 |
| 
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/3/2002 2:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause." – NLT
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' – Young’s
And the LORD God planted all sorts of trees in the garden--beautiful trees that produced delicious fruit. At the center of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. – NLT
and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Young’s
TIM: "Job maintained his integrity, even though Satan persuaded the LORD to harm Job without cause," and "The LORD God planted or placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil, at the center of the garden."
The idea that Satan can persuade the LORD to harm and God is the source of evils’ entrance is challenging for me. What do you think? That is, I have reconciled these in my mind somewhat, and how do you, or have you ever, considered these challenging.
God’s Love,
Tim
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/4/2002 1:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tim,
I am not so sure of what I am talking about here, but here goes!
I don't think it was actually God that directly harmed Job. Nor was He persuaded against His own better judgement. God allowed Satan to test Job's faith, which Satan claimed was only due to God's good treatment towards Job. God gave permission to Satan, but with restrictive limitations as to how far Satan could go.
The interesting thing here is the evidence it presents that Satan is already under God's control (scary, huh?).But I see some consolation in this, too. I believe satan does only have a limited range of impact on us. He is allowed to tempt and test us to his heart's content - but can he force us against our own will to do evil? I don't think so. This evidences to me that we also have the same choice of ways between good and evil that Satan himself was also endowed with. He was a great angel, who chose his own course.
I always try to evaluate things in terms of the world to come rather than the present world, where such things are difficult to comprehend and become distorted by our this-worldly values of justice, fairplay, etc.
It is clear to me (i.e. only my opinion!) that God wants and expects us not only to learn what good and evil mean, but to also make a choice regarding to whom we wish to commit ourselves - God or Satan.
Satan is very good at providing the temptation, but it is our own leaning towards sin that drags us towards it, and it is our own choice to grasp it. I.e. there is no sin in the temptation itself, only in the acceptance of it.
The process of sin is an interesting one. It is possible to consider it so that all things come from God and flow through our bodies. And it is how our hearts and minds contaminate God's gifts as they flow through us that makes our output so sinful. For example, love. God is the source of all love, and we should be like hoses connected to God's love tender, spraying his love over all the people we encounter and over all His creation. But somehow we seem to contaminate that love as it passes through us such that is often emerges as brackish, contorted, and often poisonous, to those very persons we are trying to love.
Although Satan may freely whip up our propensity towards sinning, even to the extent that we destroy one another, I do not think he is allowed to destroy us directly himself. He can easily leads us towards self-destruction (smoking, diet, drugs, alcohol, etc) and he can distract our attention away from God.
The end result is that we are left accounting to God for how we alone, with no one else to blame, have allowed ourselves to react to Satan's work - and ultimately whether our allegiance has been with God or with Satan.
If God permits evil to exist, then there is a good reason for it. But God is in control of it, of that much at least I think we must be certain....
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/04/2002 06:12:44 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/6/2002 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | As I understand it, the OLDER portions of the OT commonly depict the wind of God as repsonsible for both good and bad -- just think about good and bad weather and "rain falling on the just and the unjust." They can do that BECAUSE it was not their task to give any details of the mechanics. In the oldest, even, things are really vague.
(As someone pointed out on another thread, that is not to say that those who were inspired lacked truth, or wisdom in the matter; they only had a broad brush to paint with.)
So, my hunch is that those reading it THEN (differently from hw we might choose to do it now, or not...) would recognize in that telling that God IS INCHARGE. And that is really, truly saying something.
The scandle only happens when we read it "anachronistically" (mixing up time: our era for theirs.) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/7/2002 4:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey back at ya Keith and PotOnWheel,
Keith: God is in control…of that much at least I think we must be certain....
PotOnWheel: …God IS INCHARGE…that is really, truly saying something.
Keith: I do not think it was actually Control, who directly harmed Job. Nor was INCHARGE, persuaded against His own better judgement. Control, allowed Satan to test Job's faith, which Satan claimed, was only due to INCHARGE’s good treatment towards Job. Control gave permission to Satan, but with restrictive limitations as to how far Satan could go.
The following is my paraphrase of your comments Keith, which you should already know; I always value tremendously, high.
THE EVIDENCE presented is that Satan is under God's control and has a limited impact, to tempt and test me - but he cannot force me to do evil. I have a choice between the ways of good and evil, which Satan himself was also endowed with, who chose his own course; Worthy Adversary.
I believe I should evaluate this in terms of the world to come, that is eternal life and the second death; rather than the present, where things are difficult to comprehend, by this-worldly, values of justice, fair play, etc. God expects evil to happen presently and for me to learn what good means, to make a choice, about that which I will commit myself - God or Satan.
God permits Satan to provide the temptation, and even with my own leaning toward sin, because of Adam’s choice, it is still my own choice to grasp it, to embrace temptation and sin. That is, there is no sin in the temptation itself, it is only in the desire to fulfill the temptation, which proves that sins nature is present in the heart of us all.
The process of sin is interesting; consider that all things come from God and flows through my body. The desire of my body contaminates the flow through me, and makes the flow sinful. God is the source of all love and like flowing water, I desire that my body be that hose connected to it, tenderly spraying it over all the people I encounter, over all of God’s creation. Although, I seem to contaminate this love, as it passes through my body, it emerges as brackish, contorted, and often poisonous, to the very people I care so dearly for and desire to embrace with God’s charm, love.
Satan easily leads me, toward the self-destructing distraction, of not loving God with all my being and others as myself. Although God permits Satan to play with my natural inclination toward sin, even to the extent that I may destroy another person or myself, Satan does not have the power, of destroying me directly, himself.
The end result is how I alone, am held accountable to God, with no one else to blame, for how I have allowed myself to react to Satan's work - and ultimately whether my allegiance has been with God or with Satan.
God permits evil to exist, and there is a good reason for it. God is also in control of evil, of that much I am certain...
God’s Love,
Tim
P.S. Keith, have I ever asked your before, if I might hang on every word you say, like an annoying little brother or something like that…Christ in you, the hope of Glory!
Edited by - Tim on 07/07/2002 10:00:13 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/7/2002 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!' – Young’s
In Num 22:22…the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him.
The word ‘Adversary’ in Num 22:22, is the same word used for Satan in the above passage; that is, I like Young’s attempt at a more literal translation, it reveals what I believe you are suggesting PotOnWheel, about ‘anachronistic’. I believe Young’s translation makes it appear more clearly, that the one who is withstanding God, is instigating or inciting permission from God, for his own swallowing up of Job undeservedly. That is, I believe it should more correctly say, "thou dost move against Me, to swallow him up for nought!" Therefore, I agree,
"…It was [not] actually God that directly harmed Job…God allowed [the Adversary] to test Job's faith…" – Keith
Thanks for your perspective, PotOnWheel; I appreciate your comments, as always.
God’s Love,
Tim
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:14 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|