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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:12 AM (GMT -6)

Icon:
Seesaw

These people, incidentally, were clearly not created or "born" with this homosexuality. Clearly, they did not start out committing this sin but rather, it resulted from their previous sins, which separated them from God, and the "foolishness" and futility of their thinking.

Iconoclast

Are you saying that God gives up on 10 year old children and makes them gay because they have become so full of sin?

Doesn't Jesus say that we are supposed to come to him like these little children? How can a child be so full of depravity that God makes them gay? This just doesn't compute for me.

Or, are you suggesting that there are two categories here?

1. People who are naturally heterosexual but become so full of depravity that they go against their natural sexual orientation.

2. People who are naturally homosexual from a mix of genetic and developmental factors.

And that Romans 1 is only talking about category #1.

thanks,
Iconoclast

DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:12 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie:
quote:
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Iconoclast

Are you saying that God gives up on 10 year old children and makes them gay because they have become so full of sin?

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Plus, I have wondered about those who didn't even know they were sinning. How could God give them over to their sinful nature IF they had no idea that they were in sin? I think becoming full of sin would have to at some level be intentional and with 10 year old children or people who are unaware of the sin I just don't see how God could or would give them over to their sinful nature by making them gay. That's like saying that God gives up on overeaters thus they become obese. Seems there's more at work here than that.

trosie

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:13 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:Homosexuality is not sin? What then is it? Simply an acceptable lifestyle? Who determines what is sin and what is not? There are many who call homosexuality a sin because of what they read in Scripture. Homosexuality is never once described with favorable words but is called such things as "shameful," "indecent," and "perversion." Not my words. Romans 1:27 There are others who say as DLW does that it is not sin. How have you arrived at such a conclusion is what I am wondering. Have you arrived at this conclusion based on Scripture or based on the mindset and acceptance that is pervasive in the world?

DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie:
Seesaw quote:
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Choice? I don't think so.
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Many actions are not choices that people consciously decide to do yet they are spoken of as sin. Overeating (gluttony) is not something that people would choose -- who wants to be fat? Having a bad marriage that falls apart is not something a person would choose. Being homosexual is not something a person would deliberately choose either, however, gluttony, divorce (for the most part), and homosexuality are all spoken of and referred to as SIN in the bible.

Here's a question: Are we ONLY sinning when we make a conscious choice to intentionally go against the will of God while having the power to do otherwise?

Thanks,
trosie

DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6)

trosie

Here's a question: Are we ONLY sinning when we make a conscious choice to intentionally go against the will of God while having the power to do otherwise?

Iconoclast

Sin = "hamartia" = missing the mark (literally: an arrow not hitting the bullseye).

Thus, sin is anything less than God's ideal for us. This is why Jesus in the sermon on the mount said that divorce and remarriage was sin - it is not God's ideal. Lust in the heart is not God's ideal. Saying "thou fool" to another is not God's ideal. Saying a careless word is not God's ideal. Seems to me that this is true whether I am intentionally conscious of going against God's ideal or not.

In fact, it is hard for me to see how the definition of sin requires us to make a conscious choice to intentionally go against the will of God. It may not be my conscious choice to have the arrow miss the bullseye but if it does I have clearly "missed the mark" = "hamartia" = sin.

Question: is it God's ideal for us that our nakedness causes us to feel shame?

thanks,
Iconoclast

DLW
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Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:15 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:
Icon quote:
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From the link DLW posted:

quote:
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"But gays are not the favorite whipping boy they once were. And for most Americans, with more exposure [to gays] comes an ease with the subject, and an acceptance,' Wells said."

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This is what happened in the church with divorced and remarried people. As christians had more exposure to divorced and remarried people they came to realize they were not "living in sin" and they became accepting that they did not need to either remain celibate or go back to their original spouse.

Now, can you imagine reasonable people getting more exposure to child rapists and coming to "an ease with the subject, and an acceptance"? How about raging alcoholics? How about thieves? How about ax-murderers? How about slanderers?

This is just another piece of convergent evidence that Paul's sin list in 1 Corinthians is NOT talking about homosexuals.

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homosexual acts, not homosexuals. One need not be a homosexual to commit homosexual acts. Forcing another male to provide sexual favors would be one way of exerting dominion over those under you in the Roman Empire. If you got the power, you can make them do anything you please. What your "natural" preference may be has nothing to do with it. Try watching the movie, "Roma" or I think it was Satyricon. Both are movies by Federico Fellini and give an honest view of what life was like in Roman days. Our current categories we use for homosexuality were not present then.

Traditionally, marriages/family were an economic unit of great importance. As our economic well-being has improved, its economic importance has declined and divorce has risen correspondingly. However, having said that, there would be a lot less poor people in the US if they were married. Upper Middle Class types may be able to afford to mess up their marriages but the consequences are more severe for the lower-class and so our general acceptance of divorce need not be viewed as a positive, natural development.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:15 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:
Seesawquote:
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Homosexuality is not sin? What then is it? Simply an acceptable lifestyle? Who determines what is sin and what is not? There are many who call homosexuality a sin because of what they read in Scripture. Homosexuality is never once described with favorable words but is called such things as "shameful," "indecent," and "perversion." Not my words. Romans 1:27 There are others who say as DLW does that it is not sin. How have you arrived at such a conclusion is what I am wondering. Have you arrived at this conclusion based on Scripture or based on the mindset and acceptance that is pervasive in the world?

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I never said that homosexuality is not due to sin. However, one can be born into sin and it will not be your own fault or your own choice or what-not.

Please, scripture only deals with homosexual acts, not homosexuality. As I stated before, we must draw upon both revealed and general truths to work out what should be our ecclesiastical response to the problem of order concerning homosexuality.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:16 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:

Ten year olds certainly are aware of the opposite sex but they are not naturally thinking of SEX (as in sexual intimacy; sexual intercourse) unless they have been raised in an environment in which there has been some sort of sexual sin against them or exposure to sexual things or some sort of perversity.

Your 7 yr. old daughter's reacting to the opposite sex by noticing boys and blushing does not equate to having sexual tendencies or thoughts of sex.

Boys and girls are not drawn sexually to each other at a young age in romantic and sexual ways UNLESS they have been exposed to what I mentioned above. If there is a child below the age of 10 who is sexual, there is also almost certainly a guarantee that you could go into that home and find either neglect, abuse, a broken home, or something that the child has been exposed to that has psychologically affected them detrimentally.

Until a certain age, boys and girls do not have sexual thoughts and desires (unless there has been some violation of them as a person due to abuse, exposure to perversity, and so on).

Five year olds do NOT have sexual feelings for a person. Your friend must have an amazing memory to be able to recall that he had sexually-oriented feelings at the young age of five.

Is it perhaps likely that because he is now homosexual and has chosen this lifestyle that he now looks back and assumes that what were natural freindships with boys were sexual desires for boys? Many homosexual males can look back and say that they enjoyed boys; thus, they believe they were homosexual from a young age. However, go to any schoolyard playground and you will see boys playing with boys and girls with girls. Boys prefer boys and girls prefer girls when they are children. A person could quite easily look back at his childhood and say- all my friends were the same sex; thus, I must be gay when in actuality, they were quite normal!

To be "different" from the other boys does not indicate homosexuality. Many children (and adults) feel "different" due to a variety of things- poorly developed social skills, of a sensitive personality struggling with a broken home situation, and so forth. Also, when a person does not know Christ, there can be an emptiness or searching within them. Many people could mistake this for something else (like being homosexual). We are an easily deceived people.

quote:
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Choice? I don't think so.
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Is not OV all about choice? Yet a homosexual has no choice?

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:16 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:DLW, my question was not "is homosexuality due to sin?" My question is- is homosexuality sin? Or is it not?

Are homosexual acts sin? Or are they not?

quote:
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As I explained before, homosexuality is analogous to being born with a hole in one's heart(as I was). It is not a sin that one commits
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You have said in the above quote that it is not sin. You also used the term "homosexuality" and not "homosexual acts."

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw

Is not OV all about choice? Yet a homosexual has no choice?

Iconoclast

Is your sexual orientation a choice for you? Imagine for a moment that the world was just the opposite and that 97% of the population was homosexual and heterosexuality was considered a terrible sin. Could you choose to be homosexual? A person's sexual orientation is obviously manifested in their fantasy life. Could you choose to change your fantasy life to be homosexually oriented?

Also, the question of whether a person's sexual orientation is determined at a very young age is a factual question. It is not a matter of opinion. There is a factual answer to this question - no different than the question of whether the Earth is flat or not - it is something that through scientific research can be answered.

If you were able to research this question and come to the conclusion that, in fact, sexual orientation is determined and "synaptically wired" by the age of 10 would it change your view on this topic?

thanks,
Iconoclast

DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw

Are homosexual acts sin? Or are they not?

Iconoclast

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Is it a sin for women to speak in church?

My answer to both questions is no. Not in and of themselves.

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.

thanks,
Iconoclast

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:If the world was 97% homosexual, thus leaving 3% heterosexual, we would die out. The world is not 97% homosexual because it is not the way God created us. He created us male and female. When Adam saw Eve, it was "good"!

You mention research; however, there is actually very little research, especially scientifically based, that actually proves that homosexuality is genetic. It is mostly speculation and very little actual fact.

My question is not are woman allowed to speak in church? My question is- IS HOMOSEXUALITY SIN? It either is or it isn't. Your answer is no, correct? You believe that homosexuality is NOT sin. I can thus assume that you believe that homosexuality is an appropriate and acceptable lifestyle that God approves of and from what I gather, you base this on the belief that homosexuals are born as such and they do not have the choice of heterosexuality.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw

If the world was 97% homosexual, thus leaving 3% heterosexual, we would die out. The world is not 97% homosexual because it is not the way God created us. He created us male and female. When Adam saw Eve, it was "good"!

Iconoclast

Is it fair for me to assume based on this response that you concede that point I was making - that you could not, in fact, choose to be homosexual if you wanted? If so, do you concede the corollary - that homosexuals cannot choose to become heterosexual?

Seesaw

You mention research; however, there is actually very little research, especially scientifically based, that actually proves that homosexuality is genetic. It is mostly speculation and very little actual fact.

Iconoclast

I agree that the research does not suggest that homosexuality is largely genetic. The research only indicates that a person's sexual orientation is determined ("wired") at a very early age - < 10. There has been quite a bit of research on this. In fact, the scientific community's opinion is largely settled on this point. Now, just as there is still a "flat earth society" there are of course pockets who disagree.

Seesaw

My question is not are woman allowed to speak in church? My question is- IS HOMOSEXUALITY SIN? It either is or it isn't. Your answer is no, correct? You believe that homosexuality is NOT sin. I can thus assume that you believe that homosexuality is an appropriate and acceptable lifestyle that God approves of and from what I gather, you base this on the belief that homosexuals are born as such and they do not have the choice of heterosexuality.

Iconoclast

This seems like very black and white thinking Seesaw. Why do you presuppose that it either IS or it ISN'T? Are you aware of the scripture where Paul talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols? Is it possible that the question of whether it is sin or not is highly nuanced?

Romans 14:23 - And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

I believe that whatever is not done out of faith is sin.

Romans 13:8 - Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

... and that whatever is done out of love is NOT sin but the fulfillment of the law.

I really don't think God gives a rip about how a loving monogamous gay couple chooses to be intimate with each other.

You talk about homosexuality as though it is a "lifestyle". What exactly do you mean by this? Are you talking about promiscuous sex? If so, then I don't think that is a very loving thing at all - for either homosexuals or for heterosexuals.

thanks,
Iconoclast

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6)

Shell:

Seesawquote:
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Five year olds do NOT have sexual feelings for a person. Your friend must have an amazing memory to be able to recall that he had sexually-oriented feelings at the young age of five.

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Seesaw, are you interested in a discussion or just throwing around sarcastic comments? If it is the latter then I won't bother sharing my friend's experience with you any further. Secondly I'm a licensed social worker and have studied children's issues... have worked with disturbed children...normal children...sexually abused children...so please don't make assumptions that I don't have a clue as to what are age appropriate feelings and expressions.

Shell

ps.I saw your email address was at gregboyd.org are you involved with Christus Victor in some way? Just curious.

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:19 AM (GMT -6)

Shell:Seesaw,
After rereading my response this morning I want to say that sometimes this board brings out the worst in me...especially this topic. I am frustrated with your response, but perhaps my original post sounded a bit imflammatory as well. My frustration is that your comments seemed flippant and that huge assumptions were being made. My friend is a real person, with real feelings, and real life experiences that have affected my life. I just long for a more thoughtful, loving dialogue no matter where a person falls on this issue.

This is what I would like to say: Please don't discount someone else's life experience(your friend must have "an amazing memory") Whether you can believe it or not, it is true. I wasn't making something up to just to try and dispute your theory on homosexuality. I have two pretty clear memories from when I was 18 months old with very distinct recollections of feelings and emotions and visuals of what was in the room etc. One was the result of a traumatic injury the other was a result of a positive experience. My memories from five are abundant. I remember getting a haircut that I was embarrassed about. I remember waiting at the bus stop wondering what others thought about my hair, I remember being shy around the older kids on the bus, I remember my closest friend moving away and crying myself to sleep, I remember telling my first lie and my mother taking me and standing me up on my canopy bed and talking to me about how harmful lying is, and I remember what I was wearing when she did this. I remember a boy kissing me in kindergarten and telling me he wanted to marry me, and I remember thinking he was really cute...I remember playing in the second floor loft of my kindergarten school room and loving the dolls and books that were there and especially loving reading. I remember crying one particular day during art when I was five years old because I couldn't make my black construction paper school bus wheels as round as the art teacher with the long beautiful red hair and long fingernails did. What I shared is about this person's LIFE and HE wasn't sharing this with me to "prove" anything or anyone wrong. Why is it so hard for you to believe that he is being truthful about what he felt at five, six, or seven. And...in all acutuality he does have an amazing memory...he is a brilliant physician.

Secondly, I wasn't implying that my daughter or my friend had any thoughts of sexual intercourse. What I am saying is that "feelings" (meaning flutters in their stomach for the first time around someone they think is cute, nervousness, blushing etc.) towards the opposite sex does begin at a young age. Is it linked to sexuality...yes...is it perfectly innocent...yes...is it about thoughts of actual sex at that age? Absolutely not. My daughter is actually very innocent and naiive for her age compared to what most kids have been exposed to via T.V. and friends etc., and I intend to keep her that way as long as possible. My husband I both feel very strongly about this. When she reacts to the opposite sex or makes cute little comments...I just smile to myself...no acknowlegement...no sexualization...I don't allow my other children to tease her about having a "boyfirend" etc. The issue here is my daughter isn't feeling these feelings across the board (both boys and girls)....she is distinctly having these awakening feelings for boys...the opposite sex. Her girlfriends don't make her blush when they walk into the room, or make her act sillier than normal. This ISN'T sexualizing a child. This is a normal stage of development. The issue at hand is that the homosexual individuals that I know began this stage with feelings for the same sex. Homosexuality wasn't something they just decided to explore as a teenager when they hit puberty. They DO remember those feelings beginning at very young ages. My friend was never abused or sexualized as a child. He came from a supportive Christian home with an involved father and mother, he accepted the Lord at age five, loved the Lord, went to church and was very confused about his feelings from a very young age.

Shell

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:19 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
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Seesaw

Are homosexual acts sin? Or are they not?

Iconoclast

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Is it a sin for women to speak in church?

My answer to both questions is no. Not in and of themselves.

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.

thanks,
Iconoclast

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It is wrong for people who have not had the education/opportunities needed to understand scripture and make well-informed prophetic remarks within the setting of the church to get up and take the mike at a Church and try to give a sermon.

Paul was addressing how females, due to the discrimination in their access to education, were then abusing their freedoms in a manner that was not constructive for the Church. The principle is still true, even though it was framed in a culturally specific manner.

I think the same is still true for homosexual acts, it is not just one of those things we have come to learn are not truly wrong. They are still off the mark in the wider sense of the word, but, because of the constitutionality of much homosexuality, the relation of the Church to homosexuals should be changed to accept monogamous homosexual marriages.

If homosexuality is not chosen it is not a sin. Although, there are aspects of many homosexuals' life-styles that are chosen and sinful.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:Shell- My comments were not intended to discount your background, your knowledge, or your friend's experience. Nor were they sarcastic or flippant. I apologize that they came across that way.

I don't believe that research is strong enough to prove that any person is born homosexual. I also don't believe that a child has sexual inclinations unless they have had exposure as a child to something "dysfuntional." Yes, certainly, children have responses to the opposite sex from an early age, some more than others depending on their personality and home life. I had huge crushes on boys in elementary school (not until around 5th grade) BUT as far as sexual feelings, there were none. Yes, I was sexual in that I was feminine and a girl, blushing and being shy or flirtacious and having other such feelings (finding a boy "cute"), but as far as committing sexual acts... well, I didn't even know what masturbation was until some boy told me what it was in 8th grade and I was disgusted when I found out!

The word "homosexual" refers to a person who has SEXUAL desire towards the opposite sex. It is not simply the desire to be friends, to hang out, or to talk- it is the desire to be sexually intimate with the person. If I desire friendship with another female, this does not mean I am homosexual. If I desire to spend time with a female, to share thoughts with a female, to be roomates with a female, to hang out with a female- none of this indicates any homosexuality. However, if I desire to have a sexual relationship with another female, then this thus, would be considered to be homosexual- being sexual with the same sex. Homo- same. Sexual- having to do with sex.

Children do not desire to commit sexual acts with other children UNLESS something in their life has exposed them to such things (they've been molested, exposed to pornography, abused, so forth). A child is not born with the desire to have sex while a child. Those type of feelings do not begin until adolescence.

Many homosexuals look back at young ages and say they were "different" and that they liked the same sex, but who is to say that this was abnormal for them to feel such a way? Most boys will look back and say they liked boys; girls like girls. It's normal. If an adult looks back and says they had sexual feelings for the same sex (or even for the opposite sex), then there was some exposure to something that created this desire; children do not naturally desire sex.

This was what I was trying to say.

I had a college girlfriend tell me she was homosexual. (She was a Christian). I sensed it before I knew it and actually pulled away from the friendship- before she told me (a year later) that she was homosexual. In our friendship, she began to act strange- possessive and jealous. She wrote me a letter once- irrate basically because I had other friends. I began to feel uncomfortable and the friendship was not enjoyable. As well, she had begun to drink and behave in odd ways that were not characteristic of what I'd known of her. I began to back away and spend more time with other friends. I remember feeling bad that I didn't want to be with her, and I didn't know what was going on but I knew I didn't enjoy her possessiveness, jealousy, and other behaviors. I was not cruel to her, but our friendship pretty much faded out and a year later at a homecoming, I saw her and she told me she was homosexual.

I also once counseled a girl whose father was dying of AIDS after leaving her mother for a male lover and a homosexual relationship. Obviously, he felt he had no other choice. I can't even describe the heaviness, shame, hurt, and other ramifications of this man's choice that occurred in this family. We kept in touch for awhile. Her father died and she had many things to deal with.

I have known others, including a child, to call themsleves homosexual. I have known some young girls who looked, acted or talked just like boys; and boys who looked, acted, talked like girls. However, there is no research proving that genetically they have been predisposed to this.

quote:
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Te issue at hand is that the homosexual individuals that I know began this stage with feelings for the same sex. Homosexuality wasn't something they just decided to explore as a teenager when they hit puberty.
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What I am saying is that our hearts are deceitfully wicked; we often deceive our own selves. It is very possible that your friend, because he is now homosexual, believes that his friendships with boys and his desire to be with boys as a child indicate that he was homosexual even then when in fact, he had very normal desires to be friends with boys. If he had SEXUAL feelings for these boys as a five year old, then I'd venture to say that something was very wrong because five year olds do not even know what sex is nor do they desire it. They may giggle and laugh at an attempt to kiss another child, they may pull down their underwear and flash a sibling while giggling like crazy, boys find women pretty, and so forth, but as far as having a desire to be sexually intimate with someone, a five year old is not wired that way.

So, either your friend, as a five year old had NORMAL desires to be close to boys- he desired male friendships. But this does not indicate homosexuality although as an adult, he may have convinced himself that it does. Either that is the case, or, as a five year old, he had sexual feelings for boys, thus, leading him towards a homosexual lifestyle. However, if this was the case, then he was a sexualized five year old and that is not an indication that he was created that way but that something in his life caused a knowledge or awareness of sexual acts or something caused him to feel different and so forth.

If a person is truly BORN homosexual, then they have no choice in their life other than to be homosexual; thus, God does control people's choices and I could even say that God would be evil for creating people homosexual with no other choice. A homosexual person can not have children. If a homosexual couple adopts a child, that child will surely be subject to harrassment and ridicule various times in his life. He will also have confusion having two mommies or two daddies. Homosexual people also have low mortality rates. It is near impossible for them to avoid contacting a disease, including AIDS which is passed on to both lover and unborn child. And despite the greater acceptance of homosexuality now as compared to the past, it still is not socially acceptable in most circles outside Hollywood.

I find it to be very unloving to "enable" a homosexual to remain in such a lifestyle and to offer them no hope of being able to change.

And I am speaking of homosexuality here. I could say the same about gluttony and being grossly overweight or an alcoholic or some other vice that is harming a person's present and future life.

Homosexuality is not necessarily a worser sin, but it is a more unnatural sin. Any sexual sin is very consequential because it involves the bonding of flesh and the soul. Homosexual sin goes beyond sexual sin in that it involves an unnatural bonding of flesh and soul. God did not design women to be sexual with each other or men to be sexual with one another and it is simply not natural.

You might ask your friend- was his 5 yr. old desire a normal desire for male friendship or did he actually have sexual desires for boys as a 5 yr. old?

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:Andrew, I also have not read through the whole thread and just recently joined in. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. Those who say they can't help it, can. Sin is entangling. We become slaves to it, and it feels as if we cannot escape; sin can master us if we allow it to. An alcoholic, a hot-tempered person, a gambler, a homosexual, an alduterer, etc. might say that they "can't help it" but in reality, they can. It's not always easy to change though and definitely a person will have more success with the Lord in their life as well as other Christians helping him. Alone and with our own attempts, it is very, very difficult to free ourselves from sin.

It is human nature to justify our sin or to minimize it. Most people don't like the term "alcoholic" but prefer to use "drinking PROBLEM." Thus it is a problem that they are not fully responsible for. We hate taking responsibility for our sins and our choices. I have heard many people say, "Well, that's just the way I am!" Change is hard and takes work, but it is very possible. I have known children labeled "ADHD" when in reality, they were out-of-control kids due to lack of parental discipline and structure; thus, the parents put them on Ritalin rather than actually disciplining them. Ever since Adam and Eve, our tendancy has been to hide or to blame when sinning. We blame others or our upbrining or even our genetics. We hide by saying, "I'm just this way" or "there's nothing I can do" and so forth.

There isn't any proof in research that homosexuality is caused by chemical imbalances although there is speculation. It is the same with depression. Many psychologists or doctors will advise anti-depressants with the thought that there might perhaps be a chemical imbalance with the serotin levels in a person's body; however, there is no way to prove this to be true. There is no actual test able to measure chemicals in the body to see if there is an imbalance or not. It is a theory and a thought, but not a definite.

No person is without hope because through Christ, there is tremendous hope and help- for ALL! Any person can change and Jesus is all about changing lives, making people whole and healthy, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. He is the reason for our hope!

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:
SeeSaw:If a person is truly BORN homosexual, then they have no choice in their life other than to be homosexual; thus, God does control people's choices and I could even say that God would be evil for creating people homosexual with no other choice. A homosexual person can not have children. If a homosexual couple adopts a child, that child will surely be subject to harrassment and ridicule various times in his life. He will also have confusion having two mommies or two daddies. Homosexual people also have low mortality rates. It is near impossible for them to avoid contacting a disease, including AIDS which is passed on to both lover and unborn child. And despite the greater acceptance of homosexuality now as compared to the past, it still is not socially acceptable in most circles outside Hollywood.

I find it to be very unloving to "enable" a homosexual to remain in such a lifestyle and to offer them no hope of being able to change.

DLW:Please do believe us, much of our sexuality is determined prior to our birth. Which isn't to say we don't rationalize or recreate stories about our childhood that point to our current state. I don't know about that.

Being born homosexual doesn't mean that God is behind this development. You are excluding the possibility of natural evil. Unlke in Judaism, Christianity does allow for natural evil. That which is Natural is not necessarily Good or from God.

Much of the rest you say above doesn't contribute to the discussion on this link in a meaningfully way. I agree we receive very unhealthy images about sexuality from Hollywood, but these are by and far heterosexual, not homosexual, images.

Please accept that there are limits regarding what we can and cannot do about people's sexualities. Churches can and should encourage better lifestyles, but some changes are difficult and have proven from praxis to be unlikely.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw: You might ask your friend- was his 5 yr. old desire a normal desire for male friendship or did he actually have sexual desires for boys as a 5 yr. old?

Doc: It seems to me, seesaw, that you're working with an artificial dichotomy between pre-puberty "feelings" and puberty sexual attractions. There's a continuum here, isn't there? Second grade kids don't have "sexual" attractions for the opposite sex or the same sex, but they have DISTINCT FEELINGS. Hence, Shell's daughter blushes around boys, but not around girls.

Now, is it possible that a young boy can have the "feelings" most young boys have toward girls, but have them toward other boys? Would this be impact your position at all?

This doesn't require embracing the theory that homosexuality is genetically determined, as Iconoclast point out. Research suggests a multiplicity of factors beyond the control of the individual, genetics being only one of them. But it does require embracing the view that most, or at least some, gays don't CHOOSE to be gay. (There IS, I believe, a kind of perversity that craves things that aren't natural to the person, craves variety for varieties sake, craves domination or humiliation etc... Some heterosexuals may engage in homosexual acts on this grounds. I suspect this is what Romans 1 is mainly about. But I also have to confess that every gay person I've ever got close enough to to discuss this topic has testified that their orientation was there "from the start." )

Doc

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:DLW, your comments justify homosexuality.

quote:
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Please do believe us
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Who is "us" and on what ground are you asking me to believe you? Do we agree Scripturally? It appears to me that we don't; thus, are we on "common" ground whereas I ought to believe you? I'm not sure what you are desiring to convince me of, but it appears that we are not on common ground.

quote:
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much of our sexuality is determined prior to our birth.
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Our sexuality is determined to be female and male. A baby doesn't come out of the womb with any desire to procreate with his or her same sex. Nor does he have any such desire at age one or two or three... His sexual desires develop as he ages and they are conditioned by his environment and upbringing; they are in no way internal or something determined prior to birth.

quote:
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Which isn't to say we don't rationalize or recreate stories about our childhood that point to our current state. I don't know about that.
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If you advise me to believe you on your comments, then shouldn't you know more about that? An adult can very easily look back at childhood experiences and then justify some current action.

quote:
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You are excluding the possibility of natural evil.
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Define natural evil. There is Biblically no such term. Are you speaking of things such as natural disasters (floods, tornados) and other naturals- birth defects, diseases? I would not categorize homosexuality as a natural such as these. Homosexuality is a choice. It is not a disease or a birth defect; it is a lifestyle that is a choice a person makes.

quote:
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I agree we receive very unhealthy images about sexuality from Hollywood, but these are by and far heterosexual, not homosexual, images.
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Yes, they are BY FAR heterosexual and my point was- homosexuality is not socially accepted; however, Hollywood has made "ground" in recent years with its acceptance.

quote:
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Please accept that there are limits regarding what we can and cannot do about people's sexualities.
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You seem so concerned about my acceptance of this? Why so? I do not accept this (that people are born homosexual) for there is no research proving this to be true nor is there Biblical support for this being true. There is no proof either way.

quote:
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Churches can and should encourage better lifestyles, but some changes are difficult and have proven from praxis to be unlikely.
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Yes, change is very difficult. But this is no reason for us to remain in sin. Sin hurts, it destroys, it harms. God wants us OUT of sin because He wants us to experience a blessing-filled life with peace and joy and health. Obviously, we are often victim to sin in the world or someone's sin against us, and we can do nothing; but for the sins we chose to participate in, we are destroying our own selves.

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:
quote:
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DLW, your comments justify homosexuality.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please do believe us
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is "us" and on what ground are you asking me to believe you? Do we agree Scripturally? It appears to me that we don't; thus, are we on "common" ground whereas I ought to believe you? I'm not sure what you are desiring to convince me of, but it appears that we are not on common ground.

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No we do not share the same premises, which makes going back and forth on this subject a really good idea .

quote:
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much of our sexuality is determined prior to our birth.

Our sexuality is determined to be female and male. A baby doesn't come out of the womb with any desire to procreate with his or her same sex. Nor does he have any such desire at age one or two or three... His sexual desires develop as he ages and they are conditioned by his environment and upbringing; they are in no way internal or something determined prior to birth. .

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Please provide documentation from experts for your views. It is on the facts that we disagree. I think overall your view is the minority view here and so I am going to ask that you make your case using grounds that will be persuasive to the rest of us.

So far you have just been reasserting your premise over and over again.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:23 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:
quote:
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Now, is it possible that a young boy can have the "feelings" most young boys have toward girls, but have them toward other boys? Would this be impact your position at all?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not saying that a boy can't have sexual feelings for a boy or girl for girl, but IF they do, I believe it is due to an exposure to sexual things or some abuse, so forth. It is not natural for any child to have SEXUAL feelings for another child. And I am talking about the kind of "I want you!" feelings. I'm not talking about their sexuality and their interest in it. I'm talking about a lust for another person in a sexual manner.

What homosexual adults are saying is that they longed for or lusted for another child when they were children. If this is true, then somehow they were exposed to something because children don't have lustful, sexual desires for others.

Just as we are not born with adult bodies, we are also not born with adult minds or adult desires. They develop over time and with growth. A child is not born lusting after someone. If he grows up to be homosexual, there is no evidence that can prove that he was born with this inclination.

quote:
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Research suggests a multiplicity of factors beyond the control of the individual, genetics being only one of them.
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But research cannot prove any of this to be true. There is no test or measurement that can definitely measure a child's homosexual tendancies to be predisposed or something he was born with. There is no research that has been able to prove that homosexuality is genetic. There are hypothesises, guesses, theories, assumptions, and spectulations; but no absolute proof.

quote:
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It does require embracing the view that most, or at least some, gays don't CHOOSE to be gay.
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How does it "require" embracing this view? The research is not proven to be anything beyond theories.

quote:
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(There IS, I believe, a kind of perversity that craves things that aren't natural to the person, craves variety for varieties sake, craves domination or humiliation etc... Some heterosexuals may engage in homosexual acts on this grounds.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very much agreed. Or craves it due to exposure to it or a variety of other reasons.

quote:
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But I also have to confess that every gay person I've ever got close enough to to discuss this topic has testified that their orientation was there "from the start."
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This is not surprising though. Even I could choose to be gay and look back and show you "proof" that I was predisposed to it. For instance, I took baths with my best girlfriend. We iced bras as pranks at slumber parties. I have slept many times in the same bed with a girlfriend. I have told girlfriends that I "love them." I have been jealous over a girlfriend's other best girlfriends. As a young girl, I held hands with my girlfriends. And on and on.

Could I not easily share all this with you and then say, "I am gay and you can see how I was gay even as a child?" Or is it more that I was a very normal heterosexual girl as a child doing what most heterosexual girls do as children? How, as an adult, do I distinguish? The only distinguishing factor would be if I literally lusted after these girls and "wanted" them sexually. Thus, it would go beyond a normal girl friendship to homosexuality. If, as a child, I lusted in that way for any child, male or female, then probably there is something wrong in my life (I lack a close relationship with my father, I have been molested, my mother smothers me, I have been abused, I have seen pornography, etc) because it is not natural, nor is it common, for a child to lust sexually in this way.

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:24 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw,

There are two different things we are talking about here. Yes, I see nothing keeping one such as yourself from engaging in homosexual acts.

I believe I stated that only .5% of females are constitutional homosexuals earliers. A lot of those "bisexuals" probably very likely had some sexual trauma or other stuff in their lives that led them to experiment with people of their own gender.

However, just because that is true doesn't imply that there aren't people who don't have a choice about their sexuality.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/14/2003 7:24 AM (GMT -6)

Seesaw:Research re: Homosexuality Is Not genetic or Inborn & Unchangeable:

*****In the March 1993 edition of the Archives of General Psychiatry (AGP), Drs. William Byne and Bruce Parsons examined past and current claims concluding "there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory. The appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data." [William Byne and Bruce Parsons, "Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised," Archives of General Psychiatry 50 (March 1993): 228-239.]

*****Some researchers have used twin studies in an attempt to determine if there is a biolgical influence, particulary with lesbianism. Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Cancer Institute, who has done studies on homosexuality said, "The best recent study suggests that female sexual identification is more a matter of environment than heredity." The study he is referring to was done by Australian behavioral geneticist Nicolas Martin and Northwestern University psychologist Michael Bailey. [Dean Hamer and Peter Copeland, Living With Our Genes: Why They Matter More than You Think (New York: Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc., 1998), p. 188.]

Using a national registry of twins in Australia, rather than recruiting twins through advertisements in homosexual publications, they studied 1,912 women between the ages of 17 and 50. They found no difference in the rate of lesbianism in monozygotic (identical) or dyzogotic (fraternal) twins. If there were a genetic factor to lesbianism, the incidence of shared lesbianism would be 100 percent in monozygotic twins, who have identical genetic makeup, as opposed to dyzogotic twins, who share about 50 percent of their genetic code. Hamer wrote, "The results showed that for women the main influence on sexual orientation was the shared environment — being raised in the same household by the same parent — while genes seemed to count hardly at all." [Yvette C. Schneider. "The Gay Gene: Going, Going, Gone:. Family Research Council. 2003.-- Yvette is a FORMER lesbian.]

*****In a joint research venture, Hamer’s partner, molecular geneticist Angela Pattatucci, found that lesbianism’s pattern in families was just like that of male homosexuality. [Angela M.L. Pattatucci and Dean H. Hamer, "Development and Familiarity of Sexual Orientation in Females," Behavior Genetics 25 (1995): 407-19, cited in Hamer, ibid., p. 191.]

A woman whose sister was a lesbian had a 6 percent chance of also being a lesbian. Astonishingly, the daughter of a lesbian had a 33 percent chance of being a lesbian. This result is genetically impossible. A mother and her child cannot be more genetically similar than two sisters. "But the pattern we observed could mean only one thing: being a lesbian, or a nonheterosexual woman, was ‘culturally transmitted,’ not inherited," Hamer wrote.

*****Edward Stein, Ph.D., homosexual activist and author of The Mismeasure of Desire: The Science, Theory, and Ethics of Sexual Orientation, critically examines the research of both Hamer and LeVay that claims a biological origin to homosexuality. [Edward Stein, The Mismeasure of Desire: The Science, Theory, and Ethics of Sexual Orientation (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999).]

In an interview with the Advocate (a homosexual magazine), Stein said, "There are serious problems with the science itself. … My training had taught me that a lot of what was being said was, well, highly unscientific." [Michael Bronski, "Blinded by Science," The Advocate, February 1, 2000, p. 64.]

While a number of Stein’s criticisms are similar to those stated above, Stein also explains in his book that none of the researchers studying hypothesized biological origins of homosexuality has proven direct causation, although in some circumstances they claim to have done just that.

*****Stein also has stated: "Genes in themselves cannot directly specify any behavior or psychological phenomenon. Instead, genes direct a particular pattern of RNA synthesis, which in turn may influence the development of psychological dispositions and the expression of behaviors. There are necessarily many intervening pathways between a gene and a disposition or a behavior, and even more intervening variables between a gene and a pattern that involves both thinking and behaving. The terms ‘gay gene’ and ‘homosexual gene’ are, therefore, without meaning. … No one has … presented evidence in support of such a simple and direct link between genes and sexual orientation". [Edward Stein, The Mismeasure of Desire: The Science, Theory, and Ethics of Sexual Orientation (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999).]

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

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