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Is that by Victor Frankel, the holocaust survivor?

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Yes, it is. I thought of this book (which I hadn't read since college) after reading your post, Semeia:

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therefore the meaning of life has to do with BEING rather than DOING. That view gives the tortured baby as much meaning as those fortunate enough to be at a place to ponder the meaning of life.

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BJS wrote:

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That's a great idea, Trosie. I would really enjoy actually going through a book with everyone. It might help keep us on track (yeah, right. . .), and I think I would learn much!

Empiress, did Amazon.com not carry the book?

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Yeah! Brett and Miss E, reading a book together has been an idea that was tried before on this board but never seemed to go too far (at least for me). I am excited that we are going to get through the entire book together! I think I will learn much too.

I'm looking forward to this new thread! Miss E, maybe you could start it when you receive your book. Shall we discuss it chapter by chapter?
trosie






















"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown

Edited by - trosie on 01/31/2002 03:10:28 AM

Edited by - trosie on 01/31/2002 03:12:30 AM

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Doc: Glad to hear it. But some find the "automatic ticket" view of babies and the disabled to be more comforting. I have to agree, but don't think its true

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For clarification, I would like to say that I believe babies automatically do go to heaven. I think that aborted babies, still birth babies, and babies that die after birth ALL go to heaven because they are TOTALLY sinless. I've heard people refer to these little ones as being angels in heaven.

What offered me hope and encouragement was the idea that people can still choose after death (at least in some cases) I don't personally know a lot of people who hold to this view but I DO. It's the only way I can answer for myself what happens in extraordinary cases such as if a person was so hurt by their view of Christianity that they became atheist, or if a person was hurting so much and had been abused so severely that suicide seemed like the only answer. There are so MANY gray areas that this type of belief is the only one that makes sense to me. I was encouraged to know that scripture doesn't necessarily rule this out and that there are others, besides myself, who believe this way.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify myself
trosie

"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown

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If ANYONE gets to heaven risk-free, then there's no reason why EVERYONE couldn't get to heaven risk free

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I'm looking forward to this new thread! Miss E, maybe you could start it when you receive your book. Shall we discuss it chapter by chapter?

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Yeah, I'll start us out when I get the book. We can go chapter by chapter.

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This'll be good.

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

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I’m not being entirely sarcastic.

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Yo, Doc, no need to be sarcastac, eh? I was merely challenging my own beliefs for up to this point in my life I have always been led to believe babies go to heaven...

Peace,
trosie

"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown

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since you reject that "love must be chosen," you CAN'T explain the problem of evil by saying that if God's goal for creation involved love, he had to create people FREE. In other words, you can't use the "free will defense" to explain evil

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I have been pondering on this for a while and can now see how it is that EVERYONE (which would include babies) is given freewill. EVERYONE is given the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ (again this includes babies.) The verse that keeps coming to my mind that confirms this is:

Romans 3:23 "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

The KEY word is ALL with NO exceptions.

What I personally appreciate so much about this board is that it helps me to think deeper about what I believe and challenges what I hold to be truth. I have grown so much in participating on this web site. Thank you Doc and everyone else on this board for the dialogues!

In appreciation,
trosie











"Christians who excuse their own mediocrity with pious rationalizations seem guilty of not understanding the extent of God's call on their life."

Edited by - trosie on 02/13/2002 06:26:57 AM

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Do you really believe that all babies have "sinned and come short of the glory of God"? When? How? What about kids who die during childbirth? Or one week after birth? Or one week before birth?

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I find it difficult to ascribe sin to pre-born, or new born, babies. I've always taken the "everyone" of the verses you cite to refer to adults. But perhaps this is arbitrary on my part.

I have to insist that babies are not GUILTY of any PERSONAL sin, but perhaps they are sinners, in some sense, simply by virtue of being born in a fallen, warring race.

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Just for the record, I find it difficult to ascribe sin to pre-born or newborn babies too. However, if we are to say that love must be chosen by ALL (and include these babies as having this freewill), then it makes sense that they are a byproduct of this fallen world, thus inherit the sin nature of humanity even though they personally have not sinned. Since they share in the fallen human race they are enemies of God, as the bible states, in need of the saving grace bought by the blood of Jesus. This is the only way that I see we can say that these babies need to be given the freewill to choose. If they were free of the sin nature of humanity then there would be no reason for them to choose to accept or reject the gift of salvation.

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, I think we share the logic that love must be chosen, and thus that neither babies nor invalids incapable of making choices have an automatic ticket to heaven

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What I find so refreshing is that I have not personally known a lot of people who share the idea of post-mortem opportunity. I have felt like the minority on this belief because the people who I have discussed this topic with in the past have always been very cut and dry on the idea that one MUST accept Christ BEFORE death or they GO TO HELL! The only exception that they would give to this is the pre-born and newborn babies who they say automatically go to heaven.

What we have discussed here makes so much sense! If love must be chosen, it must be chosen by ALL. However, some are not able to choose while on earth thus are given the post-mortem opportunity to choose. This applies, I believe, to all those who are unable to choose due to the pain they are in (suicidal cases), or to those who have turned their back to Christianity due to their woundedness(which is the reason many I know are atheist), etc. I'm curious, do you agree with what I believe about the suicidal and wounded individuals having the opportunity to choose after (or at the time) of death or do you say post-mortem opportunity ONLY applies to babies and invalids incapable of making a choice?


Again, thanks for the dialogue because it has helped define what I believe!
trosie