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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/11/2002 9:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | For what its worth, heres two (of nine) arguments from a piece Paul Eddy and I wrote called "Apology for the Devil" (arguing for the reality of spirits(.
Argument From The Continuum of Creation
The third argument I would offer in support of the belief that spirits are real is the oldest, most venerable, and most popular argument for this belief in the western intellectual tradition. In essence the argument runs as follows:
Throughout all of nature we observe a continuum of life forms leading up to humans. There seem to be no major gaps in the gradation of levels of power, intelligence and personality between us and the lowest form of inorganic life.
Now if this much is true of life forms leading up to humans, the argument goes, why think it is not true of life forms leading up from humans? Why think the continuum stops with us?
According to this argument, it is irrational, counter-intuitive, and anthropo-centric to suppose that the continuum does stop with us. We should rather suppose that "above us" there is a continuum of life forms leading up to the One who is life itself. In traditional Christian thought this realm between us and God was conceived of as the domain of angels. It has been suggested that the preoccupation with the possibility of extra-terrestrial life forms in our own day is simply a secularized technological version of this same ancient intuition and process of reasoning.
It is difficult to dismiss this line of argumentation as outmoded, for a good deal of science is predicated on precisely the kind of logic this argument employs.
As Benedict Ashley notes.
[O]ne of the modes of creative thinking that has paid off richly in sci-ence…is extrapolation or pattern thinking. For example, Mendelejeff’s periodic table was based on symmetrical arrangement of known elements according to their properties, but it contained blanks. Eventually it was possible to fill in these blanks by the discovery of new elements. Again, the table of possible kinds of crystalline structures was first worked out mathematically from known types and the blanks were eventually all filled by new discoveries. Our evolutionary view of the world presents us with a great variety of kinds of primary units from atoms to the most complex of living forms. We are always looking for "missing links" to com-plete this pattern….
He then goes on to apply it to the argument at hand.
Therefore, when we discover that in our visible universe there is a type of organism, the human species, which introduces a wholly new principle of behavior, namely abstract, symbolically expressed, crea-tive thought, we naturally conjecture that the very limited exemplifi-cation of this type of life found only in the single human species can-not be the only one. If we also accept that the world has been cre-ated by a God who is an infinite intelligence, we are even more struck by the immense gap that lies between these two extremes of mental power, the human and the divine…
On this basis it can be argued that the supposition that there exists spiritual intelligence’s and powers that fill in the "gap" between us humans and the supreme intelligence and power is a rational supposition.
Some will of course respond to this argument by insisting that the continuum of life forms leading up to us is simply the result of chance evolution. There are no major "gaps" between us and life forms below us because we evolved step by step from them. And since we humans happen to be the most highly evolved form of the life on this planet it is unwar-ranted to try to postulate any continuum above us on this basis. In other words, while chance got us humans here by means of the ladder of evolution, there’s no reason to suppose that it leads anywhere beyond us.
Three things may be said. First, it must be conceded that this argument looses most of its force if one does not believe in a supreme intelligence, and thus does not see an immense gap between us and God. The reason-ableness of this argument admittedly depends a good deal on the reason-ableness of believing in God. But that is an issue that lies outside the scope of this work.
Secondly, the view that evolution has proceeded by means of purely natural chance processes has thus far proven difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate scientifically. The objection has no more force than does the purely naturalistic theory of evolution—which, to many of us, is close to zero.
Third, even if one holds that we evolved by chance, Ashely’s argument that it is reasonable to assume that we are not the only instance or kind of being in the cosmos that is like us yet stands. One would still be justified in attempting to extrapolate from human character-istics to look for other human-like forms of life, physical (as with extra-ter-restrials) and otherwise (as with angels).
A Trans-cultural Intuition
Perhaps because of the intuition regarding the continuous pattern of creation and/or perhaps because of some other distinct "religious sense," humans have from prehistoric times generally assumed the reality of spir-its who transcend our physical existence. Outside of post-Enlightenment western intellectual culture the belief in spirits is almost universal. Whether conceptualized as spirits of nature or as power animals (as in pri-mordial cultures), as helpful malã’ika or malicious Jinn (Islam) or as guardian angels or sinister demons (in Christianity), a belief in the reality of good and evil spirits has been one of the most pervasive commonalties of human culture throughout history.
Most frequently, and certainly in its most archaic forms, the belief in spir-its was combined with a belief in a highest god, and many times with a belief in a single Creator. Moreover, there has almost always been an awareness that these spirits can influence human affairs, for better or for worse, and that there is on some level conflict among these spirits which affects human life. Indeed, in most cultures this belief in spirits has not only been something people held to but something they experienced (see the following argument). In short, most culture’s throughout history have in one form or another embraced some version of the warfare worldview.
My fourth argument supporting the belief that spirits are real is that it is difficult to adequately account for the universality of this belief and the remarkable commonalties which are found amidst otherwise disparate cultures regarding the contents of this belief unless we suppose that these different cultures are intuiting and experiencing something real.
This doesn’t of course prove that the spirits are real. But it does show that, bar-ring any convincing evidence to the contrary, the belief that spirits are real is rational, the protestations of secularized western academics not with-standing.
If most of the world’s population claims to see something which certain western intellectuals are unable to see, perhaps its the spiritual vision of secularized westerners that is faulty, not the perception of the rest of the world. At the very least, this observation should expose the arbitrariness and narrowness of those who simply assume that things like angels, demons and the Devil amount to nothing more than pieces of an ancient superstitious mind set.
For what its worth. Think about it.
Protected from the Evil One...
Greg
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 2/11/2002 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc said:
quote:
Protected from the Evil One
Are you, now? Hmmm... Better check that idea of divine providence you got there, Doc. 
Love,
The Consistency Zealot aka  | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 2/11/2002 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | might-be-don:
I have been a very long time in a church culture that views demons as personal "beings". My fear is that if we allow these demons ( Satan at the top of the list ) to exist as abstractions ( although very 'real' ones ), that doesn't leave us very far from God as abstraction. I'm pretty sure I don't want to say that, but what would prevent that leap?
Iconoclast:
I don't want to say that either. I would say that the incarnation is clear and convincing evidence that God is not an abstraction. Jesus was clearly a literal being in the sense that we understand literal beings. Even without Jesus though it is pretty clear in the old testament that God is quite different from these other gods.
So, we know ourselves as literal beings and we know God as a literal being. This we know. What I really want to say in all of this is not that spirits are not real but rather that they are significantly different in kind from us and from God. Very different. As different as animals are from us.
I think the metaphor of a literal being is a good mapping for these agents. So good that it leads us to assume that they are really literal beings in the full sense that we understand literal beings: Us and God.
Doc: I agree with you Icon. None of this "devil made me do it" stuff, or "devil made YOU do it."
Iconoclast: Do you agree that a full "warfare" metaphor entails some mappings that you would disagree with?
Doc: But I would add, the warfare worldview is useful for a) theodicy purposes (something your Winkian ‘abstraction" perspective doesn’t allow.
Iconoclast: What purposes? A core piece of my argument is that the model of "Satan is really us" provides all the metaphorical mappings you want to have in the Warfare stuff – minus the mappings you don’t want: “we should kill the enemy and any enemy sympathizer” – AND ADDS mappings that are very useful and motivational: I can directly defeat Satan by focusing my energy on improving my behavior, my relationships and my spiritual life without having to be the policeman of my brothers behavior. I can directly defeat Satan by focusing energy in my workplace on doing good work for my customers and by helping the organization to become a more healthy place to work. Everything I do as long as I am walking in the light is right here and right now defeating Satan. Everything I do can now become “Kingdom Work”. Ever read “The Practice of the Presence of God”?
Doc: b) for spiritual warfare purposes. Seeing gods and demons as real motives praying against them… and that helps get rid of them. Exorcism, my man, exorcism. Its real, its universal, and its efficacious.
Iconoclast: The "Satan is really us" metaphor I believe allows us to pray more specifically - with more visualizations - and is more motivational to do so. Also, as far as I can tell this exorcism stuff is just reasonably good Gestalt therapy and other forms of NLP techniques; techniques designed to deal with “unseen”, unconscious agents. I agree that it works. But now we can understand why it works. We can understand it in a reproducible and teachable way – rather than a black art (white art?) sort of way. More powerful, more efficacious. My argument is that “Satan is us” leads directly to a much more reproducible and powerful set of mechanisms to “fight the good fight”.
Don’t we all think that Christian Scientists are nuts when they refuse to take their kids to a doctor and insist that God will heal them? Who among us would use exorcism techniques to help someone diagnosed with Schizophrenia? AND as we learn more and more about the actual underlying mechanisms don’t we gain more power to effectively deal with these “unseen” agents.
This is also true in Corporate Culture dysfunction. There is a body of knowledge showing how unconscious patterns arise in an organization and “take on a life” of their own. These patterns have been shown to arise from the individuals within the organization. It has also been shown clearly how the patterns are transmitted to the next generation. The collective behavior in my opinion looks very similar to how an animal behaves – I would call it “preconscious”. It is definitely “over and against” in the sense that it “wills” its own ends and adapts to meet those ends.
When I put this filter on it sure seems to me that Satan is a “pre-conscious” animal like being. I mean – man is he stupid! Did he not see what would happen when he killed Jesus – duh! And yes – I know all the arguments about how evil just has no idea about love – it is just unfathomable to it. My point exactly. And why is this really? Pre-conscious agent.
I totally agree with the idea of a continuum of life. I would just put God at the top, us as second and everything else as a distant third – NON Imago Dei. By the way mathematically aren't many continuum's logarithmic. Well going from us to God is where we hit the asymptote – finite to infinite.
I am asserting that we are created higher than angels. We are creatures that God breathed his own life into. This is big. It is like nothing he has ever done before. There was no experiment with angelic beings that fell and became demons. This is metaphorical language trying to describe to us what WE are doing right here and right now.
We are creators and we rebelled and created Satan and the whole host of demons. Yes we must fight Satan but that means I must stop creating him and I must help my fellow humans to wake up and stop creating him. Moreover the specific way we are creating Satan is understandable and it is fixable – it is not however easy – it is infinitely hard for us to do by ourselves. It is absolutely detailed and precise. It is exact. And we can learn what we do minute by minute and second by second that creates this evil.
What about all the mythology that points to the fact that when we choose good, when we stop supporting Satan / evil beings that they just disappear? That they in fact feed off us. They take their power from us. We create them.
Doc: I’m afraid I’m not following you’re thinking here. Are you saying that we human individuals are "volitional abstractions"? If you are, I can understand that (relative to other perspectives, e.g. our neurons). But in this case calling gods "volitional abstractions" doesn’t entail that they are any less real as individuals THAN WE ARE.
Iconoclast:
Yes. Lets first understand it as a perspectival continuum. A human is a volitional abstraction. We are made up of multiple volitional sub-conscious agents – each following their own goals. These agents are made up themselves of sub-agents recursively culminating in an unbelievably complex multi-layered logic system. (A good book on the details of this is “The Synaptic Organization of the Brain”) One can actually learn techniques for gaining a very high degree of conscious control over these myriad agents. So, we are ourselves a LORD of Hosts. Of course, most of the time we are really just a SLAVE of our Hosts. (parent tapes now play: “discipline my boy, discipline”). I assume I am invoking the biblical stuff about “single-minded” and “double-minded” here.
This is the perspectival continuum down. The perspectival continuum up just continues the pattern. The concept of corporate culture, its dispositional volitional power and its precise mechanics are well understood.
So, does it make sense to say that the first layer down from us in this continuum – a sub-conscious agent – is really a demon? Well, we know for a fact that some of them are NOT demons. So, does it make sense to say that one of them might be? Or is this just metaphorical language? Certainly it can’t make any sense to say that the second or third layer down are really demons – or that one of them might be?
Does it make sense to say that the first layer up in organizational patterns is an angel or a demon? (The angel of laoedicia (sp?)) Is it at the workgroup level that demons start inhabiting our patterns? If not, then at what level is it really a demon or an angel? Or again is this just metaphorical language seeking to describe something very powerful and very real about the nature of reality? Let me be very clear. I want to say that yes every level up and down each sub-conscious agent and each workgroup pattern ARE angels and demons – but NOT literal beings like us.
Can’t we understand this as God being able to see AND interact with each of these levels? If so, then the language of God talking to the angel of a church to get a generalized sense of what is being created is real. It also makes sense then for God to “go down and get a closer look” at the lower level “pattern formations” to see AND interact with the reality at lower levels. With Saul of Tarsus the higher level pattern was killing of Christians BUT God saw lower level patterns that with a minor adjustment (BIG slap up-side the head) created a powerful new higher level pattern we know as the apostle Paul – overnight! (one more reason we best not be condemning others). Now when God “went down” to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if there were any individuals capable of creating a new pattern – nothing there to work with.
Doc: But in this case calling gods "volitional abstractions" doesn’t entail that they are any less real as individuals THAN WE ARE.
Iconoclast:
Now THIS is where something amazing is happening. THIS is what I am after.
WE are a very special case in this perspectival continuum. WE can create or destroy sub-conscious agents. WE can create or destroy super-conscious (organizational) agents. (this is what great leaders do on a massive scale and of course we all do on a smaller scale).
We are like special creative centers within this myriad of “beings”. We are Imago Dei.
We are within the midst (“the anxious making middle” – Bonhoeffer) of this perspectival continuum and YET – we are also completely outside it – we are in the world – but we are not of the world. Why? We can create. Satan creates nothing. Angels create nothing. There is a difference here that is astounding. Satan is the god of this world because in our fallen state WE are the god of this world. Satan is defeated to the extent that WE are defeated – to the extent that we are united with God Satan no longer even exists. Jesus’ defeat of Satan means that we now have a way back to unity with God.
Did we really create Satan? Yes and no. Let me try to say it this way: God created spiritual beings (understood now in perspectival / ordinal metaphysics as “centers”). To the extent that God or humans in unity with God are at work we call these spirits angels. To the extent that fallen humans disunited with God are at work we call these spirits demons.
But how did God create Satan? Satan is the power of opposition. Ha-satan: the accuser, the opposer. In some sense I am thinking of “das nichtiges”.
In my mind there are two creation stories in the Bible: Job and Adam and Eve (the Fall). They are both seeking to get at the fundamental mystery of evil / Satan. In the Job story “Satan” is invoked and in the other Satan is specifically NOT invoked. We can only understand the situation with both stories together. (and of course only really from the light of the incarnation)
The story of the Fall specifically does NOT invoke Satan. One minor point here is that the Job story actually pre-dates the Fall story so it isn’t like we just learned more later on. The story of the Fall says that the serpent asked the fateful question: “Did God say…”. The serpent here must be understood as one of God’s created creatures – a part of the creation that God just called very good (specifically referring to the creation of Man). NOT something outside of the creation. This is a critical part of the story. It is only later on that we hear Satan referred to as a serpent. My argument here is that our understanding of Satan MUST be conditioned in the light of the Creation story RATHER than conditioning our understanding of the serpent in light of a reference made that Satan is “that old serpent”. I am not saying here that Satan isn’t the serpent. I am saying he is – and we can understand what Satan is much more accurately in light of the meaning of the Creation story rather than reading into the Creation story our misguided notion of what Satan is.
God says: “Do not eat of the fruit…for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The serpent says: “Did God say…” (and the rest is history).
Hmmm…I am not going to finish this now due to time. I will just quickly outline the following basic argument:
But first it is important that you do NOT think of the color blue…gotcha. Ok. Especially don’t think of the color deep blue. Hmmm…there you go again thinking about blue.
A prohibition sets up a subconscious process. By the way – never tell your 7 year old to NOT spill that cup of milk. You just disposed them to spilling the milk.
The story of the Fall is a story for us. We are the audience. It is meant to communicate a very complex and powerful truth.
Serpents don’t talk. The author of the story knew that. The author could have said Satan. He didn’t. The conversation Eve had with the serpent is a subconscious projection of a conversation she had with herself. She projects this on the serpent and ultimately blames the serpent for her behavior. She ultimately accuses the serpent.
OK maybe I won’t outline the complete basic argument. But one of these days I will. 
thanks,
Iconoclast
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MrIndifference
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Total Posts : 144
| Posted 2/11/2002 8:43 PM (GMT -6) | | I am confused here. First you say that spiritual beings are real, then you downplay the existence of satan to the point of simply being a play on the mind by a series of neural chemical reactions. Make up your mind. If you were trying to show how the spiritual realm reflects directly on the physical realm and visa versa, I would agree with you whole heartedly. What you are saying simply tries to remove the spiritual factors from the world. Christianity downplays the role of spirituallity in our religion enough the way it is. My big question is what role does spirituallity play in your theory, and what is the role of the Holy Spirit?
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/12/2002 3:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast:quote:
I can directly defeat Satan by focusing my energy on improving my behavior, my relationships and my spiritual life without having to be the policeman of my brothers behavior. I can directly defeat Satan by focusing energy in my workplace on doing good work for my customers and by helping the organization to become a more healthy place to work. Everything I do as long as I am walking in the light is right here and right now defeating Satan. Everything I do can now become “Kingdom Work”.
If you end up here with your arguement, it doesn't matter to me how you got there ( well it does matter, but it's not that important in the scheme of things) . This is the stuff a life worth living is made up of.
A question though, why pigs running into the water?
peace and love , don
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/13/2002 2:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for starting this thread Don.
It has been an interesting read.
Corporate culture can have its beginnings with the organizations vision and mission statements, in that all the members share a common goal. Then you add in the structure of the organization, the proscribed hierarchy, the preferred channels of communication, etc, and what happens is all employees get an idea of 'how we do things around here.' This shared belief system, the values, and mores of the corporate body are the 'organizational culture'. How does that shared understanding become so substantial that it can actually have an effect on our physical world? I don't get it.
If the pigs went into the water because of similar power abiding in one man, then why can't I do telekinetic acts also?
Is is just 'the devil in us' that gets to manifest in supernatural ways? How come the spirit in me doesn't empower me to shoot lightening bolts from my fingertips?
Well, I'm off to Florida for a week. Sorry this is so off the cuff. I'll look this thread up when I get back. thanks to all who contributed.
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 2/13/2002 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | I'd like to begin by first rebuking all demonic spirits that would try to twist anything I'd say in a direction other than what its intended.
I REBUKE YOU.!
"This board is now clean"
Okay, lets dig in.
Icon: I would say that the incarnation is clear and convincing evidence that God is not an abstraction. Jesus was clearly a literal being in the sense that we understand literal beings. Even without Jesus though it is pretty clear in the old testament that God is quite different from these other gods.
Doc: But here’s whats odd: The Incarnate One spoke over and over again – and even interacted with – Satan as a "literal" being (as we understand "literal beings"). To me, this is absolutely unequivocally HUGE. And yes, the "gods" in the Bible are "different" from the creator God. But nothing suggests they are any less REAL – as "literal beings" – than the creator God.
Iconoclast: Do you agree that a full "warfare" metaphor entails some mappings that you would disagree with?
Doc: Only if you presuppose that "full" means "secular." But we’re talking about a metaphor, which by definition means "like in some respects" and "unlike in some respects." The WAY we do spiritual warfare is obviously very very different from the violent, hatefilled, way we do earthly warfare. But it is WAR none the less. A battle is about. Things are at stake. Sacrifice is necessary. Etc…
Iconoclast: The "Satan is really us" metaphor I believe allows us to pray more specifically - with more visualizations - and is more motivational to do so.
Doc: I’m not sure how you visualize "Satan is really us." I always "see" demonic beings (in my head) as "out there". Once I saw one not in my head... and that was very weird. I chased it in my backyard.
And now Icon is worried about me.
Icon: Who among us would use exorcism techniques to help someone diagnosed with Schizophrenia?
Doc: I wonder if sometimes what looks like "schiozophrenia" isn’t more about demons. Our culture, however, only classifies certain sorts of behaviors as "schizophrenic." I’d recommend doing everything we can on a natural level (e.g. medication) AND at a spiritual level (exorcism).
Icon: AND as we learn more and more about the actual underlying mechanisms don’t we gain more power to effectively deal with these "unseen" agents.
Doc: Thank God for advances in psychiatry. Amen. BUT, as Scott Peck came to see (Children of the Lie) it seems overly optimistic to think that we will ever be able to be effective with all these "unseen agents" through psychiatry. Sometimes exorcism IS necessary (Peck has a GREAT account of this in this book).
Icon: We are creators and we rebelled and created Satan and the whole host of demons. Yes we must fight Satan but that means I must stop creating him and I must help my fellow humans to wake up and stop creating him.
Doc: I would grant that I must stop infusing him with POWER (for his only power is the power of a lie)… but I don’t see that I or you or Jesus or anyone else CREATES him.
Icon: I totally agree with the idea of a continuum of life. I would just put God at the top, us as second and everything else as a distant third
Doc: But it seems to me there is a MAJOR break in the continuum between US and GOD. If we saw anything like this break in the animal kingdom… say, we saw a incremental development from amebas to toads… and then humans… we’d suspect there must be OTHER animals we are missing between us and toads. Its like we have 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 …..114, 115,116,117, 118. The continumum has a break. All of life is formed on continuums… color, shapes, crystals, life forms… Yet between humans and God there is an ENORMOUS gap. THIS is the intuition that shaped the "continuum argument" throughout history.
Icon: What about all the mythology that points to the fact that when we choose good, when we stop supporting Satan / evil beings that they just disappear? That they in fact feed off us. They take their power from us. We create them.
Doc: Darkness flees when light is turned on. But that doesn’t mean the light creates the darkness. Satan and demons have no power IN US when we are in the truth, so we can render them impotent by knowing and walking in truth. But I don’t see that this implies that our NOT knowing or walking in truth is what creates them.
Icon: Does it make sense to say that the first layer up in organizational patterns is an angel or a demon?
Doc: I understand and appreciate the explanatory power and simplicity of the "spirits are wholes" and "spirits are sub-agents" metaphor. But the issue, as I see it, is EMPIRICAL. We JUST FIND that there are certain kinds of beings that exists – turtles, monkeys, people. There is no a priori reason why THESE and not some other beings exist. There is no necessity to their existence. It is simply divine choice (and perhaps, in some instances, to some degree, demonic choices). So the issue of whether supra-human entities exists, like the issue of whether aliens exist, must be decided on grounds OTHER THAN a priori reasoning. Follow me?
Icon: I can directly defeat Satan by focusing my energy on improving my behavior, my relationships and my spiritual life without having to be the policeman of my brothers behavior. I can directly defeat Satan by focusing energy in my workplace on doing good work for my customers and by helping the organization to become a more healthy place to work. Everything I do as long as I am walking in the light is right here and right now defeating Satan. Everything I do can now become "Kingdom Work".
Doc: Despite our philosophical/ theological differences, it seems we end up in about the same place. Pierce said true belief is that upon which you’re willing to act. In this light, it would almost seem that our differences of belief are more semantic. (Yet, this doesn’t seem right either. It seems more fundamental).
Icon: We can create. Satan creates nothing. Angels create nothing. There is a difference here that is astounding.
Doc: I’m reading this as circular, Icon. We create with our decisions. (Or do you mean something else). Whether spirits are decision-making beings or not is the point in dispute. So you can’t appeal to the (supposed) non-decision/creating capacity of spirits to argue that they aren’t volitional "centers" as we are. In my view, Satan DOES he create: he created WAR.
*** on the Job/Genesis thing. To much to go into here. Stuff to chew on. I really appreciate the level of thought and effort you put into this Icon. From my perspective, the fundamental issue comes down to this. I appreciate the explanatory power and simplicity of your hypothesis. There’s something "tempting" about it. (could it be "Satan" – in church lady voice). Yet, I see the issue as no different from the dispute as to whether aliens exist. They may or may not, but its an empirical question, not a philosophical question. Empirical questions must be answered either by a) evidence or b) authority. Regarding "a," I feel it is decisively on my side, but you have argued that all "demonic" phenomenon can be accounted for in your system. So we’re left with "b." The authority that does it for me is Jesus. You want to relativize his view of spirits as volitional centers because of advances in information in our culture. I, on the other hand, see his view of spirits as volitional centers as too fundamental to his over all worldview to relativize. Jesus interacted with Satan like he was a personal being. I feel compelled to do the same.
Don: A question though, why pigs running into the water?
Doc: Yes, this is what I’m talking about. Icon would probably say that something about the "corporate spirit" of the people was manifested in the pigs. But this, for me, takes more faith than thinking that there were actual little vermons in "legion" that a) pleaded with Jesus and b) then went into the suicidal hams.
Think about that next time you have bacon.
love ya'll
Doc
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/24/2002 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi All,
I'm back! It took me a week just to catch up! This is a great thread!
quote:
Icon wrote: "...it is OK to believe that WE are influenced to do evil by all manner of forces..."
What manner of evil forces would these be?
quote:
Icon: (continued from sentece quoted above) ..."but that the second we start thinking that the power to “fight” evil comes from actions to stop my brother from sinning rather than from actions to stop my own sinning then we are in big trouble. In fact, we have just become the very enemy we are decrying – we are now the Accuser."
I appreciate your heart for the hurting, and your indignity at self-righteousness, but my experience with deliverance has never been motivated by a desire to make people quit sinning, or accuse them.
quote:
Icon: "What I am focused on here is excluding direct action to stamp out the evil we see so clearly in our brother. I am asserting that this direct action is action against our brother. It is accusation and condemnation which is exactly the evil within ourselves that God is at war with."
I can understand how God would war against us when we become accusatory or condemning, that part is biblical enough, but I don't understand how deliverance is defined as 'direct action to stamp out the evil we see so cleary in our brother.' My experience of deliverance has been one of setting captives free with the love, truth and presense of God, at the behest of the oppressed.
Springs
For the...KJV version! (hey, a little support for the ol' English, eh!)-Starkman
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