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Jewgrass
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 12/19/2001 2:20 PM (GMT -6)

Although I am not an open-theist, I am sympathetic to the theology. I respect Greg Boyd and have defended him and his theology against my highly Calvinistic friends. Unlike many open-theists whose theology seems motivated by wishful thinking (Sanders' incident involving his brother's death fuels his open-view flame. The tendency towards annihilationism in open-theism also shows how many open-theists are motivated by the 'God-is-love-and-only-love' mentality rather than the God is just and holy mentality), Boyd seems to truly get his ideas from scripture, not philosophy.

However, I have become very weary about his latest book, SATAN & THE PROBLEM OF EVIL. I finally got my copy yesterday and read the introduction. In it, Boyd says, "It seems we must either believe that God does not prevent certain events because he chooses not to or because he is unable to. The warfare worldview denies that God always chooses not to intervene, for this would require the belief that there is a specific divine purpose behind everything. Hence the warfare worldview must accept that at least sometimes God is unable to prevent them" (p.16 ). Perhaps I am reading this statement wrong. Perhaps Boyd clarifies his position later in the book. Perhaps not.

Is Boyd saying that the God who is not only able to cause sickness (Exodus 11:4-6), insanity (Daniel 4:31-33) and death (Acts 5:3-5, 9-10) but is able to heal multitudes (Matthew 9:35) and resurrect the dead (Luke 7:11-15) would be unable to stop a rapist from commiting his evil deeds?

Is Boyd saying that the God who is able to make the sun stand still (Joshua 10:12-14) and miraculously teleport humans (Acts 8:39-40) would be unable from preventing a hijaked plane from crashing into a highly populated building?

Is Boyd saying the God whose very name all demons fear (Luke 8:28) is sometimes unable to prevent demonic activity?

Perhaps, instead, there is a divine purpose for allowing evil to happen. As God said through Isaiah, disasters occur to destroy human pride (23:9). God will destroy his enemies and only by his mercy will anyone be spared (Isaiah 27:5). In fact, God even saved Israel for the glory of his own name (Psalm 106:8).

I could be wrong about Boyd's views. I have not yet read past the introduction, but if the line I quoted from Boyd is taken to mean what it sounds like, he is much closer to the man-centered, human-promoting, God-demoting process theology than I ever dreamed.

--Jewgrass

"But prove yourselves doers of the word and not merely hearers who delude themselves." --James 1:22

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 12/19/2001 3:07 PM (GMT -6)

Hmmmm...

I think we'll come out agreeing on this one a bit, JG.

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/19/2001 6:31 PM (GMT -6)

Absolutely not!!! Fellas, there is nothing weak about a God who chooses to restrain Himself! That's the beauty of it! He who could have called 10,000 angels decided NOT TO! He who could have created automatons that mindlessly adored Him chose instead to create real, independent beings with the ability to reject Him completely. This kind of God is not weak. A weaker god would need to strictly control every facet of every decision ever made. Our God shows the greatest form of power: restraint.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Jewgrass
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 12/19/2001 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

Brett says:

quote:

Fellas, there is nothing weak about a God who chooses to restrain Himself! That's the beauty of it! He who could have called 10,000 angels decided NOT TO! He who could have created automatons that mindlessly adored Him chose instead to create real, independent beings with the ability to reject Him completely. This kind of God is not weak. A weaker god would need to strictly control every facet of every decision ever made. Our God shows the greatest form of power: restraint.

And I agree with Brett completely. God can choose to restrain himself just like he can chose to allow evil to happen, but in this section of Satan & the Problem of Evil, Boyd seems to be saying that God is UNABLE to prevent some evil. I'll repeat what Boyd says: "The warfare worldview denies that God always chooses to intervene...[it] must accept that at least sometimes God is unable to prevent [evil from happening]..." (p. 16).

As I said earlier, perhaps I am somehow taking Boyd out of context or misreading him, but it seems obvious that he is argueing that sometimes God can't resist the over-powering will of his free-agents. I've only read the introduction, but I thought this statement was worth posting.

--Jewgrass

"If we only love those who agree with us, we are in fact not loving others at all; we are only loving the assumed rightness of our own ideas." --Greg Boyd

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/19/2001 6:52 PM (GMT -6)

I see what you're saying, Jewgrass. I've actually just begun Satan and the Problem of Evil myself. I have read Doc's other stuff on this, though, and I'm pretty sure that his point here is that God is only "unable" to prevent some acts of evil because He chose to limit Himself that way from the beginning. So yes, I agree with you (as does Doc, I am sure) that God is completely omnipotent. His "inability" to prevent certain things is self-imposed and unilateral. Free will means we can choose evil. If God truly gave us free will, then He also chose to be "unable" to prevent us from choosing evil.

That's my take, anyway. What do you think?

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

n/a
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218

Posted 12/19/2001 7:52 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
"The warfare worldview denies that God always chooses to intervene...[it] must accept that at least sometimes God is unable to prevent [evil from happening]..." (p. 16).

I am kind of lost on what the verse is saying. Was there anything before or after that verse that would give it more support? It does not seem to stand on its own. Have you read God at War? Maybe it stands on some of the material already taught in that, maybe not--I don't own Satan and the Problem With Evil:Constructing a Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy (but I might be getting it for christmas early,before I head to Wisconsin for Christmas, heavy reading on the 19 hour bus trip, praise jesus.)

BJS said:

quote:
though, and I'm pretty sure that his point here is that God is only "unable" to prevent some acts of evil because He chose to limit Himself that way from the beginning. So yes, I agree with you (as does Doc, I am sure) that God is completely omnipotent. His "inability" to prevent certain things is self-imposed and unilateral. Free will means we can choose evil. If God truly gave us free will, then He also chose to be "unable" to prevent us from choosing evil.

I agree with this statement. It is like Doc pointed out in God of the Possible, it is not in Gods nature to do things that are illogical, i.e Know a married Bachelor or a round triangle for instance. I see this in the same way --although I don't know how much freedom I would want to have if it required demons to mess with me--with the problem with evil.
I am so new at theology (maybe a year) so I hope this made sense.

Blessings Bro's and Sis's
Paul

PS "If we only love those who agree with us, we are in fact not loving others at all; we are only loving the assumed rightness of our own ideas." --Greg Boyd
I know this quote (trying to remember)Was it God of the Possible, I think it was. Anyways jewgrass, that is the keeper quote. Thanks holy spirit through doc for thinking up that quote.

Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen

Edited by - faithfullservent on 12/20/2001 01:24:53 AM

Jewgrass
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 12/20/2001 6:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

quote:
"The warfare worldview denies that God always chooses to intervene...[it] must accept that at least sometimes God is unable to prevent [evil from happening]..." (p. 16).

I am kind of lost on what the verse is saying. Was there anything before or after that verse that would give it more support? It does not seem to stand on its own. Have you read God at War? Maybe it stands on some of the material already taught in that, maybe not--I don't own Satan and the Problem With Evil:Constructing a Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy (but I might be getting it for christmas early,before I head to Wisconsin for Christmas, heavy reading on the 19 hour bus trip, praise jesus.)
BJS said:
quote:
though, and I'm pretty sure that his point here is that God is only "unable" to prevent some acts of evil because He chose to limit Himself that way from the beginning. So yes, I agree with you (as does Doc, I am sure) that God is completely omnipotent. His "inability" to prevent certain things is self-imposed and unilateral. Free will means we can choose evil. If God truly gave us free will, then He also chose to be "unable" to prevent us from choosing evil.

I agree with this statement. It is like Doc pointed out in God of the Possible, it is not in Gods nature to do things that are illogical, i.e Know a married Bachelor or a round triangle for instance. I see this in the same way --although I don't know how much freedom I would want to have if it required demons to mess with me--with the problem with evil.
I am so new at theology (maybe a year) so I hope this made sense.
Blessings Bro's and Sis's
Paul

PS "If we only love those who agree with us, we are in fact not loving others at all; we are only loving the assumed rightness of our own ideas." --Greg Boyd
I know this quote (trying to remember)Was it God of the Possible, I think it was. Anyways jewgrass, that is the keeper quote. Thanks holy spirit through doc for thinking up that quote.

Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen

Edited by - faithfullservent on 12/20/2001 01:24:53 AM

"If we only love those who agree with us, we are in fact not loving others at all; we are only loving the assumed rightness of our own ideas." --Greg Boyd

n/a
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218

Posted 12/20/2001 7:14 AM (GMT -6)

I am confused, why did you recopy my post? I think that is funny Jewgrass. God Bless
Pual

Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen

Magneton
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132

Posted 12/20/2001 8:04 AM (GMT -6)

BJS says it well: " God is only "unable" to prevent some acts of evil because He chose to limit Himself that way from the beginning."

I don't think the unable vs. unwilling categories are the best ones to contrast the Blueprint and Warfare worldviews, because the meanings of "unable" and "unwilling" are different from our conventional usage.

I prefer to contrast them by saying that God is constrained by the past (what he has already decided) for the Warfare view, and by the future (what he has planned) for the Blueprint view.

Magneton

It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good. - T. S. Eliot

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 12/20/2001 9:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I prefer to contrast them by saying that God is constrained by the past (what he has already decided) for the Warfare view, and by the future (what he has planned) for the Blueprint view.

Well said.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

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