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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/9/2002 1:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Springs,
Glad to hear you ARE doing better, sounds like you have a lot of good friends here. 
I really do agree with you that Satan can and does use sickness to harm and destroy. I hope I didn't give the impression that I doubted that - I just think a lot of sickness, tragedies and misfortune is the result of our own doing.
In fact, I feel so strongly about the negative effect of poor health on our spiritual welfare that I do criticise the church in general for neglecting to place as much emphasise on the need to look after our bodies as our minds.
I think it is clear from both the Bible and scientific analysis that there is a strong link between physical and mental health, and if we willingly allow our physical welfare to degenerate, then we shouldn't be surprised to find our mental strength correspondingly impaired - and thus providing a wonderful opportunity for the devil to make his mischief!
I guess, if we really analyse the root causes leading to even "natural" illness we can often find some form of sin or bad habit lurking somewhere behind it.
I would find it very rewarding to see a church start to take more interest in running physical health programs and nature courses as a way to keep our physical "temples" in a clean, fit, inspired and well-defended condition!
But it is also fascinating to see how God can use even great suffering from illness to achieve good. I have been reading recently the accounts of two people suffering from terminal cancer and, whilst neither would have willingly submitted themselves to this disease, they both said they would never have wanted to miss what they have learnt through their illnesses.
We often think we are comfortable and healthy living amongst the wealthy nations, but it is incredible how much happiness, faith and peace is often to be found amongst the poorest of people living in the poorest of habitats. We really need to be extremely objective in recognising what is truly important and necessary in maintaining good health, physically and mentally - and a strong, unwavering faith securely built on top of it. The answers are not always so obvious, I think.
There is a lot to be said for maintaining a simple, routine, disciplined, lifestyle - with plenty of time for silence and stillness. But try and find a doctor that will prescribe it.
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/09/2002 06:30:41 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Shine
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Total Posts : 24
| Posted 7/10/2002 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | In regards to any circumstance, we need to remember who we are in Christ.
I like what Paul said in Philippians 2, "Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in Spirit, intent on one purpose.....
I wonder if this love that we have in Christ could help us understand the meaning of life. I don't understand it all, all of the pain and suffering, if it is a direct attack from Satan or if it caused by our own choices (or both). All I have to remember throughout life, with all of its trials and tribulation, is who I am in Christ and I get my life from Him. For the most part, in any given circumstance, I focus on the solution (Jesus) rather than the problem.
I am glad you are feeling better Springs, I was praying for you.
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writerdad
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Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/10/2002 7:00 PM (GMT -6) | | If disease is the result of Satan why are you going to a doctor? If Jesus assumed that all disease was of Satan, could we not just rebuke Satan and the disease would be gone? Isn't that what Jesus did? Shouldn't we be doing that as his followers? Does it not show a lack of faith in him, if disease is wholly a spiritual problem?
As for the verse in Acts, I think it is a stretch to assume that Peter was using this verse to literally mean that every person that Jesus healed of every disease was afflicted by Satan. Peter (in my view, of course) was using a general term in the sense that we are ALL afflicted in some way by Satan and, in that sense, everyone who he healed he healed of an affliction of Satan.
Doc, I am not sure what significance the half dozen times is, except for that half a dozen times. I am not disputing that there are times when Satan is involved. I am simply pointing out that I do not think it is the norm, nor do I think we should assume it is. I am curious as to where, biblically, we should be "shooting in the direction of the enemy," confronting the enemy or anything like that. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, true, but confronting the devil is quite a different thing. I remember hearing Walter Martin say on a tape once that he wouldn't cross the street to confront an exorcism, that the only way he would ever do one was if it were thrust upon him by God, simply because it is a spiritually unhealthy place to be. I would agree with him.
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markus
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/10/2002 8:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Even when Satan may be the cause of some disease, there is no reason why a doctor should not be the cure. There are many different scenarios to be considered regarding both the nature of the attack and the remedy needed to overcome it. The Bible also describes many different situations. In some cases a demon was still a living presence in people and only faith could evict them. In other cases, the victim was left blind or crippled but not possessed.
Nowadays, we use medicine as well as prayer to heal. But I am not sure we can just rebuke Satan and be left in peace. Even though Jesus rebuked him at the time of His temptations, Satan did not intend to leave Jesus alone for good:
"And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." Luk 4:13
How much less are we then able to keep Satan at bay, in our feeble faith? I believe, as you say WD, that this DOES show our general shallow faith in him. Compared with the disciples and the early Christians, most people do not have such deep conviction supporting their faith, neither do we nowadays see such acts performed, such as were promised as possible through great faith.
I also share your reticence about "shooting in the direction of the enemy." Surely, Satan is far more powerful than any one individual on this earth, and any attempt to "take on the devil" is almost certain to end up in disaster for most people. Even a limited victory can lead to self-satisfaction, thereby opening a backdoor into your mind through which Satan slips quietly back in.
Jesus Himself only tells Satan to get behind Him, and I think that is also the only option for us. We need to recognise Satan when he is present and turn our back toward him and maintain our focus sharply, clearly, and wholly on Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone can succeed in beating Satan, but we can certainly ignore him. Although this is certainly somewhat easier to achieve with temptations than with illness, pain and suffering. But Jesus never said (as far as I recall) that those in faith would be immune to pain and suffering - only that it would not be more than we can bear. But even that seems difficult to understand in some cases of extreme suffering.
In many instances, suffering leads to a maturing of character, an awareness of God's presence, a rearrangement of life values, a strengthening of willpower, and a vitality to faith - the good derived from bad.
There are almost certainly many diseases and illnesses that are not a direct spiritual attack on a specific, unfortunate person. But many are the result of our communal acceptance of certain compromises in society.
Interestingly, though, life was far worse in terms of health in Jesus' time than now. Nearly every family lost some of their children at an early age. Five children were needed even to maintain population stability. Life expectancy was around 40-50 years. Many people suffered from deformities and terrible diseases. Diet was poor. Shelter was shared with animals. Refuse and sewage lay in the streets in the heat. Drinking water was contaminated. Death was a reality that lived in everyone's lives. But faith was sparked and blossomed in those conditions far quicker than in our present day.
It seems suffering is an integral part of our learning process in this world. If there was no suffering at all, how many people would be in faith?
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/11/2002 01:44:20 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/10/2002 8:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad,
I'll agree with you that Dr. Boyd's answer is really... well, confusing.
quote:
is it not significant that over half the times Jesus confronts sickness and diseases he or the gospel authors diagnosis it as coming from Satan and/or a demon?
First, I did a quick search at studylight and didn't find anything of the sort. I think the figure is closer to 1/3 of the time. Second, even if it was near half, I think we could just as easily argue "is it not significan't that half the time Jesus doesn't address Satan as the cause of the illness?"
Or put differently: if sickness always = demon, why did Jesus 'heal' people without explicitly casting a demon out? How would touching someone, making clay spittle, telling them to stretch out their hands, etc., cast out the demon? And, if the demon was cast out, why weren't we told? Wouldn't Jesus have done us a HUGE favor by explaining how every biological evil is caused by a demon? Certainly then Paul wouldn't have then foolishly urged his pupil to 'take some wine' for his stomach rather than casting out the 'stomach pain demon'!
At the very least, I think the biblical evidence is mixed. But I'm not a trained exegete so maybe Boyd will correct something I'm missing.
Writerdad wrote:
quote:
Peter (in my view, of course) was using a general term in the sense that we are ALL afflicted in some way by Satan and, in that sense, everyone who he healed he healed of an affliction of Satan.
This seems much closer to the case.
Writerdad, a few other things.
Why, logically, would the gospel writers separate demonic problems from healing problems in their lists (mt. 4.23-4; Mt. 8.16; Mt. 10.1; Mt. 10.8, Lu 8.2, etc. etc.) if they were the same thing? Some people might, I guess, interpret 'healing' as an amplification of 'casting out demons.' Then you have a BIG problem with Mt. 10.8 because 'rasing the dead' becomes just another demonic possession problem. Hooboy.
Why in Luke 9, is Jesus said to have "healed" a boy that was merely demon possessed? I submit the most likely explanation is yours--"healing" is used in a generic sense for all sorts of alleviation of bad conditions. I don't see evidence that the 'convulsions' were viewed by the crowd as a sickness to be "healed" in our sense of the words.
Why did the Jews think both John the Baptist and Jesus were insane and therefore 'had a demon' (Mt. 11.18; Joh 7.20; 8.48-9).? Again, these people seemed to blame any sort of abnormality (even John's fasting regimen) on demonic activity. Just because the audience thought that way, it doesn't follow that Jesus did. On the other hand, it certainly makes sense for Jesus and the gospel writers to write and act as thought the two were related, given this milleux.
Thus it's even more striking that the gospels often clearly separate them: Jesus healed the sick AND cast out demons. Not "by". Not "through" or "therefore".
The term for both casting out demons and removing sickness seems to be "healing" (Lu. 8.2) so it is possible to (in my view) misread the bible to say that "casting out demons = healing = removal of sickness, therefore sickness = demons". Yet this is key: even though 'healing' is the term for alleviating both, sickness and demonic activity are clearly not co-terminous throughout the gospels or New Testament.
My view may be like yours, Writerdad. For example, my wife asked me why God would choose some parents to get girl babies and some to get boys and how that might fit his Master Plan (she's not really an opennist). I picked up the TV remote, dropped it, and said, 'why did God choose to let the remote fall to the ground?'. He didn't, really, except that he set the rules in motion by which gravity works.
In the same way, smoking puts crap in your lungs and that can cause cancer. Maybe (*maybe*) there's demonic involvement in picking up the smoking habit, and demons probably play roles in getting kids addicted. After that, move on to the next victim. Doc's cancer thing may be genetic, or may be the result of demonic attacks. He seems to believe in the later and he seems to be pretty discerning.
Doc said: quote:
So I feel I’m warranted to announce – "Church, there is an attack going on."
I agree with him, after having listened to the sermon where he discussed it. I understood you to be asking about attacks in general, not really challenging Boyd's interpretation of this incident, so I don't see where defensiveness is warranted on either side.
quote:
And this shouldn’t scar us. Rather, the first thing Jesus said about the church is that it would STORM THE GATES OF HELL and WIN.
I think Doc meant "scare" when he said scar. Minor difference.  It often does scar us, but probably shouldn't scare us, partly because even death = victory for us.
Don't you think his emphasis, in the sermon, on these boards, and in this thread seems to be on the Church's role in fighting off attacks? In fact, he advocates taking the attack to the enemy. But is he proclaiming the might and power of Satan?
Writerdad, you seem to be asking about the other side of the same coin, not really offering a contrary world view. You ask the same question: Why shouldn't the attacks scare us? As you note, it's not just because we can attack him and win, but because the attacks are often poorly executed, blatantly obvious, and end up doing more harm than good to the cause of Satan.
Simply, what the devil means for evil, God often uses for good. He's more powerful and more smarter than the devil and, somewhat mysteriously, uses our prayers to thwart Satan's plans (praying Christians = the Cosmic Scooby Doo Gang).
It often takes a wise preacher, or someone with the gift of discernment and another person who's got the gift of exhortation to rally people to fight a concerted attack in a concerted way. When we do, the results are usually amazing and make us wonder, as you did, why we were worried in the first place....
then we fall back in to our malaise and daily schedules....
and forget to pray....
and snuggle up to all our old familiar sins....
and the process starts all over again.
And then there's times when evil flat out wins. He's not a roaring poodle, after all.
So far, I'd say he won in paralyzing my friend's teenage son and it makes me very angry. I doubt there's a demon of paralysis in his spine that needs casting out, but I also believe God can heal him.
Writerdad:
quote:
Personally, I see no reason to ever stir the devil up unless one has to.
I think Boyd felt he "had to." I also don't think it would matter much if he were wrong. At worst, he's energizing a congregation to focus on God, to pray, to fast, to seek and expect God to work. Maybe some pastors would have turned the situation in to a fire and brimstone and fear of Satan sermon, but I don't think Boyd did. He pretty much followed your 'moderate road' of giving Satan some due and giving God a LOT more.
Not to end on a negative/challenging note, but can you explain this sentence to me? I'd like to know where you're coming from.
quote:
I ask because Christians who continuely view negative events as "being attacked" scare me.
Terry
“Alrightokuhhuhamen” --Rich Mullins
www.kidbrothers.net/npp.html#a
Edited by - Terry_Baxter on 07/11/2002 09:35:57 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/11/2002 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry: thanks for your thought provoking response.
Why do Christians (as such) scare me? Because they invoke an unhealthy interest in Satan, which can lead to spiritaul entanglements which can be dangerous.
If one looks at the overall writings of the New Testament the pattern is growth in Christ and on how we respond to situations. While Satan is mentioned, the attitude is one of resistance, not confrontation. Even in Eph 6, it is so you may "extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one." A defensive posture, not an offensive one.
While we are called to be aware of Satan, there is no spiritual position that says we should be confronting him, nor is it a healthy one. One should ask this: what would someone do differently (in a case such as Doc's) if one assumed that it wasn't Satan, but rather just a disease? Would one pray? Would one ask others to pray? Would one still go to the doctor? What would be missing would be the energy wondering what Satan was doing, whether this was of Satan, etc. Such things draw attention away from God, his work and his glory.
In mulling this over, I think one of the mistakes made (and this is where I think Penecostals err) is assuming that are lives are called to do what Jesus' did. I remember hearing Dallas Willard talk on emotions. And he said that we should keep some of our emotions in check. He said he knows that some Christians will respond that didn't Jesus get angry in the temple. And he said that he believed there were some things that he would entrust to Jesus, that Jesus could handle that we could not. And I agree with him.
I think we Christians err when we assume that following Jesus and trying to live as he did means we can do many of the things he did. He (and by extention the apostles) were unique. We should remember that the healings were signs, pointing to the power he possessed and who he was. It was, ultimately, for the establishment of the kingdom and the Church that these signs were done.
We err when we think we can confront Satan as they did or do many of the things they did, because that was a unique time in history. We also err when we think that we can know (fully) the works of Satan, or we have any power to do something about it.
We are called to resist the devil, to be aware but not overly preoccupied with what he is doing. Better to continuely submit to God in reverance than to "shout at the enemy." "May the Lord rebuke you," Michael declared to Satan. It scares me when Christians feel that they can confront Satan because they don't know what they are getting in to. Particularly when one figures in free will and possibly of "falling away." Far better to cling to the Lord and "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Harold
Finally, where does Jesus say about the church that it will storm the gates of hell and win?
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 7/11/2002 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/11/2002 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Mt. 17 Jesus replied, "blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build by church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
...but I have called you friends... Jn 15:15
Edited by - Springs on 07/12/2002 01:02:00 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/11/2002 8:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Eph. 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefor put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flamiing arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occassions with all kinds of prayer and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keeep on praying for all the saints.
...but I have called you friends... Jn 15:15 | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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| Posted 7/11/2002 8:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name. 18 He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpians and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
...but I have called you friends... Jn 15:15 | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/11/2002 9:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Physical suffering is maybe the most visible of troubles, but there is a war for our spiritual health which is far more important. Is it not with this warfare that Paul is so greatly concerned? But I would personally see his recommendations as defensive and protective rather than encouraging the launching of an offensive of our own.
Eph6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
Lean on God, not on your own strength - it is not enough.
11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
Armour is an outfit designed to protect against injury from an assailant. Taking one’s stand is to remain firm and unmoved, and not to give ground. Combined, this is not a posture of attack.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
A struggle evokes a feeling of being under attack rather that initiating an offensive.
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything to stand.
Again, a defensive posture in anticipation of an inevitable future attack.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
When subjected to doubt and unbelief, keep yourself bound tightly within the Truth in the Scriptures and stave off temptation by building a wall around you cemented with Jesus’ words of morality, uprightness, and virtue.
15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
Peace is a response of non-aggression. It’s strength lies in its impenetrability.
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flamiing arrows of the evil one.
Faith in Jesus Christ. By diverting one’s gaze away from evil, and keeping one’s eyes and heart focused and concentrated purely on Jesus and the way ahead, there is no chink left through which evil can penetrate.
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Remind yourself of the rewards for those that persevere against all misfortunes. The only weapon needed is to parry the thrust of an enemy with belief in the word as given to us in the Bible – and follow the swordsmanship of Jesus when suffering temptation.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayer and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Without prayer there is no substance. The armour becomes a fragile husk, blown away by the mildest breeze of unrest. The shield shrivels like cling-film before the furnace. The sword crumbles like old dust in our hands as the word of God chokes with hollowness and insincerity in our throats.
Faith in God’s love for us through Jesus Christ, immersion in the strength of the bible, and a mind wholly dominated by a desire to do God’s will – and there is no room for spiritual damage.
Do not fear those that can only destroy the body.
Satan is not after our physical bodies, they are ultimately of no use to anyone. But a weakened physical structure makes it much harder to maintain our spiritual armour in place. Our bodies may become wrecked and wracked with pain, but our soul may still remain pure in its faith.
The Christian martyrs had no concern for their physical welfare, nor did they stir up open warfare against evil - they just simply kept their eyes undiverted from their objective. Stephen stared into the heavens and was blessed with the sight of God as he was stoned to his physical death.
Our own stoning may come in many different forms, but our defensive answer to it is clear from Paul's words
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/12/2002 02:55:17 AM (can't spell anything today - must be an attack)
Edited by - markus on 07/12/2002 03:02:35 AM
Edited by - markus on 07/12/2002 03:04:41 AM
Edited by - markus on 07/12/2002 03:06:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pouringagape
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 7/12/2002 12:38 AM (GMT -6) | | springs,,
amen, Amen, AMEN!!
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me , so that they may be one, as we are one. | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
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| Posted 7/12/2002 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
I do my devotional studies elsewhere so I don't just read scripture here to be reading it. I've no doubt its profitable for something. What point were you making based on the scriptures you cited?
Or perhaps Pouring can explain what elicited the amens.
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BJS
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| Posted 7/12/2002 4:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry, read the entire thread if you want context for Springs' quotes.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
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| Posted 7/12/2002 4:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Brett,
I did read the thread and I *think* I understand the context. I think Springs was building on the idea of
quote:
I agree with you that the more you and your community abide in Christ the more able you are to discern the schemes of the enemy.
but I'm not sure I see it in the quotes or that I'm seeing everything that's there from Springs perspective (are you?).
It's also possible that Springs was responding to writerdad on the issue of being like Jesus. If so, I could use a 'connect the dots.'
Springs has proven capable of answering questions, although certainly isn't required to respond to me. I understand sometimes you get so oppressed, the only thing you have energy to do is quote Scripture to the devil. And sometimes that's the best thing to do. I've been there.
On the other hand, since I'm not in the situation Springs described and Springs obviously has meaning to add to those scriptures that might be profitable, I'd like to hear it.
Or you, or Pouringagape, might elaborate on what you see, if you're so inclined. But "mere" Bible quotes are pretty much just that to me in this forum, and I'd like to learn what there is to learn.
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pouringagape
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| Posted 7/12/2002 5:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Springs,
I do my devotional studies elsewhere so I don't just read scripture here to be reading it. I've no doubt its profitable for something. What point were you making based on the scriptures you cited?
Or perhaps Pouring can explain what elicited the amens.
SURE!! Well, first of all I'm a passionate person...so, many
times I say things 3 times...it can be weird, but, that's just
me. The reason for the "amen" in the first place is that I
truly believe that if we line up our thinking with scripture it
disarms the enemy! (which is what I thought springs was doing)
Plus, when it goes out, it doesn't come back void either!!
Therefore, when springs posted the scriptures I was just happy. YEAHHHHH whoo hooooooooo
how's that?
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me , so that they may be one, as we are one.
Edited by - pouringagape on 07/12/2002 2:36:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/12/2002 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Brett,
Your response goes to show that we can’t help but feel protective of those for whom we interceed. (another good reason to pray for our enemies)
Terry,
I figured someone would respond in the fashion you did when I put up the scripture, cause I get the same feeling when I read posts like that, sort of an aaannnddd… your point is? [J] And your response wasn’t graceless so I’m not offended by it.
I was actually starting to respond to Writerdad’s query:
Finally, where does Jesus say about the church that it will storm the gates of hell and win?
I think the Matthew 17 verse is where they get started and then they pull up some of the other ones I included. Some versions says the gates will not prevail, giving a connotation of their being attacked.
Mephi’s post sums it up for me:It's obvious that Paul interpreted some of the troubles of his journies DIRECTLY to being opposed by Satan. Since Jesus (who is the Son of God) held this view and lived by it...AND gave indications that he came to oppose the "works of Satan", then it would be reasonable to, at least in some cases, be open to the possibility of something being demonically caused.
Nice job with the scripture Markus. I don’t know much about fencing:
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. The only weapon needed is to parry the thrust of an enemy with belief in the word as given to us in the Bible – and follow the swordsmanship of Jesus when suffering temptation.
But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that were I sword fighting I would do more than simply deflect the other’s attack. I think quoting scripture or speaking truth at the enemy can be aggressive.
Having said that, I must say that I agree with Writerdad, in that as with all issues, we get extremes. Some people do see a demon under every bush, never considering the idea that God could be standing in their way. I don’t get the impression that Dad is saying we never come under demonic attack, just that some people get too focused on the power of the enemy instead of the power of God.
I don’t spend my time demon hunting, but on the other hand, I am not intimidated by the enemy, and when I have reason to believe they are active around me I don’t hesitate to use scripture, and yes, the power and authority I have in Christ to repel their attack.
For the most part I didn’t find the language Writerdad used to be excluding the possibility of attack by Satan and defense against him until we got to this point:
quote:
I think we Christians err when we assume that following Jesus and trying to live as he did means we can do many of the things he did. He (and by extention the apostles) were unique. We should remember that the healings were signs, pointing to the power he possessed and who he was. It was, ultimately, for the establishment of the kingdom and the Church that these signs were done.
We err when we think we can confront Satan as they did or do many of the things they did, because that was a unique time in history. We also err when we think that we can know (fully) the works of Satan, or we have any power to do something about it.
I do believe we can follow Christ’s example and do what he did. It’s sounds like WD is a cessationist. I’m not. Sure the great commission says, spread the gospel, not kick demon butt, but we are still establishing the kingdom. We may not be able to FULLY know the work of Satan, and we have no power against him without Christ. But in Christ there is plenty we can do about it.
How’s that for starters?
Oh and before I forget,
quote:
I am glad you are feeling better Springs, I was praying for you.
Thank you. I felt the ministry of the Holy Spirit that day. As we left town my husband put in a worship CD we have from Woodland and we spent the first leg of the trip praising God.
Springs
...but I have called you friends... Jn 15:15
Edited by - Springs on 07/12/2002 12:20:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/12/2002 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Markus: you made my point precisely. Springs, a couple of points. We can follow in Jesus' footsteps? Prove it historically. Considering All the saints who have lived throughout church history, one would assume that there would be one time where there would be a outpouring of miracles AS JESUS did (raising of the dead, etc.). Yet historically, there is not.
Matthew 17 says nothing about storms the gates of hell. It simply says the gates of hell will not prevail, which is a defense posture.
I am not a cessionist, I am a pragmatist. There is no proof, either scripturly or historically that we are to follow exactly in Jesus's footsteps. As I said before, if you look at Jesus' words, his miracles were, first off, signs of who he was. They established him.
You're not intimidated by the enemy...I sure am. Without God, Satan could crush me like a bug. So, yes, I am intimidated by him. That doesn't mean I don't do the jobs God gives me, but I can't say I have your confidence...
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/12/2002 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Writer dad: We can follow in Jesus' footsteps? Prove it historically. Considering All the saints who have lived throughout church history, one would assume that there would be one time where there would be a outpouring of miracles AS JESUS did (raising of the dead, etc.). Yet historically, there is not.
S:What about the Great Awakening? I do think there were times of great outpouring. I have heard of others being raised from the dead. I consider what all the great saints have written to be a part of our history. Many of them attest to great miracles.
WD: I am not a cessionist, I am a pragmatist.
S: I am glad you are practical and don't deny that the Holy Spirit still works in us, and through us today in power, so that we can walk in victory over sin and death.
WD: There is no proof, either scripturly or historically that we are to follow exactly in Jesus's footsteps.
S: Jesus said, "Follow me." I don't remember him qualifying that. He said you will do greater things than these... He gave us authority and commissioned us bring the good news to the broken hearted and to set the captives free.
WD:As I said before, if you look at Jesus' words, his miracles were, first off, signs of who he was. They established him.
S: And I say, his miracles today attest to the fact that he still inhabits his kingdom today.
WD: You're not intimidated by the enemy...I sure am. Without God, Satan could crush me like a bug. So, yes, I am intimidated by him.
S: But you are not without God. You don't have to fear.
'Course there's no shame in being startled.
Springs
...but I have called you friends... Jn 15:15 | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/13/2002 12:27 AM (GMT -6) | | In one of the above postings, Spring's says:
quote:
But I don?t think it?s unreasonable to assume that were I sword fighting I would do more than simply deflect the other?s attack. I think quoting scripture or speaking truth at the enemy can be aggressive.
I think the response to this is an absolute "YES". Not only CAN it be aggressive, but maybe it should ALWAYS be aggressive - and as loudly as possible, shout it from the depths of our hearts, throw it straight into the devil's face! But this is still aggressive defence - not the launching of an aggressive offensive.
But let's also be sure what we are doing when we shout scripture at the devil. Are these our words? Does the power of these words come from our own inherent strength? Is it us that the devil recoils from in pain? No, I don't think so. This again is another example how God works through us. Whether it is in rejecting the approaches of evil or in giving our love to one another, God is working through us , His Word is working through us. When we shout God's Word at the devil we are also putting a sign over our soul saying , "Property of Jesus Christ- not for sale", we are not making our stand alone.
The main thing, I think, is not to imagine that we ourselves can alone outsmart the devil. We can bark all we like from behind God's skirts, but like the little terrier yapping behind the safety of his garden gate, we'd better not step out alone into the street. If we do that with the devil then we are doing it through our own pride - and God will not follow us in that direction.
This incapacity may sometimes be hard to swallow, especially for us menfolk, who always wish to be the heros, but maybe this is only the start of realising the humility that true faith requires of us. Humility does not mean being a gutless wimp - it means recognising that our strength and purpose comes through Christ Jesus and not by our own ego. What greater example of sheer strength in spirit, character and faith can there be than that shown by Jesus?
But I think there is another aspect of Writerdad's issue here that I think we have not explored yet? Apart from whether some, none or all
misfortune is derived from the devil's activity, there is also the issue of our own responsibility for our actions. How often do we use Satan purely as an excuse for our own negligence and sin?
Oh, how easy it is to blame Satan for everything that goes wrong in our lives. But actually, if we are really honest with ourselves and look detachedly at our situations often we can see our own handiwork in our misfortune.
Perhaps one of the greatest areas to start with is in our greed, pride, unlovingness, judgementalism and condemnation in our dealings with others (not a pleasant task!). I believe that sourness in our human relationships is one of the greatest causes of problems in our lives. Oh how easily we are offended by others! Oh how quickly our pride is injured! Oh how readily we look down on others! But do we try to resolve these issues? How often do we rather leave it buried, festering, under the surface?
...And when offence, hurt, anger, frustration, and irritation lie buried inside us they corrode our souls to pieces. And the more our soul is impaired, the more our attitudes towards others are contaminated - and when our relationships are in disorder we reflect it in our dealings with others, who, in turn, mirror it back to us in kind - and then we blame the devil some more for all the unkindness people are showing towards us and how everything seems to be going wrong.
So before we start to sort out which misfortunes to allocate to Satan, maybe we should also spend a little time checking if any of them actually originate in our own back yard.
Markus
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 7/13/2002 4:36 AM (GMT -6) | | I thought I would never post anything that would be debatable, and I always tried to stay neutral concerning any topic, but this topic raises a lot of concerns for me. I just have to state my opinion in regards to being attacked. From what I have experienced in life, I noticed continual attack from the opposing enemy and I also notice my own choices that were made caused others problems for me and others. But, I want to witness what I know in my heart about the enemies attack. I am not fanatical about this, but I am aware of the opposing enemy.
From the beginning in Genesis 3 it presents the fall of mankind in regards to the deception of the enemy. Satan was cast out of heaven because of his pride and jealousy; and he has been trying to claim God’s people as his own. Satan wants control and he is always trying to captivate our mind, thoughts, will and emotion into captivity. We, as Christians have been somewhat complacent about this and I am glad WHC is taking a stand on this. I wish more pastors would do the same.
The way I see it we are at war. There is a spiritual warfare going on more than our finite minds can comprehend. If you would read what it states in Daniel 10:12-13, it concludes that there is warfare going on in our midst. Daniel was humbling praying before God about the vision he had and the demon was trying to prevent any communication from one of God’s messengers. In passages 12 and 13 it describe the spiritual warfare between this demon and God’s messenger. In this passage it states: “Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. (13) “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I have left there with the kings of Persia.” Apparently, this demon was trying to exercise his influence over the Persian realm in the interest of Satan. The archangel Michael, “the great prince who stand guard over the people of God”, finally overcame this demon’s resistance.
There is more spiritual warfare then we really know.
What everyone is posting Writerdad is that we need to be aware of this and to guard our heart with all diligence (Proverbs 4:23) and put on the breastplate of Truth (Ephesians 6) and to withstand what the enemy has “in mind” for us. When we surrender and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, He takes residency in us; therefore, we can do everything Jesus did in the Gospels because HE LIVES (in us). In Matthew 13, Jesus explains a parable about how the Word of God can be snatched away by the evil one if we do not understand it and have it hidden in our hearts. The Word of God (Jesus) is truth and life. Doesn’t it make sense that Satan is after Christians because of the power that we posses in Christ? (I don’t think he has to battle too much with the agnostics, atheist etc.) His desire is to kill, steal and destroy us because he wants control. But, remember how much power Jesus had over the enemy and how He delivered many people from their infirmities. We need to take back what the enemy steals from us, because we have the power to do so, and because we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13). Jesus came to give us life and to live life abundantly. We cannot give in and be fooled by the lies and deception about who we are in Christ. God loves us and He wants us to do His will and not be deceived by the enemy.
There is a book I am reading and it is called: The Vision by Rick Joyner. Maybe this book will give you some insight. I am glad there are people who have taken the time to express their views and I am glad that they all care enough to do so. I am not saying be fanatical about this, but I am saying not to be blind and be more aware and know who you are in Christ.
One more thing, when I mentioned that I didn’t understand the pain and suffering in the world I was talking more about the pain and suffering children have to face. I will Never understand the pain and suffering that is being inflicted on children in regard to abuse.
Also, there are miracles going on every day, you just have to open your heart and eyes to see. I have witnessed many before my eyes. (I would be willing to share some of them if you open your heart.) And, when Jesus raised that 12 year old girl and Lazarus from the dead, it was a preparation of what was to come (ascending into Heaven), and also, so that we are able to witness that Jesus will raise us all when it is our time.
Springs, you are a women of great of vitality and I admire you for that.
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 7/13/2002 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Shine said:
Also, there are miracles going on every day, you just have to open your heart and eyes to see.
What I heard:
Writerdad has a closed heart and is blind.
It seems to me that this is an untestable attribution. You give no direct evidence for why you are making this attribution. Thus, Writerdad can neither confirm nor deny whether it is true. In short, it seems like an unfounded accusation.
Shine said:
(I would be willing to share some of them if you open your heart.)
What I heard:
Writerdad does not have an open heart.
Untestable attribution.
Shine said:
Maybe this book will give you some insight.
What I heard:
Writerdad has no insight on this matter. (If he reads this book he will achieve the higher level of insight that Shine attributes to himself and to others who agree with his point of view.)
Untestable attribution.
Shine said:
I am not saying be fanatical about this, but I am saying not to be blind and be more aware and know who you are in Christ.
What I heard:
Writerdad is blind and unaware of who he is in Christ.
Untestable attribution.
Semeia:
My intent is not to defend Writerdad. I have no energy to do that nor does he need me to.
Shine, my intent is to provide you feedback on how I heard you because my underlying assumption is that you did not intend to attack Writerdad. If you feel attacked by anything I have said here then I apologize for saying it wrong.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 7/13/2002 2:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Semeia,
Your point is valid and I thank you to opening my eyes to what might have been taken wrong. I don't know Writerdad, but I do care for him. I just want him to know that there is Spiritaul warefare going on and to be aware of this. Well, all of us should for that matter. I also don't know what goes on in the Spiritual realm so I am pointing out that there is more going on that we can attest to. This is all and I thank you for pointing out my error. I didn't mean to come across that way. And, according to writerdad, I got the impression that he has never witnessed a miracle. I could be wrong again. Thank you for your feedback, this will help me clarify my wording. Sorry
Shine
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 7/13/2002 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Shine,
Thanks for your graciousness. The most difficult thing about communicating in a forum like this is not being able to see each other's faces. I have certainly been burned many times by my own words coming across differently than I intended. And then they sit out there in cyberspace singing their own tune. Without a friendly face and tone of voice sometimes words take on a meaning that was never intended. I am surprised at the negative impact I sometimes have on people in this kind of impersonal forum; it has been quite a learning experience to try to discuss deeply-felt topics without hurting people. And I'm still learning.
I don't mind upsetting people by my ideas, but I hate when my words come across as a personal attack. Having been through that a number of times I thought I would throw down a flag here before a possible escalation of misunderstanding took place. I really appreciate your response, and I look forward to your future posts. (You may find yourself as addicted to this website as the rest of us... )
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 7/13/2002 4:55 PM (GMT -6) | | I never knew I had any addictive behaviors, but in retrospect I certainly do(humor). I really appreciate everyone who post because I end up learning soooooo much. Thank you again Semeia, you are a sweetheart.
Shine
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