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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/1/2002 5:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | With Doc being prayed for and all (and the prayer being answered, thank goodness), with all the "rhetoric" (using the term in the best possible light) comes this thought or question:
Is a person "attacked" because they get cancer? And if not always, why would one assume one is? Is a church attacked just because they are going through hard times? How does one know one is being attacked? Is there any kind of independant way of knowing (say biblically) that one is being attack or is mainly a "the Lord let me know" type of thing?
Second, Doc stated something to the effect of "roaring against the devil." There were other sentiments like that. Why would one want to roar at the devil. Personally, I see no reason to ever stir the devil up unless one has to. I, personally, have no inclination to ever disturb the devil. I would prefer the devil not even know I exist. He is bigger, strong and greater than I am and, without God, he would crush me. While, as Christians, as we walk in God and become more and more holy, the devil will take notice of us, I see nothing benefical in provoking the devil and see nothing scriptural that says we should. It is like being the owner of a computer company. You want to do well, but you certainly would rather Microsoft not take notice of you (no, I am not saying Microsoft is the devil).
I ask because Christians who continuely view negative events as "being attacked" scare me. Its like seeing a boogeyman around every corner. Cancer and Satan? Pretty soon we may have to find the person who is cursing us...
Edited by - writerdad on 07/01/2002 10:54:45 PM
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markus
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/1/2002 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | You raise some very interesting issues in your post, Writerdad. Whilst, I guess, no one can know for sure, I feel it most unlikely that the devil would actually find any benefit in attacking anyone in such a manner as to cause serious illness.
The devil has only one principle aim, and that is to distance us from God so much that we don't see God, turn away from God, blame God, doubt his existence, and so on. He certainly does not need to hurt us to achieve that, in fact, often he can achieve his purpose with an entirely different approach.
Perhaps the most common approach by the devil is to plant temptations and thoughts in our minds. How often do you find thoughts appear as if from nowhere in your mind, especially regarding temptations. When one is struggling to avoid doing something one wants to avoid, how often one's mind is filled with a little voice saying, "once more won't hurt," or "just a little bit won't hurt," or "I don't really have time to go to church today," or I must do the housework before I read the bible" or "God knows I can't really help it". Where do these little "justifications" come from? But we know we are not unique in these temptations because even Paul openly asks why does he do those things that he does not wish to do, and avoids doing those things that he would want to do?
But that is not all. Satan has a much bigger plan than that. If one looks at the structure of the richer nations, they are built upon an illusion of material well-being and consumption. We live in a society where we are led to believe we are protected by our law enforcement and judicial systems, we trust our health and welfare systems, we have all our basic needs provided without a second thought. We are surrounded by an overload of cheap entertainment. It seems there is not a moment of silence anywhere, anymore, to be alone with oneself. Most people also seems to be either unemployed or suffering burnt-out at work.
This whole structure is designed to make people believe they are happy within their society and not to feel a need for, or have time for, God in their lives. Those that "have" don't need God, and those living in the same society that "don't have" feel they "should have" and are just filled with resentment and frustration against those that "have" and don't share. And the devil just laughs at the chaos he causes. What a weapon!
Secondly, we need to remember that many diseases and accidents are the result of our overall lifestyle - we have no need to blame the devil for our neglect of our own bodies (e.g. smoking). It was man's decision to build cars that go fast enough to kill (to enable society to provide material growth and comfort) - that is understandable, but we should not then blame God or the devil if we personally become one of the resulting tragedies that we know are going to occur on the roads. We all accept the risk provided it is maintained at an "acceptable level"!
The issue of suffering and injustice in this world is a huge one with few solid answers!
Markus
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/1/2002 8:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, Markus, for you response. That is an avenue I have been mulling over. It would seem to me that Satan would much prefer the mundane, the simple, the things we think originate with us, rather than "attacking" us. Logically, it would seem God would be more inclined to "strike" us, if one was going to go that route, simply because it might drive a person to their knees.
Let's, for instance, suppose Doc is under attack from Satan and Satan caused his disease. Didn't work too well. I would think Satan would be a little smarter than that and know Doc's character enough to know that wouldn't get him. Anyway, thanks for your excellant comments.
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/2/2002 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear writerdad and Keith,
Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause." – NLT
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' – Young’s
And the LORD God planted all sorts of trees in the garden--beautiful trees that produced delicious fruit. At the center of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. – NLT
and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Young’s
TIM: I do not know about you, however, this can really mess with my theology, what do you think? I mean, I am told God helps me, helps me to destroy the works of the demons; I believe this is true. I see a different story unfolding in Job though, than what I know is true; both of these truths must compliment one another some how, though they seem to contradict one another, but how?
Now where did evil come from, it very much appears to me that God is the source of such knowledge! Although, I believe there is no evil in God, how do I reconcile this?
I have some ideas myself, however, I am just wondering what you think, about these things I am suggesting.
God’s Love,
Tim
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/2/2002 11:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Tim: I am not really sure what you are asking (though I do have a clue). I would say it depends on what type of theology you believe in. It would seem that you are trying to understand how God could allow Job to be tested and if God is actually responsible for the evil that is coming upon him. Again, it would depend on your theology. If you take a view such as Calvinism where God predestines everything then you are going to encounter problems.
From my own view, I do not believe God is responsible because I believe, in making us truly free will individuals he has created the possibility of evil, not the actual evil. An example might help: As a parent, one day, my child will turn 16 and want to drive. In giving my car keys to her, I trust she will do her best. But it is conceivable that she might go out and kill someone. Am I responsible? No, but I have created the possibility by giving my car keys to my child. Such is similiar with God. Is that the area you are in?
Anyway, I hope some of those who believe Doc and his church are being "attacked" might address the questions I raised...
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 7/2/2002 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Dad said:
quote:
With Doc being prayed for and all (and the prayer being answered, thank goodness), with all the "rhetoric" (using the term in the best possible light) comes this thought or question:
Is a person "attacked" because they get cancer? And if not always, why would one assume one is? Is a church attacked just because they are going through hard times? How does one know one is being attacked? Is there any kind of independant way of knowing (say biblically) that one is being attack or is mainly a "the Lord let me know" type of thing?
Interesting question. I would ask the same thing about "answered prayer" You seemed to say that the prayer was answered, meaning Doc was ok. How do you know that Doc's being ok is answered prayer? Isn't that the same type of presumption about a state of affairs as what you are saying dubbing cancer as demonic attacks? This is not to say that I disagree with the essence of your issue (ie the possible oversimplification of ambiguous situations) Actually, I would agree a lot with the topic you address. What this IS to say is that, the issue is not only one that deals with what constitutes demonic influences and effect...but also with what "answered prayer" means in the SAME ambiguous context.
To Doc (and others) credit, I believe what they would say is that they are operating de facto by the worldview ideas of Jesus and Paul. Jesus seemed to think that many sicknesses were not just plain run of the mill illnesses but in some real way, instrumentation of Satan. It's obvious that Paul interpreted some of the troubles of his journies DIRECTLY to being opposed by Satan. Since Jesus (who is the Son of God) held this view and lived by it...AND gave indications that he came to oppose the "works of Satan", then it would be reasonable to, at least in some cases, be open to the possibility of something being demonically caused. As far as what would give one clue to when this was occurring, I can only think of the things (coincidentally mentioned in Doc's great sermon):
1) High level of "bad" things occuring, at such a rate to be viewed as "too intense to be just coincidence"
2) Spiritual discernment (via whatever means) seems to lead in that direction
Breaking it down. IF you have a bunch of bad stuff going wrong around you that seems to break a reasonable law of averages...AND...God seems to be motivating lots of people to prayer about certain issues or demonic activity...THEN supposedly could reasonably be open to the possibility that Satan is attacking...or something like that. This is generally what I see many people do. But they do this with prayer too. If you have a bunch of GOOD stuff happening to you that seems to break a reasonable law of averages...AND...you just had happened to PRAY about these things...THEN supposedly you could reasonably be open to the possibility that God "answered" your prayer. To me, these essentially seem to be the same animal. But I do notice that not so many people have problems with the PRAYER thing than with the DEMONIC OPPRESSION thing. Wonder why? Bias against demons, maybe? Who knows?
So, taking this into consideration, how do you know our prayer was "answered", and what do you mean by that?
Just thinkin',
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geej
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 7/2/2002 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad
As an absolute bonafide skeptic, I would say that discernment is indeed tricky on these matters. I don't think Greg automatically attributes every bad thing as a spiritual attack. However, when an extraordinary number of people are having weird things happen and when those are confirmed through prayer, words, scripture reading etc, the odds increase that it could be deemed a spiritual attack. In the past month, I've felt as though I've been under some attack...very freaky dreams whose subjects are things that would get me to leave our church if they really happened...all three of my dogs having very pricy health problems (two of them don't have any cause and the only thing that has worked is prayer - the vet is very perplexed and can't find anything wrong with either.)...my finances suddenly exploding in my face...several other things going wrong all culminating in the past couple of weeks...doubting things I've never once doubted before (ie: career, direction etc.). (I'm being hit in my WEAKEST spots - right where I live)
These are not things I'm listing to say my life sucks; it doesn't; I have been and believe I will continue to be blessed in many ways. It is just highly out of the ordinary that as my relationship with God grows and as I get more involved in my church and my small group and prayer and giving to the church, that more and more fluky/freaky things have happened.
Does every bad thing mean a spiritual attack? Most likely not. Life happens. But that does not mean that spiritual attacks don't happen. It seems as though if you surround yourself with people who are in a strong covenental relationship with Christ and if you are too, you'll eventually be able to tell the difference.
Geej
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/3/2002 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks writerdad for your response, I am not a Calvinist, so the above passages, do not mess with me from that perspective.
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/3/2002 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | |
I believe the enemy causes us trouble because the bible says so, and because I have personally experienced evil supernatural phenomenon. However, as in all things, we need balance. I agree that we can’t always know for certain the reason for our trials. We live in ambiguity. We try to abide in the Lord, and resist the enemy.
Lately I have been praying, reading, and trying to follow God’s will. I have taken a teenager into my home who was kicked out his of his own. I have volunteered quite a bit of my time to the Lord in ministry. I have loved my family, and worked hard. I have tried to keep up in my studies. I have given money to the church. I have driven back and forth to the hospital numerous times in the last week, even though I couldn’t spare the time, so that my boy could be by his girlfriend’s bedside. We brought meals for her family, and gifts, and encouragement. But maybe my heart, and my acts are as filthy rags and the Lord has no need of my ‘works’. Maybe he is the one who stands in my path at every turn. I am overwhelmed, I am behind, and mostly I am discouraged. So many things have gone wrong, taken to long, or not panned out, I wish it were a conspiracy, so that I could make some sense of it. I have been unappreciated, judged, and alone for some time. I have had so many things go wrong, I can’t believe it.
I asked my son to pray for me yesterday, and the first words out his mouth were, be thankful even in the midst of trials.
I am going out of town today for a short holiday. However I will have to work on my studies every spare minute during that time. Sometime this morning during all the packing and organizing I will have to invite a police officer into my home and file a report about the $988.01 that someone stole from my checking account last week.
Is it chance? Is it the flesh? Is it the enemy?
Or is God’s kickin’ my can all over the place?
I praise God, for his love and his faithfulness, I know that in him I am strong, and that in him I can find peace. He loves me like no other.
-S
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/3/2002 4:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually, Mephi, I don't assume their prayers were answered (at least not in a healing way). From my own viewpoint I believe the miracles God usually does are inside, the changing of the heart, etc. I don't believe miracles (such as healings) are usual, else they wouldn't be called miracles.
My point is simply that labeling diseases "attacks" from Satan when one has no true evidence of such a thing is dangerous. It goes along with Lewis' of the dangers of giving Satan both too much or too little power. I would add that while both Paul and Satan seem (and I would emphasise seem) to view some diseases as demonic, that certainly wasn't their overall view of the subject. Paul, for instance, simply Timothy to use wine for a stomach ailment without any mention of anything else. It would seem if all disease for such, more exorcising would be involved.
One other note: you mention "move people to prayer." Very subjective. That is the entire point of what I am addressing. I know people who feel God moves them to prayer when they get up in the morning.
Prayer, to me, is a method of communicating with God. To view it as more, sometimes to me, goes beyond what scripture dictates. Harold
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brandi
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 118
| Posted 7/3/2002 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I praise God, for his love and his faithfulness, I know that in him I am strong, and that in him I can find peace. He loves me like no other
Dear Springs:
Regardless of where the trouble comes from we can be assured our victory comes from the Lord! I said a prayer for you as I read your post. I pray that you rest in a peace that passes all understanding even while treading through the troubled waters.
Psalm 121:1 "I lift up my eyes toward the mountains; whence shall help come to me? My help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth."
I pray you find rest during your short holiday!
~Brandi~
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/3/2002 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs: without totally knowing your situation I offer this very fallible introspective thought: one of my problems is expectation. Is what I expect life to be what it should be or am I expecting too much from it? Do I expect life to be easy, or do I simply accept as it is? From my perspective Christians get discouraged and depressed (and others as well) because they expect more from God than he has promised. This is esprecially true here in america where we have been tainted by the "money" gospel.
I do not feel "let" much by God, nor do I feel that I often have a word from the Lord, but let me offer this. I am not saying its from God or not, only that I thought it was a very wise thought.
Once in church we were in church I was worshipping God and singing the song "All in ALL. The chorus goes "Jesus Lamb of God, Holy is your Name." And as I was singing this verse (I was in a Penecostal Church and several people were at the altar claiming "victory" over something). And I felt that God was saying this: "if all I did was die for you, was it enough?" Again, I am not saying God gave me that, or I just thought of it. But I have kept that with me and, whenever I think God doesn't love me or isn't taking care of me, I think of that. Is God faithful? I don't ask that. I say he was faithful. And thats enough.
We are called to be conformed into the image of Christ. I don't honestly believe God promises us anything else. Harold
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churchmouse522
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 7/3/2002 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Blessings Springs. Big time blessings on you and your family.
Mouse
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/3/2002 1:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
I'll tell you something, man. I really know NOTHING about prayer--how it works and why it seems to only work sometimes, and if everything that happens, for the good and bad, is necessarily an answer to or lack thereof of prayer.
I have SUCH a hard time considering statements like so-and-son was saved in the 911 disaster, but the other folks who died were apparently not saved.
Oh, this is old hat, I know, but I relate with your questioning the concept of so many good things happening as a so-called result of prayer as being such. It really is a mind-wracking disaster for me, I'll tell you. But I serve Him regardles, because He's worth it. Plain and simple. That will, and must, be what gets me through it all and in all that I don't understand about prayer.
Starkman
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 7/4/2002 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | |
1 [Springs] loves you, O Lord, [her] strength. 2 The Lord is [her] rock, [her] fortress, and [her] deliverer, [her] God, [her] rock in whom [she] takes refuge, [her] shield, and the horn of [her] salvation, [her] stronghold. 3 [She} calls upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised, so [she] shall be saved from [her] enemies. 4 The cords of death encompassed [her]; the torrents of perdition assailed [her]; 5 the cords of Sheol entangled [her]; the snares of death confronted [her]. 6 In [her] distress [she] called upon the Lord; to [her] God [she] cried for help. From His temple he heard [her] voice, and [her] cry to Him reached His ears. 7 Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations also of the mountains trembled and quaked, because He was angry. 8 Smoke went up from His nostrils, and devouring fire from His mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from Him. 9 He bowed the heavens, and came down; thick darkness was under His feet. 10 He rode on a cherub, and flew; He came swiftly upon the wings of the wind. 11 He made darkness his covering around Him, His canopy thick clouds dark with water. 12 Out of the brightness before Him there broke through His clouds hailstones and coals of fire. 13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Most High uttered His voice. F15 14 And He sent out His arrows, and scattered them; He flashed forth lightnings, and routed them. 15 Then the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were laid bare at Your rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of Your nostrils. 16 He reached down from on high, He took [springs]; He drew [[her] out of mighty waters. 17 He delivered [her] from [her] strong enemy, and from those who hated [her]; for they were too mighty for [her]. 18 They confronted [her] in the day of [her] calamity; but the Lord was [her] support. 19 He brought [her] out into a broad place; He delivered [her], because He delighted in [her].
20 The Lord rewarded [Springs] according to [her] righteousness; according to the cleanness of [her] hands he recompensed [her]. 21 For [she] has kept the ways of the Lord, and has not wickedly departed from [her] God. 22 For all His ordinances were before [her], and His statutes [she] did not put away. 23 [Springs] was blameless before Him, and [she] kept [herself] from guilt. 24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed [her] according to [her] righteousness, according to the cleanness of [her] hands in His sight. 25 With the loyal You show Yourself loyal; with the blameless You show yourself blameless; 26 with the pure You show yourself pure; and with the crooked You show yourself perverse. 27 For You deliver a humble people, but the haughty eyes You bring down. 28 It is You who light [Springs'] lamp; The Lord, [her] God, lights up [her] darkness.
29 By You [Springs] can crush a troop, and by [her] God [she] can leap over a wall. 30 This God—His way is perfect; the promise of the Lord proves true; He is a shield for all who take refuge in Him. 31 For who is God except the Lord? And who is a Rock besides our God?— 32 the God who girded [Springs] with strength, and made [her] way safe. 33 He made [her] feet like the feet of a deer, and set [her] secure on the heights. 34 He trains [her] hands for war, so that [her] arms can bend a bow of bronze. 35 You have given [Springs] the shield of Your salvation, and Your right hand has supported [her]; your help F16 has made [her] great. 36 You gave [her] a wide place for [the] steps under [her], and [her] feet did not slip...46 The Lord lives! Blessed be [our] Rock, and exalted be the God of [our] salvation!!
In Him, with love,
pouring
personalized version Psalm 18 ...
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me , so that they may be one, as we are one. | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/4/2002 8:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Pouring: I asked a question. I would appreciate that THE QUESTION
ASKED BE ADDRESSED. Otherwise, post somewhere else. This happens ALL
THE TIME here. I posted a question that I wanted a dialogue on. While I appreciate everyone's concern for Springs, please post elsewhere for that. This is my post...
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pouringagape
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 7/4/2002 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Pouring: I asked a question. I would appreciate that THE QUESTION
ASKED BE ADDRESSED. Otherwise, post somewhere else. This happens ALL
THE TIME here. I posted a question that I wanted a dialogue on. While I appreciate everyone's concern for Springs, please post elsewhere for that. This is my post...
Ok, well, I believe spiritual attacks happen. They happen to
people we love. They may even happen to you. When they do, I hope
you have people who care enough to fight with you...even hold you up
if you need them to.
I wonder what it is about other posts that bother you? Would it be possible to overlook them for the sake of another? Maybe you could relax and go watch some fireworks instead of creating them.
Sorry, I'll stay off your thread.
peace,
pouring
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me , so that they may be one, as we are one.
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/4/2002 10:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Writerdad and Pouringagape
One of the most fascinating and illuminating characteristics of us humans is the different ways in which we can react and express our opinions about various subjects. If we can but keep an open and receptive mind, we can usually find something of great value in everything that is written. Although Writerdad is seeking and anticipating a more directly expressed dialogue ABOUT the topic, can we not also see that Spring and Pouringagape are presenting us with a front row seat to watch this topic being expressed in living reality?
I actually found PouringAgape’s response very stimulating and inspirational. When we consider spiritual attack, we should also consider what Satan is trying to achieve. We should remember that Satan is far above our intellect and is capable of foreseeing the likely outcome of any action that he would take. For example, in Greg’s case, would he not have been able to foresee the prayer that it would generate and the closing and strengthening of Christian ranks that would inevitably follow? Has that not only defeated any possible gain by Satan, and even worked to his entire disadvantage? Why would he shoot himself in his own foot?
On the other hand, it sounds as though Springs has met much resistance that has steadily worn her down through isolation from support from fellow Christians (I am only supposing here). This would make absolute sense from Satan’s viewpoint. Only too often, obstacles only begin to appear as soon as we try to do God’s own work. The more we try to do, the more the obstacles start to appear and if we are not able to share our burden with others we are gradually worn out by the ceaseless effort to overcome, seemingly, on our own. Often it seems God has just popped out right at the very moment we need Him most!
Pouringagape’s (lovely name) response is a live example of how we should, and can, overcome possible spiritual attack. The same response given by Pouringagape could easily be put into a more objective format, and would be seen to be very relevant to Writerdad’s original questions of “How does one know one is being attacked?” and “Why would one want to roar at the devil.”
I see Pouringagape’s response telling us at least these things:
- That the possibility of spiritual attack really does exist
- One must remain strong in one’s faith in God, regardless of setbacks
- God will support and remain faithful to those who remain faithful to God
- One should also seek encouragement and strength through other Christians rather than try to fight back at the devil
- Prayer and the bible can provide us with comfort, strength, direction and explanation, when we are unsure.
Perhaps the greatest message in this posting is that we should always believe on Christ in all things. He promises us tribulations and difficulties, so we shouldn’t be surprised when they come. He tells us where to turn to for strength, but He does not promise us instant relief. But He does promise us that, whilst in faith, we will not be pushed beyond what we can endure.
Maybe, Writerdad, there is more in answer to your questions in Pouringagape’s posting than you have seen so far.
And just maybe, one of the reasons why you were encouraged to start this thread was for Springs to receive some encouragement from others and insight into her own situation – in which case you have not only found input to your own questions, but you have indirectly helped others, too – what a reward for you 
And thank you, Pouringagape for the kindness that shines from your heart.
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/05/2002 03:02:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Shine
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 7/5/2002 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Beautifully said Markus.
I would also like to add that Satan is a master at sowing into the people's hearts discontentment about who they are and what God has called them to do. This is the biggest problem in the body of Christ. Jesus wants unity among the body and we can see how disjointed we all can become at times. What we need to focus on is that Jesus died for all of our sins and that we are more than conquerors and to remain strong and endure whatever we have to endure through our love for one another. And, by doing so we need to expose the enemy, and by exposing the lie from the enemy we can live in truth and harmony.
The quote that comes to mind is this from Romans 8:37-39:
"But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, not life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor heights or depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I know it is easier said than done but we need to keep movng forward to the goal of unity because, it is with this love that we can remain strong!
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/7/2002 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Disunity and a tool of Satan for the expression of an honest opinion?! There is definitely more comic relief from life than I ever thought possible. Oh well, apparently nothing else is coming from this post, so the humor is welcome release...
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/7/2002 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/7/2002 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad: asked a question. I would appreciate that THE QUESTION ASKED BE ADDRESSED. Otherwise, post somewhere else. This happens ALL THE TIME here. I posted a question that I wanted a dialogue on. While I appreciate everyone's concern for Springs, please post elsewhere for that. This is my post...
Doc: Dang dude, you sho can git a bit ornery. chill my man. Poor springs was hurt'n. Ain't no thing just to pass a few chips her way. Now we all gotta console poor Pouringagape whose probably feeling unappreciated right about now. hang tight girl. Writerdad just gets fussy now and then.
I have NO idea why I'm talking in a southern voice, its just how I'm hearing myself tonight.
Okay, now onto the SERiOUS QUESTION posed before us by WRITERDAD on HIS POST.
Writerdad My point is simply that labeling diseases "attacks" from Satan when one has no true evidence of such a thing is dangerous. It goes along with Lewis' of the dangers of giving Satan both too much or too little power. I would add that while both Paul and Satan seem (and I would emphasise seem) to view some diseases as demonic, that certainly wasn't their overall view of the subject.
Doc: I think you meant to refer to Jesus when you said "Satan" in your quote. Minor slip up and I hate to be picky. But sometimes slight differences can be rather major. I get the two confused all the times myself. Mormon friends say its because they were once brothers, but I doubt that.
Okay, that being said – is it not significant that over half the times Jesus confronts sickness and diseases he or the gospel authors diagnosis it as coming from Satan and/or a demon? And the manner in which they diagnoses it presuppose that this is not exceptional. In fact, the very word used for "disease" in the Gospels literally means "flogging". As I argue in God at War, I think Jesus assumed that EVERY disease or illness was directly or at least indirectly the result of spiritual bondage. Peter summarized Jesus’ ministry this way:
Acts 10:38 God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power…he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil,for God was with him.
The passage assumes that sickness is a form of oppression.
SO, I think I am safe in to ALWAYS shoot in the direction of the enemy when confronting any physical or emotional or psychological problem. I don’t KNOW that he is behind it. But as I see it, Jesus said this is where our default setting should be located.
Also, there are times – rare perhaps with us westerners, but times nonetheless – when the Spirit of God TELLS US we’re under attack. Other times this will be confirmed by prophetic words that demonstrate their authenticity by naming things the individual knows nothing about. Still other times one can simply discern that something supernatural is going on because what’s going on defies natural explanation.
In this last three weeks ALL THREE have happened to me.
So I feel I’m warranted to announce – "Church, there is an attack going on."
In fact, it seems to me that, if we believe the enemy is a roaring lion, SEEKING whom he may devour, we should ASSUME that he will be attacking us with whatever he’s got available. And, we should assume that, there more damage we do to his kingdom, the bigger the bounty on our head, so the more he will make available to come at us with.
And this shouldn’t scar us. Rather, the first thing Jesus said about the church is that it would STORM THE GATES OF HELL and WIN. We should ROAR all the time. Our calling is to be looking for him and storming his fortress whereever we find it. The last thing we should want is to leave him alone. Dang, he’s the "god of this word" (2 Cor 4:4) and OUR GOD wants it BACK!!!!
Just my opinion.
Springs: "I have had so many things go wrong, I can’t believe it."
Doc: I hear ya girl. Sometimes things sure does BITE. You got some good advice above, and I don’t want to tick Dad off more by adding to it. So I’ll just say, we love you girl.  And remember, The sun will come out tomorrow. Always look on the bright side of life. Fiddly dee Rett, tomorrows another day. Oh what a dang beautiful morning. "Vallie high." " Somewhere over the rainbow, girl, theres something or other… some witch or munck’n dudes with faces twisted like mine now and they can't dance worth jack…" I don’t recall for sure… but chip chip, cheerio hoe, it’ll be over soon and then its GLORY.
Mean time, lets kick us some DEVIL TAIL
Later
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/7/2002 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Another bible reference by Paul also confirms the work of unfriendly forces:
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. Eph 6:11-12
But this is not meant to provide us with an excuse for our own behaviour. We are surely not meant to duck out from our own responsibilities and claim our own innocence by laying the blame squarely on Satan. If so, then Judas Iscariot is also innocent, as the Bible states that Satan entered him.
I believe Satan works in two main areas. The first is to plant temptations in our way that we unable to resist until we have the strength of Jesus within us. Secondly, he provides distractions and deviations that make us too busy to find God, doubtful of God's existence, accusatory towards God, and builds our own self-centredness.
But I do not think we can claim all evil or misfortune is a spiritual attack. For example, I see people praying for their team to win a sporting event. If their team happens to win, does that mean their prayers were answered and that their opponents suffered a spiritual attack?
If my house is broken into, is that a spiritual attack on me, or just the sin working within someone else?
If we consider mass disasters, especially from natural causes, are these spiritual and deliberate in nature?
I think the only sure answer is ,"maybe, maybe not".
In other words, just like sheep, we have no idea indiviually where we really are or where to go, and we have only one defence, and that is to cling to Jesus with all one's strength!
Markus
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/8/2002 1:07 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm really not trying to tick Writerdad off...I just don't start new threads(some inner fear or something that no one will respond)
Springs,
You are right about the ambiguity...it could even be all those things combined. I had that happen to me once. A spiritual attack was confirmed through prophesy in a detailed amazing way, but I was also contributing issues of my own that were making me very vulnerable...so I like when Doc says...shoot in all directions, and also how you talked about keeping a balanced perspective.
I just wanted to add though that I can see why Satan would WANT to mess with you...you have a powerful and effective prayer ministry. I know that first hand because you prayed for me during the lowest point in my life at the altar at WHC.If I hadn't had the prayer support I had from WHC and Godly friends in my life, I honestly, honestly don't know if I would have made it through.
I just want you to know that I am praying for you. You are a blessing through your ministry, through your posts on this board, and to a child that is out on his own.
I know you aren't looking for kudos here...but before my husband had even met you, and he didn't even know you were the one who prayed with me...said that he sensed what a powerful prayer minister you are. Praise the Lord for what he is doing through you!
May Jesus bless you and we'll be doing some Satan butt kick'in on behalf of you!
Love Shell
Edited by - shell on 07/08/2002 6:12:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/8/2002 7:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Greetings all!
The thread wrecker returns!
I'm doing much better now, and I thank you all for your kinds words.
I don’t 'spose you’ll let me get away with, “the devil made me do it?!” 
I tried to get on and respond on Sunday, but my computer wouldn’t connect to the Internet. Par for the course. It’s so typical. It was gremlins, I tell you. Seriously. They live with me here. They call my computer the “crappy computer”, yet they network it to their computers to play games and then run off and leave me all networked up with nowhere to go.
Writerdad,
Thanks for breaking your own rule, of keeping threads on track, and sharing the wisdom of your experience. As a matter of course, I would say I err on the side of holding too few expectations, but I will admit that discouragement originates in the flesh, not in the spirit. I, like you, upon receiving a word from the Lord, sometimes, am not sure if it was he. I hold onto the word like you have, and if it was him, it is confirmed in other ways. I hope to add a ‘valid, contributory, post’ soon, in response to your questions.
Geej,
I hope things are going better for you too. I agree with you that the more you and your community abide in Christ the more able you are to discern the schemes of the enemy.
Brandi & Mouse & Pouringagape,
Thanks for the encouragement and prayer.
Markus,
Nice contributions. I think you have a pretty balanced understanding. You are right about society, and personal lifestyles. But I do think Satan can and does use sickness to “kill, steal, and destroy.” Serious illness and physical debilitation can make or break a faith. The effects of ill health on individuals vary as much as the individuals themselves. Some find refuge in the Lord, some curse him and die. But you are right on when you describe the first line of offense as being in the mind, with temptation and promptings from the enemy. Our first and best defense against the enemy is to “take every thought captive to Christ.”
Shell,
I can’t thank you enough for your kind words. I am so thankful that God has been able to use me to minister his love and truth to those in need. You have blessed me and encouraged me more than you can know. I’ll be thanking the Lord for you tonight.
Doc,
Thanks,
Yippee Kye yea …
Springs
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