 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Carlie was murdered--Where was God? | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/1/2004 5:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | [quote]Originally posted by Magneton
Jo-Anne:[quote](Magneton)["To suggest that God finds himself backed into a corner this way, left with only one horrible choice, is to ignore the infinite intelligence of God and to play into the hands of those who would describe the "hand-wringing God" of open theism. It is to suggest that God finds himself forced to do evil in order to do good.}
(JO-ANNE) Magneton, a sincere question for you - How is a God who knows each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility and who can respond accordingly, beautifully, righteously, in time... - how is that God a "hand-wringing God" in your estimation?
(Magneton) {"My only point was that a God who can be forced into a position of having only one option (an option that requires him to do evil in order to achieve the greatest good), would not have infinite intelligence. God as I understand him, can anticipate possibilities and avoid being forced into this situation. Critics have suggested that the open view describes a “hand-wringing God” who is unable to accomplish his will, but they overlook his infinite intelligence and anticipation of possibilities.
Hope this clarifies"}
(JO-ANNE) Thanks Magneton. Now I understand what you were saying. I've heard of the "hand-wringing God" phrase and it is unfortunate and IMHO it is based in misunderstanding. I would like to agree with you, wholeheartedly that God is never "forced" into a position of having only one option, though I do believe it may appear that way to us at times. He is the God of the possible, the God of all possibilities and the God of the (seemingly) impossible! I believe the critics are misguided in refering to the God of the Open View as a "hand-wringing" God. I think the only place I've heard of that being used is in Ware's criticism of the Open View (though it may well be a direct hit that is becoming more popular when criticising the Open View).
Think about what "hand-wringing" implies and decide for yourself when considering the Open View, if you really believe that this view portrays God that way. In the two years that I've been exploring it (and I realize that isn't very long), I've seen nothing to indicate that. Rather, I've grown in my understanding of the Father as creatively sovereign, unchanging in character but ever changeable in His response to humanity (to speak nothing about His response in the heavenlies and the whole of creation). He is the Lord of the Cosmos, ready for each and every possibility "as if it were the only possibility." How much more glorious could He be than that? Actually, far more than we can comprehend! The best thing of all that I have gleaned from this view is the Father's heart in relation to suffering and the realization that I have a very real part to play in this drama with Him. He has called me to revolt against evil (with love) and to pray as I've never prayed before. This view of Him has dramatically changed my life.
Have you read "God of the Possible"? That is where my journey began. I would highly recommend it. At first glance, I had many concerns but they have been more than adequately answered. I would like to add that I appreciate Dr Boyd and the humility and graciousness in which he presents the Open View for consideration. I have not found the same graciousness in criticisms of the Open View.
Something to think about. God Bless.
Jo-Anne
(MAGNETON) All great truths begin as blasphemies. George Bernard Shaw
(Jo-Anne) Very interesting quote!
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/2/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 3/2/2004 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | F.Y.I.,
this thread is not about a "gender role" debate.
It's about whether God is "complicit" in evil.
Peace & blessings,
<><
BBC Canada wrote:
quote:
.....this, it seems to me to be a problem of the current "gender role" debate.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/2/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | | I haven't done any etymology but when I hear the word "complicit" it makes me think of "accomplice," like, "He is an accomplice in the murder." That's what I've been thinkin at least. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 3/2/2004 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
F.Y.I.,
this thread is not about a "gender role" debate.
It's about whether God is "complicit" in evil.
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I looked up complicity once again in Dictionary.com and also in thesauras.com and can not find one synonym in any of it that I would want to attribute to the Father's character. This word has been tossed in and out of this thread and I think the challenge should be for someone to come up with another word, because I don't see how this applies to the Father at all. What do you think?
Jo-Anne
To me "complicit" means involved, is God involved in evil? I would say that if I was in a fight with someone that I would be somewhat involved with that person. If two countries are at war with each other then I would tend to think they are involved with each other. The United States is involved in Iraq. God is at war with evil.
Peace, Mark | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 3/2/2004 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j The word means an allegiance of sorts as far as I can tell, not an opposing force. God opposes evil in any form. Evil in any degree is evil and He revolts against it. We are called to sabotage the activities of the enemy (on all fronts).
Hello fellow saboteur,
in·volve [in vólv]
v
1. vt contain something: to contain or include as a necessary element of something
2. vt concern somebody: to be a matter that concerns or affects somebody
3. vt cause somebody to participate: to make somebody part of, or make somebody take part in, an event or ongoing process
4. vt implicate somebody: to connect a person with something, especially something disreputable
5. vt engross somebody: to take up somebody’s whole attention
6. vt complicate something: to make something complicated or difficult to follow (often passive)
The United States is involved in Iraq. I don't think you would say in allegiance with Iraq.
Peace, Mark | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/2/2004 9:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
[quote]Originally posted by moon_river_j The word means an allegiance of sorts as far as I can tell, not an opposing force. God opposes evil in any form. Evil in any degree is evil and He revolts against it. We are called to sabotage the activities of the enemy (on all fronts).
(MARK) {"Hello fellow saboteur,
in·volve [in vólv]
v
1. vt contain something: to contain or include as a necessary element of something
2. vt concern somebody: to be a matter that concerns or affects somebody
3. vt cause somebody to participate: to make somebody part of, or make somebody take part in, an event or ongoing process
4. vt implicate somebody: to connect a person with something, especially something disreputable
5. vt engross somebody: to take up somebody’s whole attention
6. vt complicate something: to make something complicated or difficult to follow (often passive)
The United States is involved in Iraq. I don't think you would say in allegiance with Iraq."}
(Jo-Anne) You hit the nail on the head. Involved is a better word, much different meaning than complicity. God is definitely involved in His creation. I like that! Maybe the question should not be whether or not God is complicit but how is He involved with his creation in regard to evil (lesser, greater, whatever..."evil by any other name..."
Your thoughts?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/2/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparknheartquote:
The United States is involved in Iraq. I don't think you would say in allegiance with Iraq.
Peace, Mark
YES! That's a great replacement word for complict. God is INVOLVED with us in EVERYTHING. God is involved with evil (not complicit) in as much as God is working the good out of each situation of our lives. I wonder what Tom, Mephi, Brandon, and Brett would think of this word to replace complicit? | | Back to Top | | |
|
Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/3/2004 6:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil•er or evil•ler; evil•est or evil•lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY
- evil adverb, archaic
- evil•ly /-(l)E/ adverb
- evil•ness /-n&s/ noun
Main Entry: ho•ly
Pronunciation: 'hO-lE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ho•li•er; -est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hAlig; akin to Old English hAl whole -- more at WHOLE
1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : DIVINE <for the Lord our God is holy -- Psalms 99:9 (Authorized Version)>
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple> <holy prophets>
4 a : having a divine quality <holy love> b : venerated as or as if sacred <holy scripture> <a holy relic>
5 -- used as an intensive <this is a holy mess> <he was a holy terror when he drank -- Thomas Wolfe> -- often used in combination as a mild oath <holy smoke>
- ho•li•ly /-l&-lE/ adverb
The Bible ascribes “holiness” to God and so does the dictionary. However, the Bible does not ascribe biblical “evil” to God. I would submit that the dictionary definition of “evil” is not the same as the biblical definition of “evil”. If it was then we could not have a logical discussion without throwing out either the Bible or the dictionary because the two definitions are polarized against each other.
In the parameters of this discussion however, I would say that God is holy. I have to go now… More later.
"holy" is a higher definition that exists above the physical and above the human. Evil is not neccesarily so... God can do anything He wants, even destroy His own creation and it would be holy and not evil. | | Back to Top | | |
|
terry bentley
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 3/28/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | | Carlie died because she believed in death as does the whole human race. GOD IS ONLY GOOD, GOOD IS GOD. Is all the human race has to do is this believe in only GOOD, believe in only good you believe in god and gods words are only only GOOD. love, life, you can go on and and on. Terry. puretruthgod.tripod.com | | Back to Top | | |
|
Soul Purpose
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 12/18/2005 1:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Surprised to see this thread resurrected; I thought it was laid to rest--but then I guess the problem of evil will not be laid to rest until we are--at rest at last in His presence.
Merry Christmas all ...
God bless each of you,
Jo-Anne | | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/21/2005 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I really didn't recall that everyone on this thread agreed with the idea of God being complicit in evil (or any qualified variation thereof). To the contrary, it seemed to me that everyone except Tom, Meph, and Brandon were absolutely opposed to Meph's view. Just because someone drops out of a discussion does not mean they have all of the sudden gone over to the dark side. 
Anyway, the posts are all there if anyone wants to see if everyone agreed on this issue. If it appeared to anyone that I agreed with Meph & Co. on this issue, then either I failed to express myself sufficiently (which is entirely possible), or I just didn't know how to express my view properly at the time, which is still not a concession to anything except lack of personal clarity and/or eloquence.
In any case, I am very glad to see that Carlie's murderer will not be able to rape and murder any more children.
Blessings,
John
Post Edited (JEE) : 12/21/2005 12:58:41 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/21/2005 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John-
For the record, I didn't (and don't) agree that God is "complicit in evil." To me those words can only mean that God is "doing" evil, is guilty OF evil. As soon as you qualify it and say, "Well, God sometimes sacrifices the Rook for the Queen," or "Sometime the only options all suck and God goes with the least worst option, the one that minimizes evil the most," then I find that "complicit" is clearly not the word to use. Being specific, courts of law take "complicit in" to imply guilt where some criminal act is considered. Mephi doesn't believe that God is guilty of evil, so I don't know why he sticks with a pejorative word to describe God's making the most out of conflicted situations. It's a good thing that God does. "Complicit" isn't the right word. Just say God makes the most out of conflicted situations, or God takes the best option he faces given the realities he has to deal with. You don't have to qualify it a hundred times over like you do when you say, "God is complicit in evil."
Tom
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 12/22/2005 1:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Words contain and convey meaning, and have to mean something, so simply asking for "another friggin' word" doesn't help anything, unless one is truly giving up the concept underlying the word.
If we accuse God of "orchestrating evil instances and/or structures into coming to be," it is hard to imagine a better way to express this idea than "God is complicit in evil."
I think this whole issue resolves down into whether or not God created moral evil. Personally, I don't think it's helpful to say that moral evil is a created thing at all. It is simply an abuse/perversion of a good thing--free will, which is necessary for good or evil to be possible. Of course, if we assume an Augustinian view of God, creation, and sin, the ultimate conclusion can be none other than that God did indeed create moral evil, and is Himself the Original Sinner.
If on the other hand we carefully distinguish between the moral or spiritual realm and the physical realm, then the question of God creating/orchestrating evil is not a problem, for moral actions are not created by anyone other than the chooser (moral agent).
Post Edited (JEE) : 12/23/2005 12:23:49 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 12/22/2005 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph: Give me another friggin' word.
Tom: Does there have to be 'a' word? Can't we just describe it?
VFG: How about oogledyboogledyboopablah? (Ok, bad joke... but hey, invent a new word for this definition then. Go ahead! Don't philosophers make up new words all the time? Go for it! You trailblazers you!)
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]:
Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives." | | Back to Top | | |
| 777 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:53 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|