 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Let's wrestle with "Hell," shall we, baby? | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted Today 12:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | If you look at the "Trinity of Man" and the "Trinity of God" How do they line up with each other? Do they line up with each other? Why? I have some thoughts on this, but I would like some unbiased input before I share with the masses...
MrI. :| | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 11/11/2002 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If you look at the "Trinity of Man" and the "Trinity of God" How do they line up with each other? Do they line up with each other? Why? I have some thoughts on this, but I would like some unbiased input before I share with the masses...
MrI. :|
I had some unbiased input once, but I promptly got rid of it. It turns out that it was completely irrelevent.
Anyway, I would say that there is some insight to be gained from recognizing the distinctions "body", "soul" and "spirit" but these are not truly three different centers of willing and being in the same sense as we (should) mean when we say "Father", "Son" and "Spirit".
So much for the "unbaised", but there's some input nonetheless....
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 11/11/2002 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Handcarved and Mr. I,
If you really, really, really want to get ahold of something worth considering, follow this LINK to THE PERSON IN THE ORTHODOX TRADITION: www.pelagia.org/htm/b23.en.the_person_in_the_orthodox_tradition.04.htm It is by an *old Greek guy* who realy knows his stuff. Very well respected. (Cited in Bioethics discussions too--I just found doing some searching.) His full text begins at: www.pelagia.org/htm/b23.en.the_person_in_the_orthodox_tradition.00.htm
Among the questions that bit of reading raises is: Do we keep "personality" and "person" straight? I wonder.
And as to comparing the Trinity with us (echoed perhaps by Modes) is this by Hierotheos S. Vlachos : "...there is no identity between the uncreated and the created."
But don't let that keep you from checking the LINK out!
Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 11/12/2002 09:58:48 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/2/2002 1:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This [is] the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/12/2002 4:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Handcarved, I am (obviously) very sympathetic to your perspective. But, exegetical issues aside, it still seems there is a theodicy issue with your (and my) view.
A loving person wakes a person up from nightmares another person is having.
Wouldn't an all-loving God simply END the nightmares "dreamers" in hell (or AS hell) are having? What purpose does their endless nightmares serve? Even if (as I have argued) the reprobate are unreal to all who are REAL (viz. in heaven), the dream is REAL to the people who are having it. It torments them. What purpose does this isolated suffering serve?
Either God CAN'T annihilate them (viz. their immortality is inherent) or
God WON'T annihilate them (perhaps because it is just for them to suffer eternally).
Both are used in the defense of the traditional view, but both are problematic.
Only the annihilationist view avoids this theodicy difficulty.
(of course, there is the universalist-purgatorial view of hell -- hi Empiress -- but that one isn't on the table at present).
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
|
hand_carved
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111
| Posted 12/12/2002 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Excellent points to consider. Thank you.
Re: “God CAN'T annihilate them (viz. their immortality is inherent)”
HC: I would probably stick to Traditionalist defense #1, with some minor alterations. I know that you are familiar with C.S. Lewis’ “consumed log” analogy from the Problem of Pain (a theodicy itself):
“…people talk as if the ‘annihilation’ of a soul were intrinsically possible. In all our experience, however, the destruction of one thing means the emergence of something else. Burn a log, and you have gases, heat, and ash. … If a soul can be destroyed, must there not be a state of having been a human soul?”
With regards to this, I really don’t have a problem with the inherent duration of a kind of “soul consciousness.” However, I would not use the phrase “inherent immortality of the soul.” “Inherent immortality” connotes the same state of existence for eternity (that is, the soul never dies). But as the Annihilationists have successfully shown, the soul does indeed face death and destruction. Rather, the remains of a destroyed soul may have an enduring state of consciousness, a consciousness that is – like a dream – an echo of the experience of reality they lived. Thus in my estimation, this post-consciousness may be intrinsically impossible to destroy – like trying to destroy (or change) the past.
Another issue is our understanding of time. String physics has confirmed that there are at least 11 dimensions including our 3 spatial and 1 time dimension. They say there could be more, perhaps even more dimensions of time. It’s interesting to note that the extra dimensions that physics has confirmed are “curled up,” sub-atomic dimensions…smaller dimensions, though they have not ruled out the possibility of larger dimensions (to my knowledge). Well then, if time for us is a line, time for the dead could be like a pixel of the line while time for those in Christ resurrected could be like a plane or even a cube. We think of time as linear progression (past, present, and future).
It could be that in death (i.e., “Hell”) there is no linear progression of time in that state of post-consciousness. Perhaps it will be an eternal “now” in which extinguishing a progression of time is impossible because there is no progression. One may be able to extinguish someone in the future, but not in the past or the now; it is intrinsically impossible (as I see it), because if one were to be conscious “now” there would have to be a progression of time for them to become unconscious. I’m not saying this is so…just throwing out possibilities.
Doc: “Both are used in the defense of the traditional view, but both are problematic. Only the annihilationist view avoids this theodicy difficulty.”
The problem of the Annihilationists (in my opinion) is that they have a modern materialistic brand of rationality, thinking strictly in terms of our empirically observed reality, not the possibilities of another sort of reality. That, in my opinion, is also the weakness of any who say that an eternal Hell is “unjust.” What we are calling “unjust” is probably not what Hell is at all. And if it is “unjust” in terms of the reality we experience now, we can trust that it will not be “unjust” in the reality to come. Where 2 + 2 = 4 in our reality, it may equal 444,000 in eternity – a plane or cube as opposed to a line. In that sense, it might not be completely inaccurate to have “milk drinkers” paint whatever picture of Hell they see to be “just.” Then as their understanding of God and realistic possibilities increases, so will their understanding of Hell, and that picture will change.
Again, these are just possibilities not necessities. Are they illogical?
"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones. | | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/15/2002 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | [Hand carved: these are just possibilities not necessities. Are they illogical?
Doc: As I see it, they are certainly possibilities. You bring in string physics to explore the possibilities (which, by the way, have not "confirmed" that there are 11 dimensions. They have "postulated" 11 dimensions and show that it has explanatory force. But nothing has been empirically "confirmed"). In Satan and the Problem of Evil I argue along similar lines applying Relativity Theory (which HAS now been empirically confirmed, at least within a range of applications). The Twin thought experiment accomplishes what you’re seeking to accomplish, I think. If you change the medium of relatiionality, you change the reality. "Time" (the experience of sequence) can branch off radically between two (or more) persons if the medium by which they relate changes (as happens when one travels the speed of light, and we’re talking about a physical medium). Death destroys our "natural" physical medium of relationality. Rather, in reality, in the Kingdom, the medium will be God’s love. All who say "yes" share this medium. All who say "no" thereby sever themselves from this medium. Hence there is no shared experience of sequence with those who are in the kingdom – viz. who truly exist, who are "real" as defined by the Creator of all reality. They exist only to themselves, in "a separate reality" (the title of the chapter).
I like the way your tracking Adam. I grant that the view has exegetical advantages over the standard annihilationist view (though the advantages, I think, are rather slight). But in terms of theodicy, the view only has breaks even with annihilationism TO THE EXTENT that you (and/or I) can render plausible the "inherent immortality" of the soul AS A NeCESSARY METAPHYISICAL CONDITION for what God wanted to achieve in creation.
Keep it up!
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2002 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Would you expand, or at least restate this Doc?
quote:
Hence there is no shared experience of sequence with those who are in the kingdom – viz. who truly exist, who are "real" as defined by the Creator of all reality. They exist only to themselves, in "a separate reality"
Thanks.
Fred | | Back to Top | | |
|
hand_carved
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111
| Posted 12/16/2002 7:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you very much for your comments, Doc. It all really came about sort of by accident - I happened to be thinking about Hell when I was thinking about some other stuff, such as dreams and string physics.
When I gave my speech on my theory, I used powerpoint to line up the similarities of the state of being dead (sheol), the second death (Hell), and state of dream consciousness. Check this out (and imagine it is all neatly outline in powerpoint):
Death (Sheol):
* Exists because of sin (the wages of sin is death)
* Inhabitants are the Rephaim, the shadows, the weak ones; they are helpless. The dead are looked upon with contempt.
*Deeds in life affect the experience of being dead in Sheol (e.g., the unrighteous experience unreast in Sheol)
*Type of death affects experience in Sheol (e.g., you don't want to die at the hand of your enemy, or early in life, etc.)
*It is exclusion from fellowship and community because of selfishness (from banishment from Eden and perfect fellowship with God eventually to Sheol where no one can praise the Lord).
The Second Death (Hell):
*Exists because of sin
*Inhabitants are weak and helpless to better their situationl
*Deeds in life determine experience in Hell (degrees of punishment in Hell - the greatly wicked will suffer more than others)
*Type of death (last thing on their mind) for the reprobate is by fire (a "bad death")
*Eternal exclusion from fellowship and community with God and Creation - in a reality composed only of the self.
Sleep:
*It is a reminder of our frailty as humans
*"Inhabitants" of dreaming sleep are weak and helpless
*Deeds in waking life affect dreams and sleep (e.g., if you are stressed out, you are more likely to have nightmares)
*If you are thinking about something when you go to sleep is what you dream about, sometimes.
*Sleep is exclusion from fellowship and community and is essentially self-centered, benefiting only yourself, experiencing a dream reality only you experience, etc.
Here's a real kicker for ya... Activity of the mind during REM dreaming is equal to mind activity when awake - they are "awake" but they are not "awake." Wayne Weiten writes in my psychology textbook: “This pairing of deep sleep with ‘wide awake’ brain waves is a paradox that continues to leave scientists perplexed.”
I think there is a lot more to the reference of death as "sleep" than theologians have really considered. God communicates through dreams a number of times throughout OT and NT. Weiten also writes, “…in Western cultures dreams are largely written off as insignificant, meaningless meanderings of the unconscious. In many non-western cultures, however, dreams are viewed as important sources of information about oneself, about the future, or about the spiritual world. Although no culture confuses dreams with waking reality, many view events in dreams as another type of reality that may be just as important, or perhaps even more important then, events experienced while awake.”
Considering all of this, to say, "Sleep is nothing more than a euphemism for death," really lacks support, in my opinion. What do you think?
Many blessings...
hc
"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 12/17/2002 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi HC,
Your paper was very good. Your ideas are interesting. I have always been interested in dreams. I think they are a way for our brains to sort through all the information we have taken in during the day. Not just in a random sorting fashion, but constructively, which is why people say I'll sleep on it, and then wake up saying, Eureka.
I agree that dreams can tell us a lot about ourselves. I remember that last dream I have upon waking, and ususally spend a few minutes exploring them before I rise. There are times when I have completely novel thoughts or ideas in my dreams. In those instances I don't think it is something I have seen or heard, and sometimes I don't even think it is something that I have created. I think they provide a great medium for God to test our hearts.
I have become skilled in "waking up" in my dreams. I can take control of them. I can manipulate scenes, colors, and acitivities. There have been times when I have been about to do something constructive while at the same time becoming aware of the fact that I am dreaming and I think, oh forget it, it will all be gone when I wake up.
I think a quote Fred put up earlier speaks to this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29 "The soul without the body can do nothing, whether good or evil. The visions which some see concerning those things that are yonder are shown to them by God as a dispensation for their profit. Just as the lyre remains useless and silent if there is no one to play, so the soul and body, when they are separated, can do nothing." St. Athanasius the Great.
If we were dreaming, or existing without a body, I think there would come a time when we would realize our impotence. If I can, in just a few decades, come to the realization that I cannot impact reality from a dream state, I think the average Joe would figure it out before eternity was too far gone.
Springs
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic." | | Back to Top | | |
|
shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 12/17/2002 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I agree that dreams can tell us a lot about ourselves. I remember that last dream I have upon waking, and ususally spend a few minutes exploring them before I rise.
I hate to hear this...my dreams are so bizarre that I'm afraid to even wonder what they mean about me...like the dream I had about my former pastor hitting a demon possessed woman over the head with a shoe????
Edited by - shell on 12/17/2002 11:25:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
hand_carved
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111
| Posted 12/18/2002 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
Thanks for your comments on my paper and taking the time to read it. Lucid dreaming is VERRRRY cool. It's been a while since I've really done it, but yeah, very cool.
Yeah, this is another facet of the theory that is like a branch that I "trimmed" of the body of my paper for the purpose of space, but I think that it can really fit quite well with the theory. I think one of the more lucrative contributions of the theory is the diversity of possibilities that exist.
I agree that we work through things in dreams. I read somewhere that Mendeleev actually dreamed the Periodic table of elements. But the things we work through in our dreams are usually things we are thinking about (such as working on the periodic table). Also, the Freudian/Jungian theory that the dreams are a communication to us from the subconscious could also come into play. I'm really interested in studying theological anthropology (i.e., "What exactly is the soul, spirit, body, mind?"). I'm finding startling connections between the soul/spirit and the conscious (perhaps particularly the subconscious). The fact that God speaks to people so many times in their dreams seems to indicate a connection between the person and the spiritual world through the subconscious/conscious. Anyway, with the possibility of GOd communicating/manipulating dreams, it is possible that he can alter the "reality of unreality" however is just.
quote:
If we were dreaming, or existing without a body, I think there would come a time when we would realize our impotence. If I can, in just a few decades, come to the realization that I cannot impact reality from a dream state, I think the average Joe would figure it out before eternity was too far gone.
I think this is possible, which would enhance the attribute of hell as being "privation, exclusion, or banishment to the outer darkness." There are so many possibilities, it just really helps me to think that God can do whatever is just. Anyway, thank you for your comments. I too am fascinated with dreams as, I think, we really should be.
Many blessings...
hc
"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 12/18/2002 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
hate to hear this...my dreams are so bizarre that I'm afraid to even wonder what they mean about me...like the dream I had about my former pastor hitting a demon possessed woman over the head with a shoe????
Did you just sing the song, The devil is under our feet?  I can't do interpretations without more information.
quote:
But the things we work through in our dreams are usually things we are thinking about (such as working on the periodic table).
Well, it might not do anybody any good if God were to illuminate me about string physics.
quote:
The fact that God speaks to people so many times in their dreams seems to indicate a connection between the person and the spiritual world through the subconscious/conscious.
Absolutely. I would think the spiritual connection that operates during the waking hours is much the same. Except perhaps for the detailed visual format that dreams afford. I think it’s a mercy that more of us don’t have visions, or waking dreams, I’ve heard they can be quite disconcerting.
quote:
Anyway, with the possibility of God communicating/manipulating dreams, it is possible that he can alter the "reality of unreality" however is just.
If I were a disembodied soul existing outside of creation without God I don’t think God would need to alter my unreality in any way to make it hell.
Springs
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic." | | Back to Top | | |
|
Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/1/2003 4:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo Meph,
I thought you might enjoy some of the ideas on this thread in light of your latest contributions on hell, so I pulled it up for ya.
Springs
"Your love will kill me." Lyrics by Luc Plamondon for Notre-Dame de Paris, based on The Hunchback of Notre-Dame by Victor Hugo. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/6/2003 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | I have likewise come to the view that neither the traditionalist view or the annihilationist view is "the" view of hell.
In my view, hell or gehenna, is a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Heaven is where God is and Hell is where God ain't. We understand them through analogies but no one analogy is "right". Clearly, there is continuity between how Lewis or Dostoesky portray hell, as there also is continuity with the alcoholic/drunk analogy.
I remember when I was in college and I shared some of what I had learned about hell with some friends of mine. They didn't like it, mostly because they liked the scare-value of the traditional view of hell and how it moved people. But I don't think people who get into Christianity for "fire-insurance" will be very strong in their faith.
So I prefer to hold the ways hell is understood at arms-length and ask for my fellow christians to affirm that hell is where God ain't and focus on other more this-worldly aspects of how I live my faith...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/7/2003 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would you expand, or at least restate this Doc?
quote:
Hence there is no shared experience of sequence with those who are in the kingdom – viz. who truly exist, who are "real" as defined by the Creator of all reality. They exist only to themselves, in "a separate reality"
Thanks.
Fred
| | Back to Top | | |
| 41 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:19 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|