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kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 12/1/2009 11:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Scripture teaches us not to test God. However, is it possible or advisable to blackmail the powers of evil. Here is a contrived example to illustrate what I mean: imagine a person who is sensitive to the temptings of the powers of evil. Now, this person resolves to contribute a substantial amount to her church offering every time she believes she is being tempted. For the sake of argument, lets assume that money donated to her church is believed by the powers of evil to advance the kingdom of God, and this is so because monies donated to the church really do advance the kingdom of God. The powers of evil are thus seemingly caught in a dilemma. They can continue to tempt said person, in which case the kingdom of God advances, or they have to stop tempting said person, in which case the kingdom of God also advances. Either way, the kingdom of God advances. Now, the powers of evil may try to evade the dilemma by trying to guilt said person, they might say to her: "Why don't you contribute to the church without making it contingent on being tempted?" However, this seems self-defeating because if they convince her to do this, then the kingdom of God advances. She could also sense this strategy and contribute to the church to punish the powers of evil but the kingdom of God also advances. So, it seems the forces of evil's only recourse is to choose the lesser of two evils (goods). What make you of this?
Be without fear in the face of your enemies
Be brave and upright
Speak the truth
Safeguard the helpless
That is your oath
---Godfrey of Ibelin | | Back to Top | | |
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kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 12/2/2009 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | You could simply replace "tempt" with "spiritually attack" however that might be conceived. I guess I hadn't really thought about the machinations of temptation. My views may stem from a conflation of temptation and tribulation "lead us not into temptation/test/tribulation" but "deliver us from evil/the evil one." My off-the-cuff reading of the James passage says that God doesn't test but that we are "drawn away" or "allured" by our own desire. However, I'm not sure why the forces of evil cannot be involved in the drawing away and the alluring. Also, my example doesn't hinge on it being true all the time that we are directly tempted by the forces of evil. Be that as it may, lets change the example. Let's say the deal involves volunteering at the church. Let's assume the volunteering advances good. This at least prevents the strategy of spiritually attacking the church to spend unwisely in the offering example.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies Be brave and upright
Speak the truth
Safeguard the helpless
That is your oath
---Godfrey of Ibelin | | Back to Top | | |
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kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 12/2/2009 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | I bring up this case because I know a guy who claims to have practiced this strategy. In his case, he wanted to keep his car from breaking down. So he resolved that every time his car broke down he would donate the amount it took to fix his car to his church. He said that when he resolved to do this, his car never broke down again. I asked him why he would make donating to the church contingent on having his car break down. I didn't get a good response. So, I wondered if there is ever a case where a strategy like this can be used to defeat the powers of evil. It is sort of like putting the evil powers in a bind. I liken the case to putting God in a bind. Moses seemed to have noticed when God was in a bind and manipulated the situation accordingly when he pleaded with God not to destroy Israel otherwise God's reputation would have been diminished, which is perhaps why scripture says not to test God. Of course, Moses did not manipulate the situation that caused the bind. Could we imagine a situation where we could put the evil powers in a bind? My case seems to falter on the problem of not making doing good contingent on evil forces, but once one starts down that path, it seems the forces of evil are especially defeated, because though the person may opt out of actually resolving to make the deal, in so doing they commit themselves to serving at the church or whatever. So, the forces of evil would not like one to even start thinking about putting them in a bind because the only outcome is the resolve to do good, with or without the deal actually being made.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies
Be brave and upright
Speak the truth
Safeguard the helpless
That is your oath
---Godfrey of Ibelin | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel M
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 12/3/2009 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom,
Tom: Then they tempt the church officials to spend the money on stupid stuff, like a big glass cathedral
Daniel: I'm still working my way through school, and I was a part of a Church that had a decently sized population, I'd say around 1,000 members. I asked the pastor if they did any sort of educational support for students. He tells me "nope, just not enough money in the budget to be helping all of the college kids." A few weeks later, the church spends close to 500,000 on a new set of projectors, sound systems, video equipment, wood paneling for the stage, ambiance projectors, etc. Now, I understand that a church needs some of these things, but this church already had 2 perfectly fine projectors, a really great sound system, and a video system that was better then the stuff at my school. But the newer equipment allowed them to "create a more dynamic environment for seekers to be exposed to the word of God."
I understand that a number of generations of college students had to work, take out insane loans, and work hard to pay off that debt. But I just don't get why the church would spend money on aesthetics rather than providing a much needed relief for its members. 500,000 could have went to help a lot of people.
Maybe, I'm just caught up in John Howard Yoders concept of an eschatological Jubilee fulfilled in the Church, where debt is abolished in all forms. But I can't help but think that the church (generally) could be doing A LOT to help people, especially in a recession. (I know there are Churches out there that ARE helping A LOT, but unfortunately, I have yet to encounter such a place). | | Back to Top | | |
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kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 12/3/2009 8:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Is it a clear cut case that this guy's vow is ITSELF what the demons are looking for? Let's say this guy reasons as follows: (1) Spiritual warfare exists. (2) warfare may involves strategy to defeat the opponant (3) I want to defeat the powers of evil (4) the "put evil forces in a bind" is a strategy to defeat the forces of evil (5) therefore, I will employ the "put evil forces in a bind" strategy. This is NOT like Pascal's wager were the decision seems totally based on game-theory and so would be the type of decision that would warrant our displeasure. William James criticised Pascal's wager for just this reason (he also pointed out why Pascal's wager failed--in so many words, there is a chance--even if infintely small-- that God may be Nietzschean and that he rewards NOT following the masses etc). As I see it the displeasure comes from withholding some good (that you ought to do anyway) in order to put the forces of evil in a bind. Let's add a premise: there is always SOMETHING extra that someone could resolve to do. That seems defensible: there is always one more penny you could drop in the Salvation Army bucket, there is always one more kid you could mentor, there is aways one more twenty buck bill you could tithe etc. Now, if the vow depends on withholding this something extra, then it doesn't seem as egregious. Now, you could say: "yes, but why don't you just do this extra thing without making it contingent on putting the forces of evil in a bind." I could, but I don't. It takes the "put evil forces in a bind" strategy to motivate the extra resolve. Now, it is true that I can be guilted into doing this extra thing without the forces of evil being forced to act on account of the bind, but then I have the "put evil forces in a bind" strategy to thank.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies
Be brave and upright
Speak the truth
Safeguard the helpless
That is your oath
---Godfrey of Ibelin | | Back to Top | | |
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