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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 7/6/2003 3:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | Is evil a necesssity? What I mean is, does God require evil to achieve His puposes. Could He acomplish what He wants without it? If He can, then ALL evil is gratuitous, undermining any concept of an omnibenevolent theistic God. Not many here would answer this way.
If HE cannot, then evil is a NECESSITY and you can close this section of the forum. Problem solved.
Perhaps we have become to earthly-minded. Paul, after listing the incredible hardships and suffering he endured, declared these were not even worthy of comparison to the joy that awaited him.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/6/2003 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is evil a necesssity? What I mean is, does God require evil to achieve His puposes.
No! Evil does not come from God. Read the beginning of Job and see where the evil came from.
God can bring good out of evil but this is not proof He causes evil.
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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 7/7/2003 1:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmm...Job eh?
Job 42:11
"Then all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before, came to him, and they ate bread with him and comforted him FOR ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM."
Anyway, you miss my point.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/7/2003 1:25 AM (GMT -6) | | anewbeginning
quote:
Job 42:11
"Then all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before, came to him, and they ate bread with him and comforted him FOR ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM."
Cool, you quote the people God said hadn't spoken correctly about Him.
Job 1:12 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD."
quote:
Anyway, you miss my point.
obviously
quote:
What I mean is, does God require evil to achieve His puposes.
James 1:
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."
So throw away your false premise that God "needs" evil. He may bring good out of an evil situation but that's the dynamic kind of God He is.
"Follow her down to worship some God, who never speaks to me, I wonder it that's odd, then she says, 'You're never listening'"
Edited by - Laika on 07/07/2003 07:51:32 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/7/2003 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | The thing is - according to the free will argument, some evil is indeed a necessary correlation of free choice. You free willers always argue, "God doesn't want any robots." Fine- so evil is the price paid for freedom.
If instead it was possible for God to create free beings who never chose evil, he would have done that, right? B/c then he would retain free will (your highest value) and yet no evil would entail. Since that is not the case, free willers have to argue that evil is a necessary evil if God wants free will.
"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." - John Lennon | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/7/2003 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | The potential for people to create evil is necessary. Evil itself (not a "thing" but a choice) is not necessary.
I never understood where you "classicals" get the idea that sin and evil are "things". "Things" that are inheritable, like it's part of our DNA. Sin and evil are choices, actions, verbs.
"Follow her down to worship some God, who never speaks to me, I wonder it that's odd, then she says, 'You're never listening'"
Edited by - Laika on 07/07/2003 09:28:17 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/7/2003 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, according to the dictionary, "evil" can be a noun, defined as follows:
Main Entry: 2evil
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/7/2003 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Well, according to the dictionary, "evil" can be a noun, defined as follows:
Main Entry: 2evil
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity
So we'll get the CDC going on a cure, a vaccination for it.
"Follow her down to worship some God, who never speaks to me, I wonder it that's odd, then she says, 'You're never listening'" | | Back to Top | | |
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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 7/7/2003 11:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
I quote whomever wrote the book of Job, not "the people God said hadn't spoken correctly about Him."
Job 1:12 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD."
So how does this get God of the hook, as if He needs your rescue.
He is the one who directs Satan toward Job.
Laika:
"So throw away your false premise that God "needs" evil. He may bring good out of an evil situation but that's the dynamic kind of God He is."
Can God create the sort of bride He seeks without the existence of evil?
If He can then evil itself is completely gratuitous. God would obviously be not omnibenevolent.
If He cannot then all evil is explained.
I'm not laying blame at God's, or anyone's, feet. Evil and the suffering it creates is possibly necessary for God to achieve His goals.
If evil is unnecessary, please explain it's continuous rampage in creation. Is God's arm shortened?
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/7/2003 1:30 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't think it is evil that was necessary as much as moral character that was, and moral character (virtue) can only be predicated upon choice of good over evil. With no evil *possibility*, no real virtue (moral character) could exist. God is holy, righteous, and good precisely because he has never chosen evil. (And never will).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/07/2003 6:37:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/8/2003 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | anewbeginning
quote:
Can God create the sort of bride He seeks without the existence of evil?
Can God produce a son who will please Him without that son sinning?
Do I have to burn my hand on the stove in order to learn it's hot? Is failure necessary for us to learn?
One nurse to another: "Check his feet and see if they're cold. No one ever died with warm feet."
Dying man's last words: "John Hus did."
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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 7/8/2003 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Laika
Can God produce a son who will please Him without that son sinning?
God PRODUCED a sinless son. News to me.
quote:
Do I have to burn my hand on the stove in order to learn it's hot? Is failure necessary for us to learn?
Experience certainly changes and developes you. How can you learn anything without it? Everthing you know was learned through your various senses.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/8/2003 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | RD: B/c then he would retain free will (your highest value)…
Tom: As a free-willer I can honestly say free will is not the highest value. I think most others who affirm self-determining free will would agree. What is the highest value? God is the highest value. What is the highest value humans possess and exercise? Love.
Tom
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/8/2003 3:31 PM (GMT -6) | | anewbeginning
quote:
God PRODUCED a sinless son. News to me.
There ya go, God produced a son who lived a life of experiences without ever choosing evil. Proof that evil is not necessary.
One nurse to another: "Check his feet and see if they're cold. No one ever died with warm feet."
Dying man's last words: "John Hus did."
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