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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/4/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by chance
If we outlaw all abortions then it will take a buttload of police officers to enforce the law and to prosecute those who do commit the crime of murdering babies. We could never actually enforce the outlawing of all abortions.
There are always enforcement problems with laws, but they are even worse when a large portion of the population doesn't accept their legitimacy.
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My solution to this proposed difficulty is this: Anyone who even promotes the murder of the unborn, whether through print or media of any kind, is guilty of promoting murder and with the testimony of two or three witnesses that person will be tried by a judge and executed swiftly, painfully and publicly so that the people will hear and fear and no longer promote the murder of the unborn as God promises will be the result if those criminals are executed swiftly, painfully and publicly (Deut 17:12-13).
My friend, they disagree with your assessment that the unborn at all stages is a human being who is murdered when aborted. And, this would obviously violate the freedom of speech, which is not going to be done away with in our country.
Your solution would never be feasible without a violent seizing of power by a minority that shares your views. And that would be undesirable for many other reasons.
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Now, I want to bring up the legacy of abortion in the world. What the slaughter of millions of innocent baby boys and girls has done is to do nothing less then to destroy our future. We are heading for a horrible existence in this world unless we put an end to abortion soon and reverse the current trend of UNDERPOPULATION that will one day soon bring great and lasting harm to the entire world. If you are unaware of the coming UNDERPOPULATION crisis we have to face and deal with in the future then check out this article and get informed http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/838268/posts
My friend, the lack of fertility in many developed countries does pose many future problems for the world. I don't think low-fertility rates are as serious in the US. But that doesn't mean that making all elective abortions illegal will solve the problem.
The culture of death stems from materialism and selfishness, but changing laws and setting up a death-penalty for questioning the laws will not reverse the culture of death. We must focus more on changing hearts and use wisdom in how we seek to change laws.
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I will do all I can to reverse the population trend that exists today in the USA. I will use my ministry to save over 1000 babies from being slaughtered over the next 10 years. I will have as many children as I possibly can through my wife and any other women who would like to take part in bearing me some children in a way that is mutually beneficial to all. The biggest impact I can have is to help reduce the slaughter of preborn boys and girls in this country and that is what I will devote most of my resources to.
Why don't you let the husbands of other women do their part in helping them bear children?
So long as pro-life activists seek to make all abortions illegal again, it will be very, very hard to make needed regulations and restrictions on the abortion industry to prevent abortions.
It is futile to seek to make illegal elective abortions in the first trimester. I believe it is possible to make elective abortions in the 2nd and 3rd trimester illegal and then there are many more measures that could be adopted to discourage/prevent 1st trimester abortions.
However, the conservative structure of the US's democracy and the determinedness of the political opposition to prevent a pre-Roe-V-Wade situation from prevailing politically makes making 1st trimester abortions illegal again impossible and so it is a waste of our God-given political capital for us to press for it. We can save too many other lives through other venues for political action.
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The great pragmatic effect that the abortion industry (they do it for the money primarily) will be shown to have had when Planned Barrenhood and the abortionists are tried by the court of history is the overwhelmingly obvious fact that they decreased the growth of the world's population so much that the population decreased and harmed the entire world in the long run as a result of their lies and selfishness and the selfishness.
The availability of legal abortions may have reduced the fertility rate, but abortions were happening before they became legal.
I think you're blowing this whole population thing a bit out of proportion. I am an economist and have some familiarity with demographics. Changes in fertility rates do cause problems with the greying of populations and need to support the elderly and sustain Social Security. But there also exists an over-population problem still in many parts of the world, which is caused not by the absence of condoms as some might suggest, but by how for many very poor people having children is the only way they can provide for themselves in the future.
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The answer to the current crisis in this world of abortion on demand is NOT compromise as I am reading about in this forum. The only solution to our downward spiral towards underpopulation is the removal of the option to slaughter babies under legal protection.
My friend, you need to chill.
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In the end we must all realize that God is right and we are wrong. That it is wrong to murder for ANY reason, whether its for a job or career or for some other seemingly justifiable reason.
And we must realize that we are not God. And that God has not set out that the newly-formed zygote is a human-being in either scripture or science.
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I would be remiss if I did not mention the recent testimony on FETAL PAIN that has come about in the court cases concerning the legality of partial-birth abortion/infanticide. That we NOW KNOW that babies feel pain MORE INTENSELY and at an EARLIER AGE then we had imagined previously should be seen as a strong indicator that abortion at any time is wrong and evil.
non-sequitur. If the unborn fetus can feel pain at an earlier stage then that supports the contention that legal personhood should be redefined to before birth, not that abortion at any time is wrong and evil and legal personhood should be set at conception.
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Planned Barrenhood is showing how heartless they are by fighting the informing of women seeking the slaughter of their babies that their babies will very likely be experiencing pain during the procedure. The abortion industry would rather the general public NOT KNOW about the pain the preborn feel http://www.physiciansforlife.ca/fetalpain.html
I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that there should be reform of the regulations governing the abortion industry.
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Despite the facts of fetal pain the poor-choicers will still recommend throwing babies in the trash and having small families all so a girl can have a career at the same time which is a recipe for failure (unless having other people raise your kids counts as successful in your mind). They will recommend murdering for a shot at a career while the entire time scaring people with the thought of overpopulation when in fact its UUNDERPOPULATION that is coming upon us faster and faster every day if we don't make some big changes soon.
Most elective abortions already take place during the first trimester and most later abortions are not elective, they are to save/protect the life of the woman.
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Interested in reading your responses!
I can pray for you and your mental health if you would like.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:05 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW said
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My friend, they disagree with your assessment that the unborn at all stages is a human being who is murdered when aborted. And, this would obviously violate the freedom of speech, which is not going to be done away with in our country.
Your solution would never be feasible without a violent seizing of power by a minority that shares your views. And that would be undesirable for many other reasons.
What are you smokin DLW!? 
This law already exists FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Anyone who states they intend to or even want to assasinate or murder the current president publicly will be prosecuted. The only difference is that the punishment ought to be execution and not jail time or prison which is NOT a Godly way to deal with punishment. Prisons don't work and actually help to increase crime based on the recidivism rate and the fact that prison is a place where driminals can come together and share techniques and tactics and form criminal bonds. Its criminal college. Prisons should not exist. Only capitol punishment, corporal punishment or restitution should be administered by the government.
Also, before holding up the Constitution or the Bill of Rights as THE STANDARD of law, I recommend you check out God's Law first and go with that because its from God and thats Who we follow more than Goerge Washington and evil liberals like Jefferson.
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My friend, the lack of fertility in many developed countries does pose many future problems for the world. I don't think low-fertility rates are as serious in the US. But that doesn't mean that making all elective abortions illegal will solve the problem.
You must agree that its a HUGE part of the solution since they DO SLAUGHTER many babies in many countries. What do you propose is the solution to the coming UNDERPOPULATION crisis?
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The culture of death stems from materialism and selfishness, but changing laws and setting up a death-penalty for questioning the laws will not reverse the culture of death. We must focus more on changing hearts and use wisdom in how we seek to change laws.
I dod NOT say execute those who "question" the law. I said execute those who PROMOTE murder. Same goes for promoting kidnapping or rape and any other capitol crime.
Also, the law is part of helping to change people's hearts. As God inspired Paul to write
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Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Good law helps people to come to Christ. Bad law is destructive and does NOT help people to come to Christ. There is a second death as is evidenced by the first death (execution) for example.
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Why don't you let the husbands of other women do their part in helping them bear children?
We do what we can. We can't make a guy love his girlfriend or wife and baby. God can't even do that. Not having a dad around is NOT a justification to have a baby boy/girl sucked out of his/her mom and slaughtered to be thrown in the trash.
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So long as pro-life activists seek to make all abortions illegal again, it will be very, very hard to make needed regulations and restrictions on the abortion industry to prevent abortions.
This isn't a war that can be won through incrementalism. That is a lesson we have learned over the past 30+ years. You have yet to learn that lesson, but you are young and new to the discussion, so that is to be expected.
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It is futile to seek to make illegal elective abortions in the first trimester.
No it isn't. Hey, DLW, if you think anything is futile, then it will be so. The impossible has happened many times 
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I believe it is possible to make elective abortions in the 2nd and 3rd trimester illegal and then there are many more measures that could be adopted to discourage/prevent 1st trimester abortions.
Well, so do I! But I realize that I am fighting against pro-aborts who will stop at nothing less than abortion through 9 months as the law throughout the entire USA. Thats who I am fighting against.
Also, murder at one month old is just as bad as murder as 6 months. I realize that and hopefully God will bring you to the same realization soon. The facts also tell us that girls suffer from Post-Abortion Syndrome whether they slaughter their baby within the first two months or within the first 6 months. You gotta care about the moms suffering from Post-Abortion Syndrome enough to say we need to make it a crime to slaughter babies within the first couple months of their lives.
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However, the conservative structure of the US's democracy and the determinedness of the political opposition to prevent a pre-Roe-V-Wade situation from prevailing politically makes making 1st trimester abortions illegal again impossible and so it is a waste of our God-given political capital for us to press for it. We can save too many other lives through other venues for political action.
In other words you are saying, "My God is NOT strong enough to bring about the criminalization of all abortions." People said the same thing about slavery in the USA. That is the camp you are siding with DLW. Not very good company wouldn't you say?
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The availability of legal abortions may have reduced the fertility rate, but abortions were happening before they became legal.
How many illegal ones were happening before it became legal? Do you have any idea? A few guys claimed in court that it was over 10,000 illegal abortions a year. Later, they admitte that that amount was MADE UP. The amount was a LOT less than that it turns out.
How many abortions a year do we have now in the USA DLW? We have around 1.5 MILLION LEGAL ABORTIONS. Thats a difference of well over 1.4 million babies slaughtered comparing when it was illegal and since it has been legalized.
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I think you're blowing this whole population thing a bit out of proportion. I am an economist and have some familiarity with demographics. Changes in fertility rates do cause problems with the greying of populations and need to support the elderly and sustain Social Security. But there also exists an over-population problem still in many parts of the world, which is caused not by the absence of condoms as some might suggest, but by how for many very poor people having children is the only way they can provide for themselves in the future.
Thats true for the ENTIRE WORLD! THe future DEPENDS DIRECTLY upon their children. Some countries can cope with less children than other countries.
There is no overpopulation problem ANYWHERE in the world. The VERY best places to live are the places with the HIGHEST POPULATION DENSITY. To demonstrate this fact answer the following questions:
Which is a better place to live? Vienna, Austria or anywhere in the nation of Angola? Or even Angola, Indiana!?
Paris, France or Ethiopia?
New York City or Mongolia?
San Diego or Saskatchewan Canada?
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My friend, you need to chill.
TRANSLATION: You need to compromise and let many babies be slaughtered each day within the first trimester.
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And we must realize that we are not God. And that God has not set out that the newly-formed zygote is a human-being in either scripture or science.
In the Didache or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles we have the teaching that it is wrong to destroy the embryo through abortion. That is the belief of the Primitive Church and we are to uphold it especially since we have so much information about how we are who we are beginning at conception (color of our eyes and hair and millions of other things that make us the unique person we are).
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If the unborn fetus can feel pain at an earlier stage then that supports the contention that legal personhood should be redefined to before birth, not that abortion at any time is wrong and evil and legal personhood should be set at conception.
It clearly gets us closer to outlawing abortion with no exceptions which is the track we are on thanx to the consistent efforts of pro-life activists like myself who are working with and listening to God's direction in this ministry. The momentum is building and there is no stopping us.
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Most elective abortions already take place during the first trimester and most later abortions are not elective, they are to save/protect the life of the woman.
That is completely FALSE! 99% of ALL abortions are done out of pure convenience. There is NO SUCH THING as intentionally murdering a baby boy/girl because it will somehow help the mother to survive. The situation does not exist according to the MANY doctors I have talked with. This fact would be demonstrated most clearly through checking the medical records of those moms who have aborted their babies in the third trimester through partial-birth abortion, but Planned Barrenhood and NARAL and the like don't want to lose that line of reasoning to support the infanticide that is partial-birth abortion.
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I can pray for you and your mental health if you would like.
I am already praying for your enlightenment since you seem to believe that going for compromise, which is what groups like National Right To Life have done over the past 30 years and failed, is the way to reduce the slaughter of the innocent. National Right To Life is a group that hss been given money by the Republican National Committee every year o that they will support only Republican nominees to office despite their positions or voting records. Hear about their giving up moral authority as a result of bowing to political power here www.kgov.com
God bless all who read this.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/5/2004 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This isn't a war that can be won through incrementalism. That is a lesson we have learned over the past 30+ years. You have yet to learn that lesson, but you are young and new to the discussion, so that is to be expected.
I think it is wrong to say that pro-lifers over the past 30 years can be characterized as fighting for incremental changes. They take them when they can get them, but the vast majority are fighting for no abortions at all execpt for incest or rape. quote:
In other words you are saying, "My God is NOT strong enough to bring about the criminalization of all abortions." People said the same thing about slavery in the USA. That is the camp you are siding with DLW. Not very good company wouldn't you say?
No, he saying God has made it up to us. Believers and unbelievers alike are given the choice to do good or evil. If you want to pitch a battle, you will drive people away. You'll catch more flies with honey... quote:
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My friend, you need to chill.
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TRANSLATION: You need to compromise and let many babies be slaughtered each day within the first trimester.
That's a pretty big assumption. You're showing more hate than love. DWL (as I understand him) supports a slower, steadier, and more lasting stategy for saving unborn life. It's hard to take you seriously when you are so mean. Mark 9:40 Just because he looks after these "little ones" differently doesn't mean you should bash him. quote:
In the Didache or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles we have the teaching that it is wrong to destroy the embryo through abortion. That is the belief of the Primitive Church and we are to uphold it especially since we have so much information about how we are who we are beginning at conception (color of our eyes and hair and millions of other things that make us the unique person we are).
Which of the twelve apostles said that? quote:
That is completely FALSE! 99% of ALL abortions are done out of pure convenience. There is NO SUCH THING as intentionally murdering a baby boy/girl because it will somehow help the mother to survive. The situation does not exist according to the MANY doctors I have talked with. This fact would be demonstrated most clearly through checking the medical records of those moms who have aborted their babies in the third trimester through partial-birth abortion, but Planned Barrenhood and NARAL and the like don't want to lose that line of reasoning to support the infanticide that is partial-birth abortion.
Show me some evidence that most third trimester abortions are done when there is little risk to the mother.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/6/2004 9:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks a lot! This is the most frustrating kind of debate because it hits on so many issues and so much is being taken for granted. As to all this death penalty stuff, I'll just give up like Jesus, and condone public execution so long as he who is without sin casts the first stone. The remarkable thing about that story, that most of the people there probably didn't get at the time, was that Jesus was without sin. He was in essence saying, leave the execution up to me! And he did, on the cross. The woman (and man) deserved to die, and so Jesus died in her place. The law convicts us of sin, but Jesus takes the bullet for us. I agree that public, brutal, painful, execution is what society needs. That's what Jesus gave us. Now was Jesus not enough?
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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