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Jayme
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 8/25/2002 11:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | In recent months I myself have been increasingly aware in my own life and the lives around me that spiritual warfare is a 'reality' both in the physical 'natural' world and in the 'spiritual' world. I'm skeptical that there is any separation between these 'two' worlds. It seems an artificial separation. Anyway, whatever we deem 'reality', I have a few questions to anyone who reads this post.
My questions revolve around 'deliverance', what it is, and how it can be related to generational sin, and spiritual stronghold's in our lives. How can spiritual stronghold's be destroyed?
I seek answers that are reasonably based on experience and most importantly on Biblical example. It seems to me that too often evengelical Christianity leaves its theological/biblical moorings far behind in the tabliodal persuit driing out demons. I have seen the power of prayer and of discipline in my own life. Prayer can indeed move mountains and destroy strongholds (what is a stronghold anyway?) but there must be more to deliverance than the trite suggestion that 'all you need is a little prayer.'
Book suggestions? I've heard Boyd's books are good, any others?
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/26/2002 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | I think of a "stronghold" as a belief that we hold to even though the consequences of the actions that it produces are negative. They are typically negative beliefs about ourselves that were installed in us at an early age. A particularly egregious example of this is Anorexia. This is caused by a belief that one is fat against all the evidence in front of the person's very eyes.
Strongholds are often generational as the negative beliefs that were installed in our parents get installed into us by our parents. By the time we reach adulthood it is much more difficult for others to install a stronghold in us, although others can certainly reinforce the current stronghold we have. In fact, what is so insidious about a stronghold is that when we have a stronghold we actually unconsciously behave in such a way as to validate that stronghold. Strongholds generate a self-sealing process that reinforce them. The child who is told over and over that they don't deserve to be loved acts in unloving ways. They end up believing that if they act loving and someone loves them back then it is not really them that the person loves. So they go around acting unloving in hope that someone will actually love them. But they are in a catch-22. If they act loving and someone loves them back then that just proves that they are unlovable because the other person is loving them only because they acted loving. And if they act unloving and the person loves them back they will find something that they did that the other person must have felt was loving and that is the real reason that this person loved them back. They will then test this hypothesis by doing something unloving to this same person to see what happens. And sure enough they end up getting an unloving response at some point thereby proving once again that they don't deserve to be loved. This belief will drive very negative behavior and therefore very negative consequences for the person and yet the person will be unaware that it is the very belief itself that is causing the negative results. This is a stronghold. It usually requires someone laying down their life for this person in order to break it. Consistent loving behavior toward this person in the face of an onslaught of very negative behavior will go a long way toward disproving their belief.
I know someone who works with very troubled teenagers. In the face of being verbally and physically abused and even in the face of a death threat this person continued to work with this kid. He was not a doormat and neither did he abuse back. He showed consistent concern and a willingness to put himself on the line for this kid. Unconditional love breaks down strongholds.
The greatest stronghold of them all which actually underlies and generates all of the other specific manifestations of strongholds is outlined in the story of Adam and Eve. It is the original sin. It is the stolen knowledge of good and evil. It is to believe the serpent's lie that to know good and evil is desirable to make one wise. It is to believe that we can know good and evil. It is to believe that we can judge good and evil. And we do it every day. We judge God, we judge ourselves and we judge each other and we are totally unaware of how our judgement is creating death all around us. We are unaware of how we are installing and reinforcing strongholds in ourselves and in other people.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer lays this out in "Ethics" and in "Creation and Fall".
Greg Boyd wrote a book called "Seeing Jesus" which is a practical guide to removing strongholds within ourself. It has not been published but I know it can be purchased at Woodland Hills Church and may be available for purchase on this web site.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 8/26/2002 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Jayme,
I'm glad you are seeking balance.
I recommend Defeating dark angels by Kraft.
Hey Icon,
Nice post, but what the heck are you doing on this thread? You don't even believe in demons!? 
-S
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 8/26/2002 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Springs
Hey Icon,
Nice post, but what the heck are you doing on this thread? You don't even believe in demons!?
Iconoclast
Thanks Springs. What do you mean I don't believe in demons?
Demon = (Greek) "Unseen agent"
I believe in "unseen agents".
But please tell me why you presuppose that a thread on "deliverance" is ONLY about demons???
Or do you secretly agree with me that subconscious processes qualify as "unseen agents"? Epilepsy for example. 
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 8/27/2002 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | I believe what you wrote above would be handy in dealing with subconscious processes, but I don't believe classifying our subconscious processes as unseen agents equates to them being demonic or even comes close to being a substitute for the demonic in general.
Demon
A fallen angel that assists Satan in the opposition of God. Demons are evil (Luke 10:17,18), powerful (Luke 8:29), and under the power of Satan (Matt. 12:24-30). They recognized Christ (Mark 1:23,24) and can possess non-Christians (Matt. 8:29). -CARM Dictionary of Theology.
-Springs
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 8/27/2002 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | I definitely believe both can be demonic. I believe that there are unseen agents(demons/fallen angels) under Satan's control that can influence people(even christians) ...and also as is taught in TNT, I believe that some of our sub-conscious processes are based on demonic wisdom. They are there because our mind has been saturated with the demonic influences of evil through T.V., pornography, greed portrayed in our society etc. and belief installations in our life that the underlying drive of those belief systems is to rob, kill, and destroy.
Then there are the robopathic behaviors(fleshly wisdom, another form of a stronghold) based on the beliefs that were installed as a child that are expressing a legitimate need, but just in an innapropriate way. THis is where the stronghold needs to be replaced with Godly wisdom...and TNT offers a model of methods to do just that.
I have also been involved in a couple of deliverance sessions with people who I am certain were under demonic influence. I will never forget the evil that filled the room, and what these people went through physically, emotionally etc. It was very real, and life changing once I began to understand the power of Jesus' name. It brought complete peace and dispelled all fear and the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong. I had an extreme fear of anything demonic and the Lord took that fear out of my life(something I never dreamed possible) and the same night he called me into deliverance/prayer ministry. I do think it is important to look at the issues a person deals with from all sides...strongholds, mental health issues, and also demonic influence, and to not always be looking for demons around every corner and talking about them all of the time, yet I believe there is a great need for deliverance ministries.
my two cents worth, I'm in a hurry... so I hope this is coherent...
Shelli
Edited by - shell on 08/27/2002 6:25:55 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 8/30/2002 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Some book suggestions:
Dr Neil T Anderson has done a load of good ones:
The Bondage Breaker
Victory over Darkness
And there's more...check out http://www.freedominchrist.com (haven't looked at it myself, but it's the one mentioned on the books)
Tim
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