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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > When Bad Things Happen To Good People | Forum Quick Jump
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/19/2002 12:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | An excerpt from a newspaper article about Rabbi Harold Kushner:
"In the end, Kushner feels that the most powerful critique of the book("When Bad Things...") came from a Christian sensibility- from the celebrated English author Karen Armstrong, a professor of religion and a former nun.
"She said it was a lovely, comforting book," Kushner sighs, "but that the mysterium tremendum , the awesome power of God, the frightening dimension of God, is missing- the God who is like high-voltage wires with a tremendous capacity to injure people, not out of malice but simply because of His immense power. And she's right. I don't make room for that in my theology. It's in the Bible, and I just don't make room for it."
So I was hoping some of you theology buffs could fill me in on this "mysterium tremendum". I hadn't heard of this phrase before and I find it an interesting aspect of God. Is His power so immense that He inadvertently brings harm to His contingent creation?
A little help!
Rob
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 1/19/2002 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi there! I mention the "Mysterium Tremendum" in a quote by Tozer in an essay I wrote recently dealing with God's holiness, I think it sheds some light on this concept:
quote:
Rudolph Otto explains that the human mind has a sense, which he terms the “numinous” which knows that “there is in this world a vague, incomprehensible Something, the Mysterium Tremendum, the awesome Mystery, surrounding and enfolding the universe. This is an It, an awful Thing, and can never be intellectually conceived, only sensed and felt in the depths of the Human spirit. It remains a permanent religious instinct, a feeling for that unnamed, undiscoverable Presence that ‘runs quicksilverlike through creation’s veins’ and sometimes stirs the mind by confronting it with a supernatural, suprational manifestation of itself. The man thus confronted is brought down and overwhelmed and can only tremble and be silent” (A. Tozer, The Knowledge of The Holy, pp. 104-105).
mysterium tremendum = tremendous mystery
Rabbie Kushner uses this term to justify his idea that God acts capriciously and/or inadvertantly injures people with his pervading power. However, this particular perspective is not in keeping with the majority of Christian theology about God.
The mysterium tremendum refers to the incredible, awesome mystery and holiness of God, far beyond all human comprehension that, when confronted with it, leaves us in awe and fearful silence. This is quite different than a God who makes mistakes or is out control of his own power however.
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/20/2002 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Empiress:
Tozer does have a great way with words! Great quote.
I should point out that it wasn't Kushner who equated mysterium tremendum with God's inadvertent harm to people but a professor (Karen Armstrong) who reviewed his book. He actually posits a limited god, unable to do more than comfort those experiencing evil.
Examples such as the fellow who touched the ark of the covenant (I can't remember his name and I'm too lazy to look it up) or the warnings in scripture about directly observing God's glory...do these seem to fit her definition of mysterium tremendum. Is this a reason (other than for freedom of the will) that God may need some ontological separation from His creation?
blessings
Rob
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 1/20/2002 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Rob,
Yeah, I did misread the quote. I've never read Kushner's book actually...have you?
quote:
Examples such as the fellow who touched the ark of the covenant (I can't remember his name and I'm too lazy to look it up) or the warnings in scripture about directly observing God's glory...do these seem to fit her definition of mysterium tremendum.
I think those would be exactly the types of things Armstrong would cite.
quote:
Is this a reason (other than for freedom of the will) that God may need some ontological separation from His creation?
Oh, I see what you're asking now! I think this is not an unfounded idea since God told Moses (when he asked to see God) that no human could see God's glory and "live." It seems that God's glory and holiness are much to much for humans to withstand. In fact, I believe the reason God seems "hidden" to us is because God does hide his Mysterium Tremendum for our sakes. I never thought of the Ark of the Covenant as being an example of that though! That makes me think! *ponders*
I tend to disagree with Armstong that God is inadvertently injuring people (or certainly not as a rule) since God is in control of how much Divine "weighty power" humans are exposed to (I think most theologians would agree).
Some of the Christian mystics talk about the "God who is hidden"....it seems rather, that God prevents us from experiencing such intense glory exactly because it would kill us by its very nature. This could be, as you suggest, a reason for Divine ontological separation from the creation.
Great question and ideas!
~Empiress
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/20/2002 12:06 PM (GMT -6) | | I have read Kushner's book and very much tracted with his basic sensibilities -- e.g. appreciating the full magnitude of the problem of evil; appreciating the necessity of preserving the good character of God in the face of suffering and even appreciating many Scriptural insights [e.g. his view of the book of Job]. But Kushner unfortunately believes the only way to preserve God's character in the face of the tremendous evil of the world is to assume that God CAN'T do anything about it.
Like most others, Kushner thinks the only options available are a) God WON'T do something about evil because he CHOOSES not to on a case by case basis (what I call the " blueprint worldview"); or b) God CAN'T because of inherent limitations. The option he misses is the middle one: God can't NOW because he chose TO CREATE a certain kind of world. He WILL overcome it eventually, but for reasons we CAN (I believe) to some degree discern, he can't consistently do so now. (My Satan and the Problem of Evil is my attempt to "discern" these reasons).
I'd argue that Bible does depict God as a "mysterium tremendum", but its a mystery of 'glorious love and greatbness', not sheer arbitrary power. If there is a mysterious tremendum that relates to capricious power, its the mystery of the greatness, complexity and arbitrariness of the CREATED ORDER.
Blessings
Doc
ps. nice to have you on board empiress. this is my first chance to interact with you. thanks
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/21/2002 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiress,
I recommend to you the first 6 chapters in Boyd's book, Satan & the Problem of Evil.
Not only will you get the answers to your question, it will be a stimulus to pray much more than you ever have before.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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PhD MP
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 3/23/2002 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Kushner fits within a contemporary Jewish perspective that minimizes the interaction of a personal God in the universe. He fits with many Jews today who, because of the Holocaust, think God is unable or unwilling to intervene with power in his creation.
They echo Eli Wiesel, who laments that God was unable to overcome the evil of the death camps. Today's "theopassionism" (suffering of God theology) has some proponents who argue that the holocaust is evidence that God still suffers with his creation, not untouched by it. (See Paul Fiddes.)
Some process theologians echo this idea as well--that God is still in development, and that a part of that development is suffering with disorder in the universe with which he is connected. (See A.N. Whitehead or Chas. Hartshorne.)
Although all of these views have elements of truth, they are in need of a serious counter-balance from the view of God presented in the biblical Jesus Christ.
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