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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Is God "complicit" in Fallen, Evil Structures? | Forum Quick Jump
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/4/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | To implicate God in event chains and try and call it "sinful" is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I just don't see how that fits.
I think that the appropriate word for "complicit" should be "mercy". God can act in ways that seem harsh to us but in God's scheme it is always either judgment or mercy. None of it is evil or sinful. He gets involved in sinful structures in order to demonstrate His MERCY.
Love,
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/6/2004 8:48 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by Wahoo
(Wahoo) {"
To implicate God in event chains and try and call it "sinful" is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I just don't see how that fits.
I think that the appropriate word for "complicit" should be "mercy". God can act in ways that seem harsh to us but in God's scheme it is always either judgment or mercy. None of it is evil or sinful. He gets involved in sinful structures in order to demonstrate His MERCY."}
(Jo-Anne)
Wahoo, thanks for adding this bit on mercy. We had a conversation about this some time ago and I said that mercy is an attribute of God. Wrath is not an attribute of God. It is rather like a scalpel in the hand of a surgeon, it is an instrument of mercy, designed to bring healing, health, restoration, redemption, wholeness... Is the surgeon complicit because he is using a scalpel, an instrument that has the potential to cause pain, to wound. The key is in how the scalpel is being used, in whose hands it is being placed. Wrath, in the hands of a loving Father, is an instrument of love and mercy. We are, at times, like children. We see the instrument and are struck with fear and confusion. We don't understand that it is being used lovingly to help. When the disciples saw Jesus walking to them on the water they were terrified. They thought He was a ghost. It was their understanding that was the problem.
I agree, take the word complicit and scratch it completely. Substitute it with involvement, with responsibility, with mercy. Wherever we see the Father at work, we can know that it is love at work. It may not look that way at first glance. We are seeing through our human experience which is faulty at best. But I know He is able to help us see with new eyes. I know this is what this thread is all about. We're trying so hard to see and understand the Father through our nearsighted lenses. I believe we were meant to look at the Father through the Son and when we do, the picture will become much clearer.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/11/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm…just noticed something…
From Christus Victor Website
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=550
All words Greg Boyd's. All bolded emphases mine.
Genesis 45:5; 50:20
Joseph said to his brothers, “...now do not be distressed, or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life,” (cf. v. 7). Joseph later says, “Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good, in order to preserve a numerous people...”
Compatiblists often argue that these texts illustrate that God ordains evil actions for greater good. While different interpretations are possible, I am largely in agreement with compatibilists on this point. The passage seems to indicate that God intentionally orchestrated the evil intentions of the brothers in order to get Joseph into Egypt.
Does this support the compatibilists claim that all actions fit into God’s eternal sovereign plan? I do not believe so. Consider three points. First, though he probably could have achieved his objectives in a variety of ways, the biblical narrative leads us to believe that a good deal of God’s plan for world history hinged on getting Joseph and his brothers to Egypt at this time. In these extraordinary times it should not surprise us to find God involved in extraordinary ways. This text should not be taken as a proof text of how God usually, let alone always, operates.
Second, if we chose to take this episode as evidence of how God always operates, we must accept the consequence that this passage always minimizes the responsibility of human agents. For this is the conclusion Joseph himself draws from his observation that God was using his brothers to send him to Egypt. “Do not be distressed, or angry with yourselves,” he tells them, “for God sent me...”
If this is in fact how God always operates—if God is involved in each kidnapping and murder the way he was involved in the activity of Joseph brothers—we must be willing to console every murderer and kidnapper with Joseph’s words: “Do not be distressed, or angry with yourself...for God kidnapped and murdered your victim.” We can’t universalize the mode of God’s operation in this passage without also universalizing its implication for human responsibility.
Third, it is significant that the passage does not suggest that God had orchestrated the brothers’ activity before creation or even before the brothers developed their characters. The text only suggests that at some point in the course of God’s interaction with humans, God decided that it fit his sovereign purpose to steer the brothers intentions in the manner we read in Genesis.
Hence, while I agree with compatibilists that this text shows that God may decide to orchestrate evil actions according to his sovereign will, I deny that this passage supports the conclusion that all evil actions occur in accordance with God’s eternal, sovereign will.
In no way complicit, yes?
Thoughts?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/11/2004 5:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Allow me to make my own commentary on this...
Doc writes:
quote:
Second, if we chose to take this episode as evidence of how God always operates, we must accept the consequence that this passage always minimizes the responsibility of human agents. For this is the conclusion Joseph himself draws from his observation that God was using his brothers to send him to Egypt. “Do not be distressed, or angry with yourselves,” he tells them, “for God sent me...”
If this is in fact how God always operates—if God is involved in each kidnapping and murder the way he was involved in the activity of Joseph brothers—we must be willing to console every murderer and kidnapper with Joseph’s words: “Do not be distressed, or angry with yourself...for God kidnapped and murdered your victim.” We can’t universalize the mode of God’s operation in this passage without also universalizing its implication for human responsibility.
Two implications to highlight:
1) Doc basically says here that to the extent that God orchestrates stuff like this, human responsibility is lessened. But, uh, then WHERE does responsibility (or culpability) then lie when these things occur? Three guesses...and all you really need is one!
2)Notice the embolded part. That whole paragraph ASSUMES that kidnapping and murder can be used by God in the same manner that the Joseph thing happened. Otherwise, it would not make sense. So what does THAT tell you? How about that it CAN be the case the God CAN use kidnapping and murder...just NOT all the time!
Now what.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/11/2004 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | For Laika,
That's for the kicking baby. Mad love, player.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/11/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Nah. Just a bit more...
Let's replace the description of moral culpability...
A person is morally culpable for participation in some activity IF and ONLY IF two parameters are met...
1) The person has the genuine ability to gain sufficient AWARENESS or COGNIZANCE of the context, impacts, and ramifications of their participation
2) It is genuinely within their power to do (or to HAVE DONE) otherwise.
If these two paramaters are NOT met, then a moral culpability is not possible.
Now let's ask the questions.
1) Did God have the genuine ability to gain sufficient AWARENESS or COGNIZANCE of the context, impacts, and ramifications of His orchestration of Joseph's brothers' actions?
2) Could God have genuinely chosen to do otherwise?
If you say YES to both, then there you go.
Something else...
Doc said:
quote:
This text should not be taken as a proof text of how God usually, let alone always, operates.
But this is what NO ONE ever seems to get. You can say this until the cows come home. But the fact remains the same: If God can EVER operate this way, and we can't tell for certain WHEN God may operate this way, then we could NEVER look at a particular instance of evil and say DEFINITIVELY that it's NOT EVEN A POSSIBILITY that God ordained or orchestrated it! You just can't do it. I cannot look at a Carlie situation...with my LITTLE finite mind, given ALL the ideas about butterfly effects and what not...and then have the audacity to say that I can know WITHOUT DOUBT whether or not God ordained that. I don't have the SCOPE to be able to do this. We are fortunate that we got the story of Joseph to show us God doing this AT ALL. But how many times does God do this that we DON'T know about?
Can we GET this?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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johnmd
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/11/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph asks
But how many times does God do this that we DON'T know about?
John says
"God is light and in Him is NO darkness AT ALL."
Johnmd says
"Never"
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/11/2004 10:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
What are you saying about God? How can someone who is all good, all loving, all powerful, who knows all that He decides to know, who can respond to each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility, the creator of the universe, redeemer, wonderful counsellor, everlasting Father, friend, brother, high priest, living water, bread of life, Alpha and Omega, Prince of Peace... ever...in a million years...in your wildest imagination...be complicit, much less culpable?
Does seeing Him that way cause you to love Him more? To love others more? Does it make Him more sovereign in your eyes? Does it make Him a hand-wringing God who has no choice but to use evil beings to accomplish His purposes, thereby making Him an accomplice (complicit) in evil and therefore culpable (which means He would be found guilty as an accomplice in our justice system)? How does this help us to want to be like Him?
Meph, what is your picture of the Father? Do you see Jesus being complicit and culpable? When? Where?
Is this the God who died as an act of war on our behalf? How could you take the sin of the world and die for it, then use it to accomplish your purposes. It was our sin (evil) that He died for. The death was victory over sin and death and hell. Satan uses evil to accomplish His purposes. God is the antithesis of everything that Satan is. He is completely holy. Is holiness complicit in evil? Is holiness culpable? Is love complicit in evil? Is love culpable? Are we trying to explain God in human terms that fall short of anything that describes Him?
Help me. I don't see the Father, the one who pursues us to the ends of the earth with His great love, as "compromising" that love by allowing it to mix with evil to accomplish His purposes. What is that about a little bit of leaven?
It's late and I may be missing something. I hope not. How does seeing the Father this way help you? How does it enable you to love others? How does it win a lost and dying world to Christ? When is even a little evil ok? Is it ok if it is useful to us?
"Who is this King of Glory who pursues me with His love?" (Third Day)
Is He or is He not - love, unconditional, unfailing, uncompromising, untarnished, incomprehensible but not unknowable. Amazing beyond our wildest expectations. Ephesians 3:20
Complicit in evil. Morally culpable. That sounds like a God who hates evil, but then uses it when He a) has no choice b) finds it useful for a greater good c) decides that a little evil is better than a lot of evil None of these make any sense to me.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 3/12/2004 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | GREAT!!!!!
Moon River said (emphasis mine):
quote:
Complicit in evil. Morally culpable. That sounds like a God who hates evil, but then uses it when He a) has no choice b) finds it useful for a greater good c) decides that a little evil is better than a lot of evil.
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!
If you understood what was JUST said here, then you get it.
Answer this for me, Moon.
If God was THAT unwilling to be participatory in sin or evil in ANY way, then why would the infinitely intelligent God create an free-willed existence KNOWING that the emergence of sin would be an inevitability? And why could God INCARNATE Godself into that sin-filled existence??
Remember, all God had to do was NOT CREATE...and sin, evil, death, hell...NONE of it would exist.
Think about it.
I'm willing to say that God LOVES the existence of Creation MORE than God HATES the existence of sin. Otherwise, God wouldn't have created.
aka Sir Mephistopheles, the Eternal
PS: Yeah, I forgot to log Electra off again...
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/12/2004 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Meph
GREAT!!!!!
Moon River said (emphasis mine):
[quote]Complicit in evil. Morally culpable. That sounds like a God who hates evil, but then uses it when He a) has no choice b) finds it useful for a greater good c) decides that a little evil is better than a lot of evil.
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!
If you understood what was JUST said here, then you get it.
Answer this for me, Moon.
(Sir Meph) If God was THAT unwilling to be participatory in sin or evil in ANY way, then why would the infinitely intelligent God create an free-willed existence KNOWING that the emergence of sin would be an inevitability? And why could God INCARNATE Godself into that sin-filled existence??
(Jo-Anne) "the infinitely intelligent God" created that way because of love. "God incarnate" put Himself here because He loved.
He is love. He loved. He loves. Without creating that way, none of this would be possible.
(Sir Meph) Remember, all God had to do was NOT CREATE...and sin, evil, death, hell...NONE of it would exist.
(Jo-Anne) Love can't help but give itself away. That's what love is - expressive action. He cared more about giving us free will, then about "playing it safe" and having no real relationship, no real committment of love. That is what appeals to so many who seek internet relationships I think. There is no risk (or at least that is what they thing), but then there is no relationship either. It is "smoke and mirrors." The Father wanted more than "smoke and mirrors" so He took a risk. Aren't you glad He did? I am.
(Sir Meph) I'm willing to say that God LOVES the existence of Creation MORE than God HATES the existence of sin. Otherwise, God wouldn't have created.
(Jo-Anne) God loves beyond our comprehension. He also hates sin beyond our comprehension.
Thank you for the challenge Meph! Touche!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/12/2004 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
(Sir Meph) I'm willing to say that God LOVES the existence of Creation MORE than God HATES the existence of sin. Otherwise, God wouldn't have created.
(Jo-Anne) God loves beyond our comprehension. He also hates sin beyond our comprehension.
I would definitely agree with your statement, Jo-Anne. Am I right in saying that your statement is not negating mine, but giving a very necessary clarification of God's attitudes towards Creation and sin? Do you agree with what I've said?
********************************
Spark:
quote:
Sir Mephistopheles, You like to play the Devils Advocate, well then help me out. What if God did not create sin, then where did evil/sin come from?
Our dependence on God in which Aquinas called "donum superadditum", helps explain the God shaped vacuum in our hearts. But what explains our draw towards the Prince of Darkness? Even at a young age you can see the “grim smile” on a child’s face as they are drawn towards the forbidden. Is it imaginable that even Eve might have worn that same “grim smile” as she extended her hand out towards the apple? Why did she turn away from God in the paradise of the garden? It’s hard not to be cynical of our culture when we see the popularity of sin and suicide reaching new heights in this generation of youth in America. I ask this out of love as I try to understand, why is there an attraction to darkness and a growing attraction to the Grim Reaper?
I'm hearing you ask two things:
1) If God didn't create sin, where did it come from?
and
2) Why does there seem to be an attraction to things that are typically seen as "things of this evil age", like morbidity (being unhealthy or unwholesome), necrophilia (obsession with death and death stuff), and stuff like that?
Are these the questions that you are asking? Just making sure.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/12/2004 7:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
[quote](Sir Meph) I'm willing to say that God LOVES the existence of Creation MORE than God HATES the existence of sin. Otherwise, God wouldn't have created.
(Jo-Anne) God loves beyond our comprehension. He also hates sin beyond our comprehension.
(Meph) I would definitely agree with your statement, Jo-Anne. Am I right in saying that your statement is not negating mine, but giving a very necessary clarification of God's attitudes towards Creation and sin? Do you agree with what I've said?
(Jo-Anne) You ask tough questions. Challenging. But it's good to be challenged. I don't think I could measure how much God hates sin. I don't think we have any idea. He hates sin, not the sinner. He loved us so much that He was willing to be the "God who risks" so that we could have joy, experience love and abundant life. He knew what the flip side might be, but there was no other way. I can not say that He loved us more than He hated sin, because when He created us, there was no sin. It was pure love and relationship with the triune community. Perfect love. Perfect community. And all because we could choose. I don't believe that the Father regrets having created. Anyone who has deeply loved someone would not regret having loved because they could or would endure the pain of loss. Love is worth it all. Remember, we're only talking about love and hate as we experience it. Think of how we feel about Adolf Hitler or the man who killed Carlie. We would have a hard time separating the sin from the sinner, but God (I love those words in scripture..."BUT GOD") is able to love the sinner completely and hate the sin completely. Amazing. The more I consider it, the more amazed I become.
I love Psalm 8 Who are we that He even considers us, much less loves us completely? Here's a beautiful story (a true one). I think you'll like it.
One of the common objections to The Passion of the Christ movie is that it is too violent. One of the most common questions I‚m receiving asks, „Why was it so bloody?‰ One scene that comes to mind is when Mary is soaking up Jesus‚ blood with a white towel. This scene shows not the vulgarity of blood, but the preciousness of Jesus‚ blood. Here is another true story that helps illustrate the preciousness of Jesus blood:
Several years ago in Oshawa, Ontario, George and Vera Bajenksi‚s lives were changed forever. February 16, 1989. A very normal Thursday morning. The phone rang at 9:15 a.m. „There‚s been an accident...‰ It involved their son Ben.
As they approached the intersection of Adelaide and Simcoe Streets near the high school, they could see the flashing lights of the police cars and ambulance units. Vera noticed a photographer and followed the direction of his camera lens to the largest pool of blood she had ever seen.
All she could say was, „George, Ben went home˜home to be with his Heavenly Father!‰ Her first reaction was to jump out of the car, somehow collect the blood and put it back into her son. „That blood, for me, at that moment, became the most precious thing in the world because it was life. It was life-giving blood and it belonged in my son, my only son, the one I loved so much.‰
The road was dirty and the blood just didn‚t belong there. George noticed that cars were driving right through the intersection˜right through the blood. His heart was smitten. He wanted to cover the blood with his coat and cry, „You will not drive over the blood of my son!‰
Then Vera understood for the first time in her life, one of God‚s greatest and most beautiful truths...why blood? Because it was the strongest language God could have used. It was the most precious thing He could give˜the highest price He could pay.
Through God‚s amazing love we were redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19). May we never treat lightly nor trample underfoot the blood of God‚s Son (Hebrews 10:29).
Source: ˜Victor Knowles, Peace on Earth Ministries, Joplin, MO. George and Vera Bajenski minister with Global Missionary Ministries, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.
********************************
Eternal blessings Mephi,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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