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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 6/11/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey, I just had an interesting thought...
What if we were to consider possibly changing the title of this area of discussion? That might be useful for focusing what we are really doing. Maybe then we could do it more effectively...(why didn't anyone else think of this?)
My suggestion for this new title is found in the title of this thread.
What are your thoughts?
I couldn't fit this title:
How human beings become profoundly ungrateful, presumptuous and then decide they can (at least theoretically) run the world better than God can. But they don't stop there, they offer suggestions to God (after, perhaps consulting with other exceptionally wise and insightful human beings) on how to improve the structures of creation and then they attribute this presumption to their own credit as if God will surely appreciate the advice (this word "advice" is especially fitting, we are indeed adding a "vice" to our collections). One might even be able to make a career out of such a thing! They will arive in heaven (obviously!!! ) and God might say, "Well done my good and faithful advisor. I had never thought of some of the criticisms you have raised! Too bad you didn't spend half the time invested in speculation on actually obeying the clear commands I have given. That might have done a bit more for the problem of evil than your advice has done. Ah, but hindsight is 20/20!"
PLEASE REFUTE, but limit yourself to use of Scripture and rational arguments that respect the idea that God is God.
Come and get it....
afterthought: All this is predicated on the idea that God really does exist and our respect is due to God as we think through issues like the problem of evil. After all, God is in the room, let's pretend we care. A little fear and trembling might even be in order...Also implicit here is that there is an ethical engagement that is inherent in dealing with evil and injustices. My position is that talking about it without doing something about it eventially becomes ethical culpability. This is sometimes referred to as "whining." It is especially whining because those with the requisite leisure time for such talk are surely not among those who are most entrenched in radical evil. Those in the latter category are unable to speak about it for various reasons, often physically and psychologically, perhaps because they simply didn't survive.
Rather we might need to discuss the biblical, vs the contemporary view of the meaning of life and death....just a hint in a different direction...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 5:05 AM (GMT -6) | | How many times have I had the same thoughs?
Thanks, Modes!
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/11/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes - what are you talking about? Can you be clearer? I don't understand what the problem is. I don't think God is threatened by any person's questions, emotional ramblings, or even problems with God.
Philosophizing and debating are good things - it doesn't mean you disrespect God by postulating different theories and arguments about what you, in your own mind, believe should or should not be the case. | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 6/11/2003 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | SK gets at what I am saying here, that is, he gets the order right and the posture...:
quote:
"Since, therefore, we know the fear of the Lord, we seek to win men" (II Cor. 5:11). To begin instantly or to want first of all to win people may even be profane, in any case worldliness, not Christianity, no more than it is fear of God. No, let your effort first, let it first and foremost, express that you fear God.--This I have aspired to do.
But you, O God, you let me never forget that even if I did not win a single person--if my life (since the "assurance" of the mouth is deceptive) expresses that I fear you, then "All is won!" On the other hand, if I won all people--if my life (since the assurance of the mouth is deceptive) does not express that I fear you, then "All is lost!"
SK Summer of 1851 (Found in the beginning of "For Self-Examination")
Does that help at all RD?
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
Edited by - ModesofThought on 06/11/2003 10:39:16 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hellow Mot,
Aren't you presupposing in your post that the existing orders that we've received are from God and should be above critique?
How does this fit with an OVTheist view? Alternatively, we could say that our received orders reflect a complex combination of factors, some to be held as having passed the test of time and others as perhaps open to revision. One could also say the possibility of innovation, ethical circumstances not experienced in the past require the exegesis of answers that were given to similar situations.
So I still think Confronting the Reality of Evil is a better name. I believe you yourself mentioned that the Christian Church should concern itself with more than soteriology.
It is true that the view point I espouse here is ambiguous regarding the role of the holy spirit, takes a non-teleological view of the historical development of Christian Traditions, while also advocating their importance and essentialness for how we answer the Ecclesiastical Problems of Order.
So are you saying we should view God as being in Control and that any serious consideration of the aspects of the reality of evil in this world and what concrete alternatives might be available to us is trying to usurp God of God's role in moving history?
Come on, that is a rather hard line to take. The Bible doesn't claim to have the infallible answer on how we should structure ourselfs, Paul does give suggestions, but his advice does leave room for ambiguity(such as with his thoughts on whether to eat temple meat. The two ideals of not causing weak Christians to stumble and not clinging to the lies that the temple spirits could harm them spiritually were in conflict regarding the determination of what was right practice. Similarly, the topic of how we use our political capital regarding Abortion has similar tensions. The fact of ambiguity surrounding when human life begins does not imply we should embrace libertarian freedom regarding abortion. However, what is right conduct sometimes can't be and shouldn't be made law. The process of trying to capture the gov't on any given issue endangers the separation of Church and State, and yet for the Church not to bless changes in law would be to not check or provide prophetic witness against the powers that be. And so there is a need to work things out in the here and now regarding what should we render unto cesar and what we should render unto God. The relative importance of Immanence and Transcendence.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:4) | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | ps,
my personal proclivity is to be open about the fallible, disagreement-ladened process through which we rework our answers to various problems of orders than refer to concepts like the most loving or the center, omitting that the concrete manifestations of these ideals themselves need to be worked out in practice.
I think it is clear from the homosexuality link that the Christian Community is not in agreement on what is the most loving thing we should do for homosexuals.
But those disagreements are because we are not all in the center.
I'm not so sure..., which isn't to say that egos do not undermine our ability to work things out, but in my experience words like center, moderate tend to be attempts to manipulate others into embracing a particular approach as the a-political ideal.
The workings of the Holy Spirit are such that, even though conflict is ubiquitous between Christians regarding the specifics of what should be done, we show love to the others and grant them say-so, even when we disagree, and are willing to give authority to the fallible decisions of our existing governance bodies.
Hobbes was opposed to the freedom of religion because he saw the devastation caused by the thirty-year war and inferred that the natural state was a war of all against all. Yet, by giving the Holy Spirit room to renew our hearts and not grasping to power in how we reconsider our received institutions, or habits of thought/action, then we can glorify God by manifesting how our relationship with him has transformed us from the selfish homo-economicus we would be otherwise. Examples of this would be with Barrabus and his decision to sell his land and give the full-value to the church. Others would be how the rich and poor intermingled in the early Church and Priscilla was listed prior to Aquila(a sign that she had more say-so in the Church, I believe). How could Aquila accept that his wife played a more important role in the Church than he did? Miracles, renewed lives, the working of the Holy Spirit, by which received views were questioned and new patterns were worked out(and unfortunately eventually calcified into having the same authority as scripture).
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | I think you should spend more time coming up with actual ideas that matter and less time wondering about what labels should be used...
How about the title, "A Place For Those Who Are So Judgmental As To Think They Know The Motives Of Those Who Are Trying To Do Something Positive In The World." Or "A Place For Those Who Judge Others In Order To Allow Themselves To Feel Like They Are Closer To God." I've got a million of them.
Edited by - honorman on 06/11/2003 12:41:25 PM
Edited by - honorman on 06/11/2003 12:45:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think you guys should spend more time coming up with actual ideas that matter and let time wondering about what labels should be used...
How about the title, "A Place For Those Who Are So Judgmental As To Think They Know The Motives Of Those Who Are Trying To Do Something Positive In The World." Or "A Place For Those Who Judge Others In Order To Allow Themselves To Feel Like They Are Closer To God." I've got a million of them.
Edited by - honorman on 06/11/2003 12:41:25 PM
Well honorman, as always, you are full of constructive suggestions that allow all of us to feel we are closer to God.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, Modes, if you are going to ask people to use scripture and rational arguments, perhaps you should do the same...
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW: Glad I could help, but at least you have another lost soul to wander about with now in your attempt to control and purify the world (btw, what is up with your need of having to quote an entire paragraph and then say nothing about it...is this about issue of control... or laziness?)
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: Glad I could help, but at least you have another lost soul to wander about with now in your attempt to control and purify the world (btw, what is up with your need of having to quote an entire paragraph and then say nothing about it...is this about issue of control... or laziness?)
laziness. Although my remarks were directed at the whole thing.
Advocacy doesn't imply control. It implies a desire to see things take a different path along a certain direction than they currently tend to be trending along.
We will appreciate me accumulating posts of relevancy once the issues I am keeping alive become popular again, like the middle east. Notice how now that we are no longer at war no one else seems to be posting on this subject? Likewise with Debt Relief for Highly Indebted Poor Countries. These sorts of issues can easily resurge in the general public interest again, at which time discussing the possibilities regarding them will not be epitheted as playing God.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW, my "take" is that you are feeding the same tiger that you wrestle with. You both dislike the tradition of "order" that you've inherited from the Frankish RCC, and you also want to replace it with something similarly structured, but...just more of your own liking.
THAT makes you RUSH in your thinking to the applications that seem needing to be addressed. (Like Martha.) And it allows you to say things like: "the view point I espouse here is ambiguous regarding the role of the holy spirit".
A "Church" without the Holy Spirit? Even considering the Church without the Spirit that establishes it? THE SPIRIT IS THE KINGDOM! (The Divine Liturgy BEGINS--is [u/]initiated by: "Blessed be the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and onto ages of ages. THAT initiates and establishes the Church as the clergy and laity--the whole royal priesthood--together call on the Name of the Lord.)
The "Ecclesiastical Problems of Order" is strictly a WESTERN thing. It actually is--I checked it out. Externals are something that about EVERY twig of the Christian "tree" knows about. and addresses pastoraly. (WMBI--Moody Radio corrects this by talking about "external rules" versus an "internal relationship.) The East has a much stronger attentiveness to the Spirit's place. More "charistmatic." And the drawback is less attention to social programs--though not lacking. But the plus-side is that even under severe persecution it grew incredable intellectual and spiritual GIANTS. (Think Russia, and the dessert Fathers.)
You say that your "view" "takes a non-teleological view of the historical development of Christian Traditions". THEN WHAT DOES IT ACCOMPLISH? Something built on sand, that will be irrelevant with the next shifting tide?
Then, "One could also say the possibility of innovation, ethical circumstances not experienced in the past..." LET ME STOP YOU THERE. Rather than assuming that there is something "new under the Sun" we might better go BACK in history. GOD IS CREATOR. Creation by the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit established ALL. What is there that has not come about by the utterance of God's Word? And what is not sustained by same? What is there, anywhere, that is irrelevant to the core logoi of God's "hypo-thesis" for it? (See St. Symeon the New Theologian, and St. Maximus the Confessor.)
quote:
So are you saying we should view God as being in Control and that any serious consideration of the aspects of the reality of evil in this world and what concrete alternatives might be available to us is trying to usurp God of God's role in moving history?
Seems that the whole purpose for the Gardener to say "wait until they grow up" is aimed towards the harvest. Its the growth INSIDE that is the goal.
quote:
I think it is clear from the homosexuality link that the Christian Community is not in agreement on what is the most loving thing we should do for homosexuals. But those disagreements are because we are not all in the center.
You strike me as quasi-sitting in a place where "center" is a concept (even if abstract!) instead of a PERSON. 
CLOSING:
When Matthew says, "Seek first the Kingdom" that Kingdom is the Spirit with us. (God's Person. Not a system-of-order.)
I think that the SK quote is RIGHT ON!!!
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/11/2003 1:03:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW, my "take" is that you are feeding the same tiger that you wrestle with. You both dislike the tradition of "order" that you've inherited from the Frankish RCC, and you also want to replace it with something similarly structured, but...just more of your own liking.
That is not true. I am not trying to restructure things to my liking, but I do have a vision of how things might be different and, in my view, better.
I have an open view of how we should structure our systems of ecclesiastical governance and I think that if we viewed these systems as open then they would be less likely to fall into calicification.
quote:
THAT makes you RUSH in your thinking to the applications that seem needing to be addressed. (Like Martha.) And it allows you to say things like: "the view point I espouse here is ambiguous regarding the role of the holy spirit".
A "Church" without the Holy Spirit? Even considering the Church without the Spirit that establishes it? THE SPIRIT IS THE KINGDOM! (The Divine Liturgy BEGINS--is [u/]initiated by: "Blessed be the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and onto ages of ages. THAT initiates and establishes the Church as the clergy and laity--the whole royal priesthood--together call on the Name of the Lord.)
I never said the Church was without the Holy Spirit. I said that because of how our failures in the past and present loom large in my world-view there is ambiguity in my view regarding the precise workings of the Holy Spirit.
We don't got the Kingdom of God yet and for us to celebrate our existing institutions as such may lead for us to turn a blind eye to their fallible natures.
quote:
The "Ecclesiastical Problems of Order" is strictly a WESTERN thing. It actually is--I checked it out. Externals are something that about EVERY twig of the Christian "tree" knows about. and addresses pastoraly. (WMBI--Moody Radio corrects this by talking about "external rules" versus an "internal relationship.) The East has a much stronger attentiveness to the Spirit's place. More "charistmatic." And the drawback is less attention to social programs--though not lacking. But the plus-side is that even under severe persecution it grew incredable intellectual and spiritual GIANTS. (Think Russia, and the dessert Fathers.)
Well perhaps it was because of that extreme persecution that it grew incredible intellectual and spiritual GIANTS. A lack of attentiveness to the fallible and modifiable nature of ecclesiastical decisions can make one intransient on issues of comparably less importance than the big picture.
quote:
You say that your "view" "takes a non-teleological view of the historical development of Christian Traditions". THEN WHAT DOES IT ACCOMPLISH? Something built on sand, that will be irrelevant with the next shifting tide?
No, because I do not dismiss tradition, or suggest we start completely anew. I just am pointing to the need to work things out, without access to a complete infallible blue-print. This is what I have referred to in the past as the reality of the political.
quote:
Then, "One could also say the possibility of innovation, ethical circumstances not experienced in the past..." LET ME STOP YOU THERE. Rather than assuming that there is something "new under the Sun" we might better go BACK in history. GOD IS CREATOR. Creation by the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit established ALL. What is there that has not come about by the utterance of God's Word? And what is not sustained by same? What is there, anywhere, that is irrelevant to the core logoi of God's "hypo-thesis" for it? (See St. Symeon the New Theologian, and St. Maximus the Confessor.)
Well the innovations could solely be innovations from our finite human perspectives and God's word does is indeed spirit-breathed and instructive for all of life. It is this way because it does not try to address every nuanced situation. This is why traditions are so critical in the ecclesiastical problem of order.
quote:
quote:
So are you saying we should view God as being in Control and that any serious consideration of the aspects of the reality of evil in this world and what concrete alternatives might be available to us is trying to usurp God of God's role in moving history?
Seems that the whole purpose for the Gardener to say "wait until they grow up" is aimed towards the harvest. Its the growth INSIDE that is the goal.
Yes, but we do spread manure and weed out the weeds that can be weeded? Crops do ultimately depend on the Sonshine, but there are tending problems that can be dealt with along the way and sometimes new diseases that vary from ones that have been dealt with before crop up as well.
quote:
quote:
I think it is clear from the homosexuality link that the Christian Community is not in agreement on what is the most loving thing we should do for homosexuals. But those disagreements are because we are not all in the center.
You strike me as quasi-sitting in a place where "center" is a concept (even if abstract!) instead of a PERSON.
We see but through a glass darkly. Part of the problem of order lies in the fallibleness of Christian leadership and how they may manipulate Christians into thinking a certain path is "God's Will" when other paths may also be acceptable and even preferable. Paul spends a lot of time talking about the establishment of leadership and criticizing of the fallen practices of various churches that stem from failings in their leadership.
quote:
CLOSING:
When Matthew says, "Seek first the Kingdom" that Kingdom is the Spirit with us. (God's Person. Not a system-of-order.)
Yes, but that Spirit has not settled the ecclesiastical problems of order for us for all times and places and so we must still reconsider with much fear and trembling our received institutions.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | ps,
my focus on the problem of order stems from my interaction with an agnostic jewish person's thought and studies in the Social Sciences, not the RCC. Although, Protestants do obscure the importance of tradition and the reality of the political in our ecclesiastical problems of order, just as RCC-types treat their answers commonly within a teleological fashion.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: ps, my focus on the problem of order stems from my interaction with an agnostic jewish person's thought and studies in the Social Sciences
Perhaps this is related to the "Rabbinic tradition" and its "idea of Torah study as replacement for sacrifice." The "objectivizing" of God's Logos/Word into Words?
Such an objectivizing fits the Rabbinical legalities into something that parallel's the RCC legalities.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/11/2003 2:45:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
PoW: A "Church" without the Holy Spirit? Even considering the Church without the Spirit that establishes it? THE SPIRIT IS THE KINGDOM! (The Divine Liturgy BEGINS--is initiated by: "Blessed be the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and onto ages of ages. THAT initiates and establishes the Church as the clergy and laity--the whole royal priesthood--together call on the Name of the Lord.)
DLW: We don't got the Kingdom of God yet and for us to celebrate our existing institutions as such may lead for us to turn a blind eye to their fallible natures.
Wait a minute, my Baptist friend. The Kingdom was annunciated at Pentacost!!!!!
quote:
PoW: The "Ecclesiastical Problems of Order" is strictly a WESTERN thing. It actually is--I checked it out. Externals are something that about EVERY twig of the Christian "tree" knows about. and addresses pastoraly. (WMBI--Moody Radio corrects this by talking about "external rules" versus an "internal relationship.) The East has a much stronger attentiveness to the Spirit's place. More "charistmatic." And the drawback is less attention to social programs--though not lacking. But the plus-side is that even under severe persecution it grew incredable intellectual and spiritual GIANTS. (Think Russia, and the dessert Fathers.)
DLW: Well perhaps it was because of that extreme persecution that it grew incredible intellectual and spiritual GIANTS. A lack of attentiveness to the fallible and modifiable nature of ecclesiastical decisions can make one intransient on issues of comparably less importance than the big picture.
THIS IS A TOTAL NON-ANSWER! I said above, correctly, that "The East has a much stronger attentiveness to the Spirit's place. More 'charistmatic.'" This is evident in its liturgy, its politics, its hagiology.
quote:
PoW: "takes a non-teleological view of the historical development of Christian Traditions". THEN WHAT DOES IT ACCOMPLISH? Something built on sand, that will be irrelevant with the next shifting tide?
DLW: No, because I do not dismiss tradition, or suggest we start completely anew. I just am pointing to the need to work things out, without access to a complete infallible blue-print.
Perhaps your idea of a "teleological view" lacks an "eschatological" aspect? That means the "fullness" of the eschata now. The "day of the lord" happens at different times for different persons. For those who walk completely with God it is "now." For them Christ's appearing with be something of a continuity. But for those who run from God his appearance will be like Fire.
quote:
PoW: GOD IS CREATOR. Creation by the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit established ALL. What is there that has not come about by the utterance of God's Word? And what is not sustained by same? What is there, anywhere, that is irrelevant to the core logoi of God's "hypo-thesis" for it? (See St. Symeon the New Theologian, and St. Maximus the Confessor.)
DLW: Well the innovations could solely be innovations from our finite human perspectives and God's word does is indeed spirit-breathed and instructive for all of life. It is this way because it does not try to address every nuanced situation. This is why traditions are so critical in the ecclesiastical problem of order.
You read what I was saying as pertaining to the written scriptures. It was to the "spoken" Word, the divine Logos and His work in the Creation.
My point in writing that was to provide foundation for the observation that (switching to Calvin's phrasing here) the "creation law" is God's will, and it does not change with our fashions.
quote:
PoW: Seems that the whole purpose for the Gardener to say "wait until they grow up" is aimed towards the harvest. Its the growth INSIDE that is the goal.
DLW: Yes, but we do spread manure and weed out the weeds that can be weeded? Crops do ultimately depend on the Sonshine, but there are tending problems that can be dealt with along the way and sometimes new diseases that vary from ones that have been dealt with before crop up as well.
I said, "Its the growth INSIDE that is the goal." Your saying "tending problems" seem to address the largeness of growth, rather than the integrity of it. (If not, then... But I'm emphasizing the integrity: "growth INSIDE that is the goal.")
quote:
DLW: Paul spends a lot of time talking about the establishment of leadership and criticizing of the fallen practices of various churches that stem from failings in their leadership.
For Paul, the leader is the Spirit.
quote:
PoW: When Matthew says, "Seek first the Kingdom" that Kingdom is the Spirit with us.
DLW: Yes, but that Spirit has not settled the ecclesiastical problems of order for us for all times and places and so we must still reconsider with much fear and trembling our received institutions.
The "the ecclesiastical problems of order" is a western fabrication. And it presupposes a dualistic universe, with some things being sacred and others being secuar. The "ecclesiastical problems of order" is a mixing and blending of two things that don't rightly belong separate in the first place.
The "received institution" of the Church is not as "received" as we sometimes make it. It does not belong to us; we belong in it.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/11/2003 3:08:51 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/11/2003 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | From Oscar Cullmann's Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?, Chapter 3: The First-Born from the Dead
www.jbburnett.com/biblica/cullmann/cullmann-immort-3.html
quote:
Between the Resurrection of Christ and the Destruction of Death
We ought to try simply to understand what the first Christians meant when they spoke of Christ as being the Îfirst-born from the dead.
. . .
We should for once simply listen to what the New Testament says. Christ the first-born from the dead! His body the first Resurrection Body, the first Spiritual Body. Where this conviction is present, the whole of life and the whole of thought must be influenced by it. The whole thought of the New Testament remains for us a book sealed with seven seals if we do not read behind every sentence there this other sentence: Death has already been overcome (death, be it noted, not the body) ; there is already a new creation (a new creation, be it noted, not an immortality which the soul has always possessed) the resurrection age is already inaugurated. (If, as the Qumrân fragment most recently published by Allegro seems to confirm, the Îteacher of righteousnessÌ of this sect really was put to death and his return was awaited, still what most decisively separates this sect from the original Christian community [apart from the other differences, for which see my article, ÎThe Significance of the Qumrân TextsÌ, J. B.L.,1955. pp. 213ff] is the absence in it of faith in a resurrection which has already occurred.)
Granted that it is only inaugurated, but still it is decisively inaugurated. Only inaugurated: for death is at work, and Christians still die. The disciples experienced this as the first members of the Christian community died. This necessarily presented them with a difficult problem. (See in this regard Ph. H. Menoud, ÎLa mort dÌAnanias et de SaphiraÌ, dux sources de la tradition chrétienne. Melanges efferts à M. Goguel [1950], particularly pp. 150ff.). In 1 Corinthians 11:30 Paul writes that basically death and sickness should no longer occur. We still die, and still there is sickness and sin. But the Holy Spirit is already effective in our world as the power of new creation; He is already at work visibly in the primitive community in the diverse manifestations of the Spirit. In my book Christ and Time I have spoken of a tension between present and future, the tension between Îalready fulfilledÌ and Înot yet consummatedÌ. This tension belongs essentially to the New Testament and is not introduced as a secondary solution born of embarrassment, (See particularly F. Buri, ÎDas Problem des ausgebliebenen ParusieÌ, Schweiz. Theol. Umscan [1946], pp. 97ff. See in addition O. Cullmann, ÎDas wahre durch die ausgebliebene Parusie gestellte neutestamentliche ProblemÌ, Theol. Zeitschr. 3 [1947], p. 177ff; also pp. 428ff.) as Albert SchweitzerÌs disciples and Rudolph Bultmann maintain. (R. Bultmann, ÎHistory and Eschatology in the New TestamentÌ, New Test. Stud., I [1954], pp. 5ff.) This tension is already present in and with Jesus. He proclaims the Kingdom of God for the future; but on the other hand, He proclaims that the Kingdom of God has already broken in, since He Himself with the Holy Spirit is indeed already repulsing death by healing the sick and raising the dead (Matthew 12:28, 11:3ff, Luke 10:18.) in anticipation of the victory over death which He obtains in His own death. Schweitzer is not right when he sees as the original Christian hope only a hope in the future; nor is C. H. Dodd when he speaks only of realized eschatology; still less Bultmann when he resolves the original hope of Jesus and the first Christians into Existentialism. It belongs to the very stuff of the New Testament that it thinks in temporal categories, and this is because the belief that in Christ the resurrection is achieved is the starting-point of all Christian living and thinking. When one starts from this principle, then the chronological tension between Îalready fulfilledÌ and Înot yet consummatedÌ constitutes the essence of the Christian faith. Then the metaphor I use in Christ and Time characterizes the whole New Testament situation: the decisive battle has been fought in ChristÌs death and Resurrection; only V-day is yet to come.
Basically the whole contemporary theological discussion turns upon this question: Is Easter the starting-point of the Christian Church, of its existence, life, and thought? If so, we are living in an interim time.
. . . (continues)
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 6/11/2003 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hellow Mot,
Aren't you presupposing in your post that the existing orders that we've received are from God and should be above critique?
No. I cannot imagine how you got that from what I said. Let's start there before I address the rest of what you said.
How did you get the idea that I presupposed what you suggested? What part of what I said led you to that conclusion?
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/11/2003 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Two quick comments: first, isn't this an open theism website? And isn't one of the tenets of open theism that we are in a real give and take relationship with God, where God desire our input? Doesn't this tenet kind of make Mote's point mute (deaf, irrelevant, without purpose)? Unless Motes truly is God and wants to example the heart of each person as to why they want to find the answer.
And second, in my experience (limited as it may be) when a person is unusually strident and loud about something (particularly "sin", or the majesty of God, etc.) it usually because they have that very issue. A heart check might be in store for you, Modes.
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 6/11/2003 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Frankly, I am a bit stunned that this little thread has elicited such a radical response. All I am saying is that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (That's in the Bible, actually, just for you Honorman...it is found in more than one place, it is a common theme through both testaments. Two exact statements of this sort are found in Ps. 111:10, and prvbs. 9:10. Sorry to give you the impression that I was not guided by the biblical texts, but I find it cumbersome to quote every verse that is related to what I am saying. Particularly when those verses really ought to be familiar to wiser, older Christians such as yourself.)
I am saying that when I take this text seriously it causes me to think about theology differently. There is a mood in which theology should be done: humility. It is not a purely objective enterprise like some sort of science. We are talking about God. Let's not forget that God is present while we do it. I honestly think that many of the responses I hear from people would be very different if there was a higher awareness of God being present with them and holding them accountable to their words.
When we discuss the problem of evil, I just think we ought to do it from a position, in a mood, of submission and fear of the Lord.
More later...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 6/11/2003 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW said: "That is not true. I am not trying to restructure things to my liking, but I do have a vision of how things might be different and, in my view, better. "
My only question is, DLW, is your vision rooted in the fear of the Lord?
Honorman, is your criticism wise because of your humility before God?
Honorman is right (though his mood seems suspect--which actually makes him more wrong than right...), I raise this because I struggle with it personally. So, I decided to struggle with it out loud here. I am finding that much of my own speculating about how God could have of should have done things differently, is not tempered by my actual relationship with God. I am not fearing God while I wrestle with these issues. I think the prayer from SK above is really what I am trying to say. What good are we really doing unless our words and deeds (which DOES include our activity here in cyberspace, lest some consider this stuff exempted...) demonstrate that we fear the Lord? (Luke 1:50, Acts 9:31, Romans 3:18, 1 Cor. 2 etc. a special list for honorman...)
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
Edited by - ModesofThought on 06/11/2003 5:41:04 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey, I just had an interesting thought...
What if we were to consider possibly changing the title of this area of discussion? That might be useful for focusing what we are really doing. Maybe then we could do it more effectively...(why didn't anyone else think of this?)
My suggestion for this new title is found in the title of this thread.
You have to forgive me, but I found the name playing God to be rather offensive and critical, without bearing down any specific thing about the forum that you thought could be done differently.
quote:
What are your thoughts?
I associated you saying that what we were doing as playing God and that this was an act of lack of humility. I probably overreacted.
quote:
I couldn't fit this title:
How human beings become profoundly ungrateful, presumptuous and then decide they can (at least theoretically) run the world better than God can.
The existing order is not one run by God.
quote:
But they don't stop there, they offer suggestions to God (after, perhaps consulting with other exceptionally wise and insightful human beings) on how to improve the structures of creation and then they attribute this presumption to their own credit as if God will surely appreciate the advice (this word "advice" is especially fitting, we are indeed adding a "vice" to our collections). One might even be able to make a career out of such a thing! They will arive in heaven (obviously!!!) and God might say, "Well done my good and faithful advisor. I had never thought of some of the criticisms you have raised! Too bad you didn't spend half the time invested in speculation on actually obeying the clear commands I have given. That might have done a bit more for the problem of evil than your advice has done. Ah, but hindsight is 20/20!"
You are a theology student, you must understand that we don't deal with the problem of evil on this forum, but rather the reality of evil, concrete aspects that are generally accepted as Evil, but on which there are potentially strong differences of opinion as to what can or should be done about it...
quote:
PLEASE REFUTE, but limit yourself to use of Scripture and rational arguments that respect the idea that God is God.
You don't really interact with what we are doing here and the broad strokes you paint do paint attempts to change the status quo orders that exist as us telling God that we know better than God does how to run the universe.
This is not an open view.
quote:
Frankly, I am a bit stunned that this little thread has elicited such a radical response. All I am saying is that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (That's in the Bible, actually, just for you Honorman...it is found in more than one place, it is a common theme through both testaments. Two exact statements of this sort are found in Ps. 111:10, and prvbs. 9:10. Sorry to give you the impression that I was not guided by the biblical texts, but I find it cumbersome to quote every verse that is related to what I am saying. Particularly when those verses really ought to be familiar to wiser, older Christians such as yourself.)
Um, if you'd like to be more concrete about what specifically you see as not fearing the lord, that would be appreciated much.
quote:
I am saying that when I take this text seriously it causes me to think about theology differently. There is a mood in which theology should be done: humility. It is not a purely objective enterprise like some sort of science.
Neither is Science a purely objective enterprise like science, but there are aspects of Science that can be emulated. In particular the experimentalist attitude that we are doing is not from the mouth of God, so we can reconsider and try alternatives if we as a community do not find that it is working(like for example the political tactics used by pro-life activists for the past 20 plus years that resulted in cancelling or reducing the budgets of health clinics for the poor that might be performing abortions(as well as lots of other stuff) and the ban on partial birth abortions. ).
quote:
We are talking about God. Let's not forget that God is present while we do it. I honestly think that many of the responses I hear from people would be very different if there was a higher awareness of God being present with them and holding them accountable to their words.
How would it be different? Would we affirm then that in some vague manner God is in Control? Or, would we accept that ultimately what matters is that God's will be done and not our own?
quote:
When we discuss the problem of evil, I just think we ought to do it from a position, in a mood, of submission and fear of the Lord.
We don't discuss the problem of evil that much here(most of the links have nothing to do with theodicies). We stick to considering in detail aspects of the reality of evil, which includes an attitude derived from the open view that what we received need not be attributed to God and that we are capable of reflecting our imago-dei in being creative about thinking up new alternatives and trying them out.
This generally is a very multi-disciplinary forum as well and so appeals to science and what it informs us about the nature of how an aspect of evil manifests itself is very much welcome.
dlw
quote:
afterthought: All this is predicated on the idea that God really does exist and our respect is due to God as we think through issues like the problem of evil. After all, God is in the room, let's pretend we care. A little fear and trembling might even be in order...
So I should tremble in fear when I share my deliberation about when human life begins or what political alternatives are available on it?
vague.
quote:
Also implicit here is that there is an ethical engagement that is inherent in dealing with evil and injustices. My position is that talking about it without doing something about it eventially becomes ethical culpability. This is sometimes referred to as "whining." It is especially whining because those with the requisite leisure time for such talk are surely not among those who are most entrenched in radical evil. Those in the latter category are unable to speak about it for various reasons, often physically and psychologically, perhaps because they simply didn't survive.
Unhelpful, of course we can't do something about these things here on the discussion board, because this is where we discuss things.... I did do stuff about my beliefs regarding the reality of evil while I was in Grad School. I was a top organizer to form a union for graduate students.
quote:
Rather we might need to discuss the biblical, vs the contemporary view of the meaning of life and death....just a hint in a different direction...
Vague. I already mentioned that because of increased ability to observe and abort fetuses that we deal with the question of when human life begins differently than they did in Biblical times. Now, what you suggest may be a great thing for us to do in conjunction with the ongoing debates, but ultimately at the end of the day the key issues we discuss are concrete specifics regarding how we use our say-so to address the evils that face us today.
Which falls under the problem of order, in that we must work our differences to build or redirect our solidarity on issues.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW said: "That is not true. I am not trying to restructure things to my liking, but I do have a vision of how things might be different and, in my view, better. "
My only question is, DLW, is your vision rooted in the fear of the Lord?
What would make you believe it is not rooted in the fear of the Lord? You think I like being called someone who advocates for murderous policies? You think I wouldn't make the critical judgments regarding how we use our political capital if I wasn't aware of how past approaches have failed and their unintended consequences and what alternatives may be available to us?
quote:
Honorman is right (though his mood seems suspect), I raise this because I struggle with it personally. So, I decided to struggle with it out loud here. I am finding that much of my own speculating about how God could have of should have done things differently, is not tempered by my actual relationship with God.
This is not a healthy way to look at things. The problem is not with God, but with us.
quote:
I am not fearing God while I wrestle with these issues. I think the prayer from SK above is really what I am trying to say. What good are we really doing unless our words and deeds (which DOES include our activity here in cyberspace, lest some consider this stuff exempted...) demonstrate that we fear the Lord? (Luke 1:50, Acts 9:31, Romans 3:18, 1 Cor. 2 etc. a special list for honorman...)
A lot of the issues we deal with here are not addressed exactly in the Bible. Am I to fear God that I may not be loving in how I spice my tangos with HonorDude? I mean I am afraid you are going to need to be more specific about what you are saying.
When I advocate policies here as alternatives to the status quo, I come across as forceful in my views, but I do listen and alter my views based on feed-back even though I have to chew on some of them a bit before swallowing.
So please do clarify...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 6/11/2003 1:03 PM (GMT -6) | | The form of Modes' initial post is just as important as its content. If you are serious about understanding him take the form into account. Satire is not a very popular genre in our day because it makes its point by mixing playfullness and provocation. We tend to get caught up in whatever is provocative and miss out on all the play…and of course, the point.
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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