying anybody?
Iconoclast: Yes, it is OK to feel pain and anger. It is not OK to attack another out of our pain and anger. It is not OK to call someone a “stupid coward” and say that they would “wish death upon [them]”.
This is what objectifying someone looks like.
Meph, I would suggest that you remove that post and find a way to express your feelings without objectifying and attacking shell.
Thanks,
Iconoclast
END OF PAGE 37
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PAGE 38
TOM’S POST
Iconoclast: Yes, it is OK to feel pain and anger. It is not OK to attack another out of our pain and anger. It is not OK to call someone a “stupid coward” and say that they would “wish death upon [them]”.
Tom: Fair enough. What I understood Mephi to be expressing was what he believed he WOULD feel IF the event in question occured, not that he presently wished it upon Shell for not agreeing with him. Mephi's not suggesting that those feelings would be loving or Christlike. I think he knows they would be sinful and destructive. He's being honest about what he imagines his reaction would be. I thought it was blunt too. Maybe we all need to take a break from the thread and let emotions rest a bit.
Shell, I'm sorry for contributing to the pain of the past few posts if I did.
Tom
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MEPHI’S POST (to Iconoclast)
Some things...
Did I say that this was a GOOD THING to do? No.
Did I say that this was the oh-so-holy thing to do? No.
Did I say that I was NOT acting out of the knowledge of good and evil or being judgemental? No.
Did I say that what I felt was appropriate? No.
Did I say it was OK to attack out of hurt and anger? NO.
Did I say that I could, in NO WAY, see Shell's position? No.
Did I say that it was NOT a shame that I would do such a thing? NO.
Tom had me right when he said:quote:
What I understood Mephi to be expressing was what he believed he WOULD feel IF the event in question occured, not that he presently wished it upon Shell for not agreeing with him. Mephi's not suggesting that those feelings would be loving or Christlike. I think he knows they would be sinful and destructive. He's being honest about what he imagines his reaction would be. I thought it was blunt too. Maybe we all need to take a break from the thread and let emotions rest a bit.
What I said was that I was giving vent to the EMOTION that I was in. [Remember the: (This is my emotion talking.) ] I specifically stated that I was IN the emotion as I wrote what I wrote. This was VERY intentional. I placed myself in the situation mentally, and that was the emotion that I felt...and THAT's how I FELT in the midst of that emotion. And I thought that it would be ok to put down how that played out in my head. I thought that, raw though that expression may be, it would be OK to talk in out in this forum.
Perhaps, I should have made a LONGER preface to describe what I was doing. Maybe that would have been more adequate. Hey, I'll go with that. But, I didn't think that people would think that I would try to JUSTIFY my expression as being right or take my thing as a blatent attack on Shell. LEAST OF ALL, shell.
I think Shell's really cool. I've met shell on a few occasions. We actually got a chance to work together in praying for people at the church the last time we had a congregational time of prayer.
So...
If you want to chide me, Iconoclast, for being judgemental while I'm in the emotions of pain, hurt, and anger...cool. I was. If you want to acknowledge my statement as a brutal attack on Shell, cool. It was...from the standpoint of entering into the perspective of my emotional response.
But HOPEFULLY, you have a better understanding that OUTSIDE of that emotional response, I bear neither Shell nor her perspective any ill will. And HOPEFULLY, you'll pray for me to deal with my emotions such that, if I ever AM put in a position like that, I can respond in a much more positive, yet honest way.
Thank you
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MEPHI’S POST
Digression.
It's always been my thing to try to be real with these things...meaning how we feel. Far too often, we can hide the darkness of our own feelings that really need looking at...just be toning down words and not saying what we actually mean. "I would have been really upset" instead of "I really would have wanted to hurt you and cuss you out." What this doesn't do is allow us to be fully honest with ourselves about the DEPTH of our being upset...AND the appropriateness with which we handle that.
In sharing the TRUTH of my emotional experience, I, in effect, OPEN MYSELF UP to be heard, corrected...AND judged. I knew when I wrote what I did that it wasn't godly. I knew that that my emotional response wasn't godly. But I wrote it anyway as a testament to how I really felt and to show people that I'm a fallen human just like everyone else.
Just so you know.
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BJS’S POST
I for one think this is a good thing. I don't think Mephi was making a personal attack on Shell or anyone else. He was expressing the outrage that I too would feel if someone refused to save ten children when he could have.
I would be sorely disappointed if the forum we have here could not accommodate some strong emotion once in a while.
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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SPRINGS’S POST
Shell,
I am sorry that you had such a sad day. I was too was saddened by what I read. My first reaction was shock, my second reaction was empathy for you. I am sorry that you feel that you stood alone under attack. You know that there are many here who hold your theology, your ideas etc. I am sorry that it appears that we have forsaken you in time of need. For myself, I would have liked to come to your defense immediately, but wasn't able to take my emotions captive and respond charitably. I too have spent much time and thought on this today. I do not agree with Meph that we should be real and just express our adverse reactions, be they bad, unholy, attacking, shaming and what not. I believe that it is God's will that we speak the truth in love.
All along we have been talking about ideas. The analogy of the train track was an idea, and the question has always been, "would you or would you not throw the switch." Most of us have answered that in our fashion. No one has asked, "Alright, given that so and so agrees with the idea to throw or not throw what does that make you feel toward them personally, what does that make them want to do to them personally."
This is were Meph went "off track" as it were. This is what he needs to apologize for. For starters.
God bless you Shell
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MEPHI’S POST
This goes out especially to Shell and to everyone else that I have offended here.
I am extremely sorry for hurting people's feelings. Extremely. It was honestly NOT my intent to hurt anyone, disparage anyone's character, or anything like that. I did NOT mean to insult Shell's character or choice. I am truly sorry that my thing DID that. I would never have wanted to take you through an emontional rollercoaster like that, Shell. A thousand times, shell...I am genuinely sorry.
I tried to enter into the IDEA of the analogy and I went too far. I ask your forgiveness, shell and all.
I would ask for you all to pray for me and this emotional response that I have yet to take captive. Thanks.
Sorrowful,
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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QUESTFORTRUTH’S POST
Mephi, Shell, and others. I will be praying for you. It is sad when people cannot accept what others say as their own without judging it or trying to hurt them by it. I believe, when we are in relationship, we can express our feelings to those we love BUT words can wound severely and permanently. I don't see how you can be in such a relationship with cyber folks that you can openly speak your feelings. I know some of you know each other off this sight. To those who are friends outside of this site I think it be wise if you hold your deep hurts and anger to communicating in person or by phone. It might be wise for all of us to remember, especially on a web site, to speak softly and slowly. This is a very fragile and easily wounding machine.
We need to each try not to control others by trying to convince them of our view. It think trying to control or persuade others in a controlling way can lead to hurtful emotions. Satan is happy when people are wounded in such a way.
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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ATARAXIA’S POST
Though I personally see no reason to step in an start erasing posts, in this case if Shell and Mephi would like to see the last page and a half removed (apart from a post or two that have nothing to do with Mephi and Shell) I'm happy to do that.
Shell and Mephi?
ataraxia
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ELECTRA’S POST
Ataraxia,
Good idea. Take it out. Get rid of it. I think shell would agree.
thanks,
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SHELL’S POST: Deleted
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MEPHI’S POST
I'm down for whatever. Whatever's cool with me.
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 3/1/2004 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparkinheart: Is it possible and in some regards true that there was some negative ramifications that came about from Jesus’ act of anger. Maybe some children standing by learned to justify acts of angry with their own violent outburst. When a money changers table is turned over in public is it possible that a riot could have erupted. Is it possible that a table could have fallen on an innocent child’s toy train set/toy chariots or the child’s toe, finger or something worse? …
Magneton: I agree that there may have been unintended consequences of Jesus’ actions that day, perhaps even some that he needed to apologize for later. But I don’t see willful disregard for others, and certainly not a premeditated injury to an individual done to achieve a greater good.
Blessings,
Magneton
“I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.” - Isaac Newton
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/1/2004 1:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello Everyone,
My internet's been down and with this thread you have to run hard and fast to catch up. But I had a reply that I wanted to share, for what it's worth now. It looks like a lot has transpired, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, so to speak, and there has been some healing of hearts that has taken place. I hope so. Above all else, love is what will really make the difference in theology.
I hope you don't mind my posting this anyway (copy and paste here). Who knows. Perhaps it will be an encouragement still. I promise to get caught up here!
Tom, Meph and Shell,
(TOM) ["I love this discussion board. It's OK to feel pain and anger. Isn't what you both feel proof that nobody's objectifying anybody? We're just feeling our way through this as much as thinking our way through it."]
(Jo-Anne) I love the discussion board too. It's personally confirming in my heart what I have embraced in the open view and it challenges me to put this belief into practical terms. This theodicy affects how we live our lives. I realize that we all approach life and this incredible journey that we're on to the Father, in different ways. I appreciate your stepping in here to be "peacemaker" Tom.
Made in the image of God and empowered by His spirit, we abhor evil just as He does. I know that is why we (Shell, Meph, all of us) react so passionately when confronted with scenarios like the train track analogy, especially when it is our children who are on the tracks! I believe that we would do what we had to do, that God would be with us before, during and after, that it is not what God designed or desired - but given the complexity...and the free will that allowed for nightmarish evil... (God would still hate it). The cross was more than physical pain for the Son. The depth of that sacrifice resounds throughout all of history. Humanity and creation were crying out for redemption, for restoration and He provided it.
The bad news is there is a "train track" evil that we must all face (whatever that looks like). The good news is that He has overcome that evil (in principle at the cross) and one day there will be no more analogies to wrestle with.
There are some things we can stand firm on, others that we wrestle with and a lot that we just have to confess ignorance in. He empathizes with our struggle, with the depth and range of emotions we experience over human tragedy - in our lives and the lives of others.
For me, the most important question is how does this affect how I live for Him - how I worship Him day to day - how I serve Him through loving others. Sounds like we're all on the same page as far as agreeing on the importance of love, above all.
I tend to agree with what Iconoclast has been saying in all of this, but I shall read on and chime in now and then.
God bless you all,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/1/2004 2:04 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by Magneton
(Magneton)["To suggest that God finds himself backed into a corner this way, left with only one horrible choice, is to ignore the infinite intelligence of God and to play into the hands of those who would describe the "hand-wringing God" of open theism. It is to suggest that God finds himself forced to do evil in order to do good.}
(JO-ANNE) Magneton, a sincere question for you - How is a God who knows each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility and who can respond accordingly, beautifully, righteously, in time... - how is that God a "hand-wringing God" in your estimation?
I agree with you, all analogies break down at some point, but they are helpful in exploring ideas together. And I agree with Dr Boyd that it is easier to understand evil if it has a face (like Zosia's).
Nice to meet you and God bless,
Jo-Anne (back to reading the post..."catch up")
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/1/2004 2:21 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by sparknheart
(MARK) {"Is it possible and in some regards true that there was some negative ramifications that came about from Jesus’ act of anger. Maybe some children standing by learned to justify acts of angry with their own violent outburst. When a money changers table is turned over in public is it possible that a riot could have erupted. Is it possible that a table could have fallen on an innocent child’s toy train set/toy chariots or the child’s toe, finger or something worse? Maybe some cattle ran away a knocked over an old frail woman; she fell down on a rock and knocked out her last tooth and starved to death. Regardless of the possibilities due to Jesus' act of violence, one thing is true and that is that those merchants owned the goods that Jesus released to the air (birds) and street (animals). I know Jesus was a carpenter but I don’t think those tables and benches he was tossing around belonged to him. Jesus had a boiling point when confronted with the worse of two evils. Now days, you could go to jail if you took the law into your own hands and lashed out like that, but Jesus was justified in doing it for the greater good."]
(Jo-Anne) Mark, I had a problem with what Jesus did in the temple (for a long time). I grew up with anger and so... Anyway, it was a revelation to me when I read the verse that tells us that Jesus sat down and made the whip that He used. Yes it was anger and yes it was righteous - not uncontrolled though. What he did was deliberate and there are always consequences to free will and evil choices - even when we counter them with righteousness and love, but I do believe that Jesus would've been looking out for children (though it's not likely there were small children underfoot. It was controlled and purposeful. By the time He was through, I'm sure they got the message.
I agree with you about Jesus not tolerating evil. This is a perfect example of what a revolt against evil played out in the life of Jesus and He calls us to do the same. It may take different forms (obviously) but it is a revolt none-the-less.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 3/1/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne:quote:
(Magneton)["To suggest that God finds himself backed into a corner this way, left with only one horrible choice, is to ignore the infinite intelligence of God and to play into the hands of those who would describe the "hand-wringing God" of open theism. It is to suggest that God finds himself forced to do evil in order to do good.}
(JO-ANNE) Magneton, a sincere question for you - How is a God who knows each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility and who can respond accordingly, beautifully, righteously, in time... - how is that God a "hand-wringing God" in your estimation?
My only point was that a God who can be forced into a position of having only one option (an option that requires him to do evil in order to achieve the greatest good), would not have infinite intelligence. God as I understand him, can anticipate possibilities and avoid being forced into this situation. Critics have suggested that the open view describes a “hand-wringing God” who can be caught off guard, but they overlook his infinite intelligence and anticipation of possibilities.
Hope this clarifies,
Magneton
All great truths begin as blasphemies. George Bernard Shaw
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