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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Spiritual warfare and the nativity | Forum Quick Jump
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/23/2001 2:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | And we're OFF....
trot trot trot trot
I got 5 bucks on Pia that she WON'T bite the bait. Same 5 bucks says someone else will.
Any takers?
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/23/2001 2:43 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm wondering, what do FUTURISTS (viz. those who read the book of Revelation as being about the future [usually last 7 years on earth] have to say about Revelatio 12. What would the "Left Behind Crowd" do with this? Anyone read the books/seen the movie? Just curious.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 12/23/2001 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Doc, GREAT SERMON!!!  pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“They behave strangely but they also look really weird” § Michael Vecchione, scientific expert for National Marine Fisheries Service and the National Museum of Natural History in Washington | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 12/23/2001 5:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Luke 2:13
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Some have pointed out that:
"...these were angels who were called an host, or army, the militia of heaven, the ministers of God."
who
"transferring the occupation of their exalted station to this poor earth, which so seldom resounds with the pure praise of God" [OLSHAUSEN]; to let it be known how this event is regarded in heaven and should be regarded on earth.
and that the peace on earth is brought by the "Prince of Peace."
Sounds like battle to me! Yet it seems strange that "peace on earth" is brought about in an unusal manner, Luke 14:26.
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Which is also couched in along with vs 31
"Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand {men} to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
Sounds like pretty violent imagery to me Matt 5:30.
Brandon
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/23/2001 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Pia,
Great point (the very first statement you made for this thread!). It's a great theological treasure box to add to the nativity scene! Thanks mucho.
POT,
You said, Nothing bad happened when I reached 666; but surely somethign will when I become a member of the 700-club!". I about cried and wetted my pants (a grown man, mind you) when I read that! And then the truth hit and I about, well, did the other thing in my pants! Sheesh!
Okay, I take the bait!
The seven churches weren't all Jewish. The issue of some of them eating meat offered to idols - hey, Jesus would get all over any one of His kid's behind for doing anything offered to idols. It's simply the same issue from Acts 15: don't give way at all to idols, and eating meat offered to them was the big one. Well, that's all I'll say there!
Finally, I have to go double check my pants!
Starkman
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 12/23/2001 12:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey Doc, GREAT SERMON!!! pia
I'd say great reality check! It was a comforting sermon to hear because it brings one back to the reality that Jesus didn't come with all the bells and whistles that an earthly king would normally be born into but rather he was born in a smelly, dirty manger. Joseph was most likely totally nervous and scared to deliver this baby. Mary was most likely not the "beauty" that the store manger scenes portray... It's comforting to paint a picture of what the "real" nativity most likely looked like in the midst of the battlefield we live in.
Doc, thanks for bringing a little reality to the glitter that we generally have been conditioned to see the commercialized Pollyanna nativity scene as looking like.
Merry Christmas to you all! Praise God that it's because of the first Christmas that we have the VICTORY over the enemy!!!
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 12/27/2001 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman said
quote:
Okay, I take the bait!
The seven churches weren't all Jewish.
Can you back this up with any evidence? One of my main reasons for believing that the churches that Christ/John addressed were made up of law keeping Jews is Gal 2:9.
quote:
Galatians 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we [should go] to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
This is exactly what we see when we read the epistles that all of these guys (Paul, James, Peter and John) wrote. Paul addresses his to the Gentiles (or nations) which includes Jews and James, Peter and John address their epistles to the circumcision (Jews).
quote:
The issue of some of them eating meat offered to idols - hey, Jesus would get all over any one of His kid's behind for doing anything offered to idols. It's simply the same issue from Acts 15: don't give way at all to idols, and eating meat offered to them was the big one. Well, that's all I'll say there!
That doesn't hold if we accept what Paul wrote about eating meat sacrificed to idols in his epistles. 1 Cor 8 is the most thorough treatment of this topic that we have from Paul.
quote:
1 Corinthians 8:1-13 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live.] 7 However, [there is] not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat [it] as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
Paul also spoke of this in Rom 14.
quote:
Romans 14:1-3,14-23 Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that [there is] nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of [your] food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things [is] acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things [which make] for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. ALL things indeed [are] pure, but [it is] evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 [It is] good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor [do anything] by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have [it] to yourself before God. Happy [is] he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] from faith; for whatever [is] not from faith is sin.
Paul's teaching on eating meat sacrificed to idols is not the same as what we find in the Book of Revelation.
quote:
Revelation 2:12-16,18-21" And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, ' These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 "I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne [is.] And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas [was] My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 'Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. 18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and [as] for your works, the last [are] more than the first. 20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
Christ's problem with the churches of Pergamos and Thyatira is not that their eating meat sacrificed to idols causes those who do not have knowledge to stumble which is Paul's concern in 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14. Christ's problem with these two churches clearly seems to be that they have eaten meat sacrificed to idols period. I see no evidence that Christ's problem with these churches is the same as Paul's concern for those he addresses in 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 12/28/2001 05:41:30 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/28/2001 3:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Chance,
I had originally said "The seven churches weren't all Jewish. The issue of some of them eating meat offered to idols - hey, Jesus would get all over any one of His kid's behind for doing anything offered to idols. It's simply the same issue from Acts 15: don't give way at all to idols, and eating meat offered to them was the big one.
Chance: Can you back this up with any evidence? One of my main reasons for believing that the churches that Christ/John addressed were made up of law keeping Jews is Gal 2:9.
This is exactly what we see when we read the epistles that all of these guys (Paul, James, Peter and John) wrote. Paul addresses his to the Gentiles (or nations) which includes Jews and James, Peter and John address their epistles to the circumcision (Jews).
Keith: The church at Ephesus, as an example, was not a Jewish church (Ephesians 2:11), though there were many Jews in Ephesus. (A good Bible dictionary or such gives good background on the churches.)
Merely because John ministered to the Jews does not mean that He HAD to do so every single time he ministered (it's possible that Gais, to whom John wrote in III John, wasn't a Jew). And the book of Revelation is not written to Jewish Christians but to Jew and Gentile alike: "blessed is the one who reads..." (1:3); "...Whoever is thirsty, let him come...(22:17) is Jew and Gentile. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ - Gal 3:28.
Chance: That doesn't hold if we accept what Paul wrote about eating meat sacrificed to idols in his epistles. 1 Cor 8 is the most thorough treatment of this topic that we have from Paul.
Paul's teaching on eating meat sacrificed to idols is not the same as what we find in the Book of Revelation.
Christ's problem with the churches of Pergamos and Thyatira is not that their eating meat sacrificed to idols causes those who do not have knowledge to stumble which is Paul's concern in 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14. Christ's problem with these two churches clearly seems to be that they have eaten meat sacrificed to idols period. I see no evidence that Christ's problem with these churches is the same as Paul's concern for those he addresses in 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14.
Keith: It holds exactly BECAUSE of what Paul wrote!
See, I Cor 8 deals with not causing your brother to stumble (confusing him and thus causing a downcasted spirit that is vulnerable to Satan's attacks) by eating meat offered to idols; the brother stumbles because he doesn't yet understand just how free in Christ we are to do so. Better to not eat in front of that brother until he comes to a fuller understanding of freedom in Christ.
Romans 8 deals with the same theme but from a different angle: don't judge and criticize those who eat meat or anything for that matter (BECAUSE we are free). It's neither here nor there; the person stands before God. If you think it's evil, keep that to yourself and to God. If another doesn't, he, too, is to keep that to himself and God.
Rev 2:14 works right into this (it has to, because the topic has been covered in Scripture already; God won't contradict Himself): "...who taught Balak to put a STUMBLING block before the children of Israel, to eath things sacrificed to idols, AND to commit sexual immorality.". Rev 2:20 continues with the same points. The parallel of the stumbling (Balak and Israel) is to the church (not just jews) of Pergamos and Thyatira. It is the stumbling that is caused. To merely eat meat is hardly to stumble; however, to eat it with a conscience that is seared and moving away from faith in Christ BECAUSE THEY HOLD TO FALSE DOCTRINE (the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, for example) is horrendous. The meat isn't the issue, the doctrine held surrounding it is. Paul's commentaries in I Corinthians and Romans supports the freedom we have (Jews and Gentiles) assuming there's no false doctrine wrapped around the eating, or the making of a fellow brother to stumble. We see this even in I John 5:21 "Keep yourselves from idols". Meat wasn't the issue; serving idols was.
Jesus would never put a command on the churches in the book of Revelation to not eat meat at all while having Paul teach quite the opposite to the church in I Corinthians and Romans.
Working it through, we are!
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 12/28/2001 9:03:13 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/28/2001 7:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm with you, Starkman.
Back to the title-track: "Spiritual warfare and the nativity" as it relates to the problem of evil....
This is for Pia.
====================================
(by Paul Evdokimov in Women and the Salvation of the World)
Chap.13, The Theotokos: Archetype of the Feminine.
Sect.1--Faith Crucified: The Source of the Vita Nova (New Life)
...St. John Chrysostom calls the Annunciation the "feast of the Root," in the sense of the absolute beginning that ushers in the New Age. Here anthropology arises from its "Mariological wellspring."
In his Homily, on the same feast, Nicholas Cabasilas summarizes the patristic teaching: "The Incarnation was not only the work of the Father, by His power and by His spirit, but it was also the work of the will and faith of the Virgin. Without the consent of the Immaculate, (He's not saying immaculate conception!) without the agreement of her faith, the plan was an unrealizable as it would have been without the intervention of the three divine persons themselves. It was only after having instructed her and persuaded her that God took her for His Mother and borrowed from her the flesh that she so greatly wished to lend Him. Just as he became incarnate voluntarily, so He wished that His Mother should bear Him freely and with her full consent."
We stand before the impenetrable mystery of One who commands times and events, before the most amazing fact that the One who has no beginning, begins. The entire meaning of Mariological dogma is contained in the event of the birth of God. God has the omnipotence to be born as God, as He has the omnipotence to die in Christ, as God. Any verbal formulation of this mystery distorts it, and here more than anywhere else, apophatic silence must reign. Only the Song of Songs celebrates it, "for love is strong as Death" (Song of Songs 8:6); love is stronger than Death; it is God who lives it, and after Him, those who belong to Him.
The more God "humanizes" Himself and raises man to his level, by making of him His exact image, the more perfectly the immensity of his own concept of man is realized, until we arrive at precisely that place where the human being is a replica of the One Who Is. This is why Christ says, The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized" (Mk 10:39). Everything converges toward the Cross planted on the threshold of the new life. In the words of Nicholas Cabasilas: "So baptism in water forms the man and avails for this alone, but death for Christ clearly has the twofold virtue of supplying that which the water supplies and also that which the water supplies and also that which must be contributed by us."
The Church offers special veneration to martyrs, seeing martyrdom as "Love put into practice" -- and the martyrs: "Wounded by the Bridegroom." It is from the wound of the Virgin ("a sword will pierce through your own soul" [Lk 2:35]) that the feminine archetype is born of the Spirit and blood. The Virgin's ministry as a woman begins at the moment of the Annunciation, but archetypically it is rooted in the Cross. The close parallelism of the three fiats in the Gospel asserts itself in the full breadth of its meaning. The night of Gethsemane resounds with the fiat of Christ: "Let you will, not mine, be done" (Mt 26:39) The fiat of the Virgin already contains the sorrowing Mother standing next to the cross, the Stabat Mater Dolorosa. The tragic struggle of faith in John the Baptist leads him to undergo the trial by fire, and the words of Christ replying to the disciples of St. John (Mt 11:2-6; Lk 7:18-23) confirm his fiat, fulfilled and sealed by his martyrdom. In these three archetypes, the crucified faith prefigures the life-bearing Cross. The confirmation of the fiat is not a mere announcement, but the shining victory over its potential negation, won in the heart itself, and taking its place in the act of the crucified Bridegroom and of those who have been "wounded by the divine Bridegroom."
(pp. 211-213, Women and the Salvation of the World, by Paul Evdokimov, 1994 by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press)
Edited by - potonwheel on 12/29/2001 12:11:54 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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