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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/29/2004 7:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Yes of course lack of faith can sometimes be the reason we don't receive healing; however, what about in cases where the individual's faith is unquestionable?
An important study I think is first of all asking the question what exactly is faith, what im saying is faith that receives from God. You see some interpret faith as merely believing that God is able or that he is powerful enough to do it [bring healing lets say] That however is not faith that generally speaking will bring an answer to prayer. I say this generally speaking for God is sovereign and will do some things an odd time outside of faith. One may believe that Jesus is the Son of God and believe that he died for the sins of the world but the scripture says for as many as received him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God. Faith is not faith unless it reaches out to receive.
After one receives how then will they talk and how will they act. Jesus stated what things so ever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them. Now a good question to ask is if you really believe you receive when you pray how would you talk and how would you act? Wouldn’t you actually talk like you’re healed and act like it as well? We are to believe we receive that is when we pray regardless of what we see or feel. Were not to believe we received it when its become manifested. Anybody can do that. He clearly stated we're to believe we receive when we pray. So its not really that people don’t have strong enough faith. They do have strong faith. Where we miss it is on how one is to release and activate the faith that they do have. [generally speaking I believe this is the problem] 
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billzbob
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 7/29/2004 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | bobber, if i dond understand you, for give me. But, do you mean that you know some people who don't die? | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/29/2004 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
bobber, if i dond understand you, for give me. But, do you mean that you know some people who don't die?
God did not promise you eternal life in a mortal body. He did promise you long, sickness-free life in your mortal body. Read Exodus 23:25-26. Here in the same promise, God said that he would take sickness away from you and that he would fulfill "the number of your days." He did not promise that you would live forever, but he did promise that as long as you are here fulfilling your days, he would take sickness away from you.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/29/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
bobber, if i dond understand you, for give me. But, do you mean that you know some people who don't die?
God did not promise you eternal life in a mortal body. He did promise you long, sickness-free life in your mortal body. Read Exodus 23:25-26. Here in the same promise, God said that he would take sickness away from you and that he would fulfill "the number of your days." He did not promise that you would live forever, but he did promise that as long as you are here fulfilling your days, he would take sickness away from you.
Was this promise not made to those Isrealites of the time? If not, I have a sore back that I take issue with.
Exodus 23:23-26 (NIV)
My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. [24] Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. [25] Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, [26] and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/29/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Was this promise not made to those Isrealites of the time? If not, I have a sore back that I take issue with.
Well for sure it was made to the Isrealities at that time and as well as now, but who do you think you are if you're a Christian. The Bible states you which are Christ are Abrahams seed....Healing belongs to you if you'll just reach out and receive it...Have A Nice Day | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/29/2004 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Was this promise not made to those Isrealites of the time? If not, I have a sore back that I take issue with.
Well for sure it was made to the Isrealities at that time and as well as now, but who do you think you are if you're a Christian. The Bible states you which are Christ are Abrahams seed....Healing belongs to you if you'll just reach out and receive it...Have A Nice Day
I was only joking about my self. Sol is the little girl that reached out, but did not receive healing. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/30/2004 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
He may not yet realize it, but Bobber's "blab it and grab it" "Word of Faith" position on this requires that he blame little Sol and her friends and family for not having faith somehow.
Well to begin with God doesn’t insist that a four year old understand the principals of faith so you can reconsider the charge that im blaming a young child. Im not even blaming in any way shape or form the parents of the child for if perhaps they don’t know a certain thing they don’t know it. The Bible does say that my people perish for lack of knowledge which most certainly does mean that not understanding certain things of our covenant with God can cause us to fall short of the fullness of blessing God want us to have. Well the writer of the thread TGB asks the following questions,
quote:
On the way home from the funeral my kids (ages 17, 13, and 12; the 8 year old was playing G.I. Joe) asked me, "Dad, why didn't God heal Sol? I can't be because there was no prayer or faith. Did he not want to? Did he want to but couldn't?"
After more than two years of studying the open view and dialoging here about evil, providence, and God's will in the world, I was able to tell them, "I really don't know."
I mean, would God's healing Sol have broken some "rule" or infringed upon somebody's frew will? Or was the faith perfectly sufficient but God required Sol's death for some higher purpose. Would the universe have been that much worse off if God had healed her?
Are there ANY answers out there?
Well let me respond to this and no im not a know it all but I would submit there are principals along this line that yes we do know. The children above asked “Did God want to [heal the child] but couldn’t?” Our dear brother stated that he really didn’t know. He asks this board here “Are there ANY answers out there?” I don’t’ know anything about TGB if he’s maybe open to some things which might shock him, I hope that he is, but it’s been my experience of watching this over my 47 years that people in the truest sense of the word don’t want the true answer God does give them. Like I say I trust that’s not the way of TGB.
Is it a cultural thing that nobody ever should even suggest that somebody or a group of people might be wrong in what they’re doing? I don’t know, maybe so. If we look at Jesus however he did this often. In one place a child needed deliverance and remember now the disciples had been given authority to cure and heal all forms of sickness and a man approaches him and tells him "I“brought him to your disciples and they couldn’t heal him.” Well what did Jesus say to him? Something I won’t even dare to repeat here but he did talk to him very straight. Here’s actually what Jesus said about the prayer to receive something from God, what we call the prayer of faith. ‘What things soever you desire when you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them.”
Well some say suggest that it doesn’t really matter how one prays just pray. I would suggest if I might that would be just like Noah saying when he was told the instructions on how to build the Ark “It doesn’t matter how one builds it! Just build it!” Well it really does matter how one builds their prayer life for Jesus was very clear in telling us how to pray. [think of Noahs ark] Well Jesus said we are to believe that we receive when we pray not believe we receive when it becomes manifested. I sure don’t mean to offend anyone but if I might lets keep asking these questions. If we believe we receive when we pray how then from that point of time are we going to talk and how will we act?
I hard question I ask here now but will we go out and keep asking one and all to pray if we have already prayed and believed we received it? If we believed we received it how can we say keep praying that God will do this or that? Well if we believed we received when we prayed would we really do that? Really? I don’t think we really would. Once again no offence. I do appreciate the sensitivity of a subject like this. What we would do if we believe we received when we prayed is that we would offer up thanksgiving to God for what we believe that God has done regardless of what we see. I would suggest we wouldn’t keep asking him. That would be like telling him we don’t believe that we received it.
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/31/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | |
I wonder how big a following the African preacher had. He obviously did not hear from God. I wonder how many people have been released from the deception of this false prophet. I wonder how many other false prophets were humbled. Perhaps many lives have been saved.
Springs
Edited by - Springs on 09/14/2002 11:45:58 PM
Barryatk:
Dear Springs,
Please don't judge this minister and label him a false prophet. He may be, but can you tell from this one second-hand account? Have you gone personally according to Matthew 18 to see if the things said are accurate?
Now TGB, I pray for grace in your circle of friends and family. These are the kinds of incidents that help immensely to bring many to atheism and others to strong belief in Christ. My heart goes out to you and those suffering. There are simply no easy answers. I like to take some comfort in God being our best friend. I have his Word and His Spirit telling me that He fellowships with you and I in every affliction... the ones we have imput into, the ones He has ordained, and even the ones where satan has temporarily gained a deceptive victory. I will not accept anyone's teaching who say God took this child for Himself. I also caution folks to think they need to worry over if they prayed right or had enough faith or if some other tack would have resulted in life for the child. The strongest atheists I read of came from homes and churches that teach dogmatically that "God Is In Control" along with "God IS Going To Do...such and such that we desperately desire"
Again, Believing that God sees into our very soul and mourns and cries tears with us and never forgets our frailties is a great comfort. I know personally pastors who have held dead babies and children and cried for life to return...God revived some, others died. How can we claim to make doctrines about the why's off all this? If I could be there physically I hope I'd have the strength and wisdom and love just to be with you all quietly, supporting by presence. I'd love too to be able to share with your children that God is always good and loving... as much as they could ever imagine and not to allow thoughts of Him taking any pleasure in the dying of a child. Christians too, I would try to explain, have the great blessing and assurance that the daughter will again be returned to life with her family as they all join her in heaven.
Blessings! Mourning with you.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Blessings! Mourning with you.
Barry
Someone please notice that the original post in this thread was: Posted - 09/14/2002 : 05:47:47 AM
So this is all something that happened almost two years ago.
(Thought you might need to know.)
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 7/31/2004 9:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm surprized this wasn't mentioned. The reason that the little girl wasn't healed is because no-one these days is getting healed miraculously. No dilema, no stress, and simple. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/1/2004 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm surprized this wasn't mentioned. The reason that the little girl wasn't healed is because no-one these days is getting healed miraculously. No dilema, no stress, and simple. [Yorzhik]
Well I can't say that I agree with you there Yorzhik for ive seen folks healed with doctors even saying it was a miracle. Jesus also is the same yesterday today and forever and I believe he is just as merciful today as he was at any time, that is if we give him the opportunity to heal us....Have A Nice Day | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2004 9:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
That said, where precisely does Scripture state that it is always God's will to heal us in this life?
Another matter is this: Should we always think that physical healing is a top priority? With St. Anthony, in the 300s, when he came out of his cave after decades he was neither flabby not gaunt. His spirituality had given him inner and outer benifit. But that is a spiritual giant. Most of us neither have the Spirit that much in us. And, if God had "our" priorites of taking care of challenges first all the time, we might miss out on the prayerfulness that we need worse.
A thought. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/3/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Psalm 78:17-18
But they continued to sin against him,
rebelling in the desert against the Most High.
They willfully put God to the test
by demanding the food they craved.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/3/2004 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
I believe in divine healing. I've seen it in my own family and in my own life several times. I take God's promises of healing quite literally.
That said, where precisely does Scripture state that it is always God's will to heal us in this life?
That's actually the wrong question to ask.
Why's that?
quote:
You have admitted that God has made promises of healing. Therefore, the real question is do these promises apply to everyone? If not, then how do we determine who is eligible to appropriate the promises and who is not?
Yes, these apply to everyone; however, while still in these mortal bodies we are by definition subject to, well, uh, mortality.  Do you believe that those who truly believe "will never die," as Jesus said, VW?
quote:
Along with that we must also ask ourselves why God would make a promise but not make it clear during the time He made the promise that He had no intentions of doing it in the case of everyone who decided to take Him at His word.
Again, I have never found anywhere in Scripture where God promises absolute freedom from all sicknesses and diseases for all people in all cases. I do find the promise of a new incorruptible (disease-free and everlasting) resurrected body in the age to come.
Therefore, I affirm that it is always God's will to heal--in the sense of the resurrection body. I also affirm that due to our human finitude, we can rightly pray for healing in all cases, unless God has shown us that His will in this particular case is to relieve the suffering of the sufferer by taking them home to be with Him forever.
As the Wayne Watson song says, "at the ultimate healing, we will be home free."
quote:
If we then begin to question the promises of healing then should we also question His other promises such as salvation, forgiveness, peace, sanctification, etc.?
One can get to heaven without experiencing healing; however, one can not get to heaven without salvation, forgiveness, and sanctification.
Please know, Troy, that I have absolutely no ill-will towards you at all. I do find the Word of Faith perspective on healing to be truth pressed out of measure, and in some cases completely unscriptural (especially with regard to the "Jesus Became a Sinner and Died Spiritually" blasphemy). I have nothing but appreciation for you and your intellect and the love for God's word you display.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/3/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That said, where precisely does Scripture state that it is always God's will to heal us in this life?
Jee
Hi Jee…I would suggest Isaiah 53 :5 makes it very clear when it states“by his stripes we are healed” Someone might exclaim that one just can’t take that verse and state this but would they ever dream of stating the part about sin in the verse wasn’t a clear revelation for all. If one part of the verse states he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities why should we question the last part of the verse?
quote:
Yes, these apply to everyone; however, while still in these mortal bodies we are by definition subject to, well, uh, mortality. Do you believe that those who truly believe "will never die," as Jesus said, VW? [John]
But John does one have to get sick to die? The body ages that’s for sure and the absolute fullness of redemption [the brand new body] will come at the resurrection. Concerning sickness however God promised to his people that he would take sickness away from them. So how does one die? They get old and God takes away their spirit. That is how I believe Moses died and others as well.
quote:
One can get to heaven without experiencing healing; however, one can not get to heaven without salvation, forgiveness, and sanctification.
Well if we were called upon to choose which one we’d rather have salvation from sin or physical healing of the body we for sure would choose spiritual salvation. The question we should ask though is did God call upon us to make such a choice? If he hasn’t why do we go about acting like he has? Why not just thank him and receive all of his mercies? Didn’t he encourage us to come boldly to the throne of his grace to receive grace and mercy in time of need? From the way im seeing it he’s calling us to come and get it. What is healing? Well in real terms it’s a manifestation of mercy. To prove this out the blind man with Jesus called out for mercy, Have mercy on me Son of David” Jesus asked him what is it he wanted or in other words what type of mercy are you asking for. He replied that he might see. Jesus gave him sight. The blind man called out for mercy. Jesus gave it to him. And God tells us to come boldly to the throne of his grace to recieve his grace and mercy in time of need. Shouldn’t we just keep this simple instead of maybe complicating the issue?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/3/2004 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
That said, where precisely does Scripture state that it is always God's will to heal us in this life?
Jee
Hi Jee…I would suggest Isaiah 53 :5 makes it very clear when it states“by his stripes we are healed” Someone might exclaim that one just can’t take that verse and state this but would they ever dream of stating the part about sin in the verse wasn’t a clear revelation for all. If one part of the verse states he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities why should we question the last part of the verse?
"By his stripes we are healed." Yes, amen to that. Who's disputing that point? I categorically affirm that whenever anyone is healed by divine intervention, it is by virtue of His stripes.
quote:
Yes, these apply to everyone; however, while still in these mortal bodies we are by definition subject to, well, uh, mortality. Do you believe that those who truly believe "will never die," as Jesus said, VW? [John]
But John does one have to get sick to die? The body ages that’s for sure and the absolute fullness of redemption [the brand new body] will come at the resurrection.
To die physically there has to be something that causes that physical life to cease. If we had perfect health, as the health and wealth gospel promoters claim, we would never die, for to stop living physically is by definition to have less than perfect health. There is always a cause of death, even in the very elderly who supposedly die "of old age." Well then, if we agree with this premise, one has to wonder how aging is not in and of itself a disease. It certainly is degenerative, and it certainly involves a loss of even normal health, not to mention perfect health. Even when God killed Ananias and Sapphira, we can reasonably assume that: Their hearts stopped beating and their brain stopped functioning, resulting in physical death. So to say that someone doesn't have to be sick to die seems to me to beg the quesion of what it means to be sick.
quote:
One can get to heaven without experiencing healing; however, one can not get to heaven without salvation, forgiveness, and sanctification.
quote:
Well if we were called upon to choose which one we’d rather have salvation from sin or physical healing of the body we for sure would choose spiritual salvation. The question we should ask though is did God call upon us to make such a choice? If he hasn’t why do we go about acting like he has? Why not just thank him and receive all of his mercies? Didn’t he encourage us to come boldly to the throne of his grace to receive grace and mercy in time of need? From the way im seeing it he’s calling us to come and get it. What is healing? Well in real terms it’s a manifestation of mercy. To prove this out the blind man with Jesus called out for mercy, Have mercy on me Son of David” Jesus asked him what is it he wanted or in other words what type of mercy are you asking for. He replied that he might see. Jesus gave him sight. The blind man called out for mercy. Jesus gave it to him. And God tells us to come boldly to the throne of his grace to recieve his grace and mercy in time of need. Shouldn’t we just keep this simple instead of maybe complicating the issue?
In my previous post, I said as plainly as possible that we should in faith ask God for healing, always, unless God has revealed to us that our time is up.
In my experience, it the "word-of-faith" position that is much more complicated when all is said and done. After seeing my share of people suffer and die an apparently untimely death, most all of whome were showing such great faith through their suffering it was simply astounding, and as Scripture nowhere reveals that every instance of healing is meant for this life, I simply will not accept such a spiritually obnoxious opinion as the WoF one which would say to all these people, "You just didn't have enough faith! It's your own fault you're as sick as you are! Snap out of it! Where's your confession?!"
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/3/2004 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
To die physically there has to be something that causes that physical life to cease. If we had perfect health, as the health and wealth gospel promoters claim, we would never die, for to stop living physically is by definition to have less than perfect health. There is always a cause of death, even in the very elderly who supposedly die "of old age." Well then, if we agree with this premise, one has to wonder how aging is not in and of itself a disease. It certainly is degenerative, and it certainly involves a loss of even normal health, not to mention perfect health. Even when God killed Ananias and Sapphira, we can reasonably assume that: Their hearts stopped beating and their brain stopped functioning, resulting in physical death. So to say that someone doesn't have to be sick to die seems to me to beg the quesion of what it means to be sick.
It’s kind of funny how illness works, most people tend to die from their last one. | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 8/3/2004 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
.... where precisely does Scripture state that it is always God's will to heal us in this life?
That's actually the wrong question to ask.
Why's that?
Now John, I do believe that I already explained why, but thank you for the opportunity to further elaborate.
The argument is one from SILENCE. The premise is since the Bible does not say in those exact words "It is always my will to heal" then the argument is that it is not always God's will to heal.
Calvinists use the exact same argument pertaining to "free-will". Their question is "where is the phrase 'free will' found in the Bible." The claim is since it is not there (except in those places that talk about "freewill offerings") then they think they have won the argument because their opponent has no proof that man has free will.
But then you ask them where can you find the word "sovereignty" in defining God as having meticulous control. Outside of the faulty NIV translation, there isn't any.
So now, if one would read the Bible without prejudice, they will find that it is God's will to always heal in this life:
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases (Ps. 103:2, 3)
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14, 15)
These passages leave no doubt that it is always God's will to heal the sick in this lifetime. You call it it "blab it and grab it" (your perogative), but I call it BIBLE 
Now the burden of proof is on you and others to show me where in the Bible does it actually teach that it is NOT always God's will to heal. Betcha can't do it
(P. S., no lame-o "Paul's thorn in the flesh" arguments please. Had enough of those debates).
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Yes, these apply to everyone; however, while still in these mortal bodies we are by definition subject to, well, uh, mortality. Do you believe that those who truly believe "will never die," as Jesus said, VW?
Yes I believe exactly what Jesus said. You are quoting from John 11:26 where Jesus says one verse before that, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25). So it is easily discerned from the context that Jesus is referring to ETERNAL LIFE.
However, you cannot make such a case for those promises in Scripture that talk about BODILY HEALING (in this life on earth). I would challenge you to prove me wrong.
Keep in mind that I am an expert at debating the subject of divine healing. Nevertheless, I still welcome you to try. I could use a good punching bag
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Along with that we must also ask ourselves why God would make a promise but not make it clear during the time He made the promise that He had no intentions of doing it in the case of everyone who decided to take Him at His word.
Again, I have never found anywhere in Scripture where God promises absolute freedom from all sicknesses and diseases for all people in all cases. I do find the promise of a new incorruptible (disease-free and everlasting) resurrected body in the age to come.
Neither have I found such a promise. However, I have found plenty of promises that indicate a full restoration to health in this life and not having to wait in the "sweet by and by" as you would want to argue as seen above. I have shown you two promises (out of several in Scripture) that makes this so abundantly clear that one could only miss it if there illiterate or English is a second language to them.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Therefore, I affirm that it is always God's will to heal--in the sense of the resurrection body.
That's not healing. Healing is a restoration of the body to health. Ressurection is the raising of the body from the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I also affirm that due to our human finitude, we can rightly pray for healing in all cases, unless God has shown us that His will in this particular case is to relieve the suffering of the sufferer by taking them home to be with Him forever.
I am in agreement with you on this point to a certain extent. Unfortunately for many of you here it seems that God's answer is more often "no" than "yes" in the case of divine healing.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
As the Wayne Watson song says, "at the ultimate healing, we will be home free."
If Wayne was talking about Heaven then I disagree with him. Going to Heaven is NOT healing. Healing has to do with the BODY. When we get to Heaven we will not need bodily healing because our bodies will return to dust until the day that Jesus ressurects them.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
If we then begin to question the promises of healing then should we also question His other promises such as salvation, forgiveness, peace, sanctification, etc.?
One can get to heaven without experiencing healing; however, one can not get to heaven without salvation, forgiveness, and sanctification.
True, but that has nothing to do with the issues of God's INTEGRITY. Does He obligate Himself to keep a particular set of promises but feels no obligation to keep some others?
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Please know, Troy, that I have absolutely no ill-will towards you at all. I do find the Word of Faith perspective on healing to be truth pressed out of measure,
The so called "Word of Faith" perspective on healing is nothing different than what was taught in the Faith-Cure Movement of the late 1800s through personalities such as A. B. Simpson, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Andrew Murray, A. J. Gordon, S. D. Gordon, Alexander Dowie (he went nuts later) and many others. It became a staple in the Pentecostal MOvement.
Unfortunately, many Pentecostals are moving away from their roots and calling what they used to believe in as "Word of Faith".
That being said, I know that you have no ill-will towards me personally as I bear none towards you. I have the utmost respect for you but I'm still not cutting you any slack in debating this issue. 
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
.... and in some cases completely unscriptural (especially with regard to the "Jesus Became a Sinner and Died Spiritually" blasphemy).
I think you are confusing the WoF teachers with the great reformer Martin Luther. In his commentary on Galatians he said that Christ became a sinner (see his comments on Gal. 3:13). On the other hand if you read Kenneth Copeland's book "The Blood Covenant" he emphatically teaches that Christ did NOT become a sinner.
However, Christ did become SIN (2 Cor. 5:21).
None of this has to do with divine healing but thought I'd set the record straight on this.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I have nothing but appreciation for you and your intellect and the love for God's word you display.
The feeling's mutual.
But I'm still going to kick your butt
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/3/2004 9:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases (Ps. 103:2, 3)
I unequivocally affirm this scripture, but I don't see any promise in it that guarantees deliverance from all sickness in this life. Indeed, one has to be sick before one can get well. I take this as a promise that we can depend on God to heal us from any and all diseases. However, God is not at our beck and call. He is indeed Lord.
quote:
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14, 15)
These passages leave no doubt that it is always God's will to heal the sick in this lifetime. You call it it "blab it and grab it" (your perogative), but I call it BIBLE
Actually, I call it BIBLE too, Troy. So may I ask, is everyone you pray for healed? Have you ever not been healed in answer to prayer? Do you think that whatever you want God has to give?
quote:
Now the burden of proof is on you and others to show me where in the Bible does it actually teach that it is NOT always God's will to heal. Betcha can't do it
Besides Jesus Christ, yas there ever been a mightier minister of the Gospel than Paul? And yet he said:
Gal 4:13 but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time;
14 and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus {Himself.}
1 Tim 5:23 ¶ No longer drink water {exclusively,} but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
2 Tim 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.
Are we really willing to say that either Paul didn't have enough faith to receive his own healing at Galatia or to bring healing to his sons in ministry? Surely if Paul had the faith and "revelation knowledge" that, say, Kenneth Copeland has, he would have rebuked these lazy bums for not believing God like they should.
Was there ever a greater prophet than Elisha? Not many. And yet we read:
2 Kin 13:14 ¶ When Elisha became sick with the illness of which he was to die, Joash the king of Israel came down to him and wept over him and said, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!"
John Earp
Yes, these apply to everyone; however, while still in these mortal bodies we are by definition subject to, well, uh, mortality. Do you believe that those who truly believe "will never die," as Jesus said, VW?
VW: Yes I believe exactly what Jesus said. You are quoting from John 11:26 where Jesus says one verse before that, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25). So it is easily discerned from the context that Jesus is referring to ETERNAL LIFE.
However, you cannot make such a case for those promises in Scripture that talk about BODILY HEALING (in this life on earth). I would challenge you to prove me wrong.
John I don't guess I get your point here. I agree with you that in this verse Christ is speaking of eternal life. And that is precisely my point--eternal life is something that is not fully realized until we die physically and enter God's heaven.
John Earp
Along with that we must also ask ourselves why God would make a promise but not make it clear during the time He made the promise that He had no intentions of doing it in the case of everyone who decided to take Him at His word.
Again, I have never found anywhere in Scripture where God promises absolute freedom from all sicknesses and diseases for all people in all cases. I do find the promise of a new incorruptible (disease-free and everlasting) resurrected body in the age to come.
VW: Neither have I found such a promise.
John replies: Okay. Glad we agree on that much.
VW: However, I have found plenty of promises that indicate a full restoration to health in this life and not having to wait in the "sweet by and by" as you would want to argue as seen above. I have shown you two promises (out of several in Scripture) that makes this so abundantly clear that one could only miss it if there illiterate or English is a second language to them.
John: Cute...but seriously, I have answered your two promises, and find that they do not promise we freedom from all sickness and disease in this mortal body. In conjunction with the passages I have shown where GIANTS in the faith such as Elisha and Paul apparently were not exempt from all instances of sickness and disease in this life, it seems to me that the scriptural balance is to always pray in faith believing, but never to blame people who aren't healed for whatever reason, unless of course God somehow reveals to us the reason why they weren't healed and it was in fact their fault.
While I certainly commend anyone for trusting God for provision and healing, my main problem with the WoF position is that so easily lends itself to a "me-centered" religion, in which God exists to serve our needs rather than vice versa. Also, my experience with WoF folks has been that they generally are no better off physically or financially (except the preachers).  Further, the strong tendency I have seen in most WoF folks to measure spirituality by material possessions is troubling, to say the least. (But that's another discussion).
John Earp:
Therefore, I affirm that it is always God's will to heal--in the sense of the resurrection body.
VW: That's not healing. Healing is a restoration of the body to health. Ressurection is the raising of the body from the dead.
John: Resurrection is PERFECT and eternal healing. If regenerating a corpse and giving it a perfect, glorified body isn't restoring it to HEALTH and then some, what is?
John Earp:
I also affirm that due to our human finitude, we can rightly pray for healing in all cases, unless God has shown us that His will in this particular case is to relieve the suffering of the sufferer by taking them home to be with Him forever.
VW: I am in agreement with you on this point to a certain extent. Unfortunately for many of you here it seems that God's answer is more often "no" than "yes" in the case of divine healing.
John Interesting. You make this assumption based on what, may I ask? I've seen a good number of notable healings in my life. But that's really neither here nor there when all is said and done, now, is it? Surely we don't need to get into a "my healing's better than your healing" competition, do we? Isn't the fact that Jesus is still the Healer what we ought to magnify?
John Earp
If we then begin to question the promises of healing then should we also question His other promises such as salvation, forgiveness, peace, sanctification, etc.?
One can get to heaven without experiencing healing; however, one can not get to heaven without salvation, forgiveness, and sanctification.
VWTrue, but that has nothing to do with the issues of God's INTEGRITY. Does He obligate Himself to keep a particular set of promises but feels no obligation to keep some others?
John:
I have never maligned or questioned God's integrity on this issue. I REJOICE whenever anyone receives a miracle. It's truly wonderful, and all glory belongs to God for it. One distinct difference between salvation and healing that I see is that salvation is something that we receive upon meeting certain conditions; namely, repentance and faith. Healing, on the other hand, does not seem to be quite so straightforward as that. Of course, it could be the case that I simply haven't heard of anyone walking around these days who has a 100% success rate (or even close) in healing the sick.
John Earp
Please know, Troy, that I have absolutely no ill-will towards you at all. I do find the Word of Faith perspective on healing to be truth pressed out of measure,
VW
The so called "Word of Faith" perspective on healing is nothing different than what was taught in the Faith-Cure Movement of the late 1800s through personalities such as A. B. Simpson, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Andrew Murray, A. J. Gordon, S. D. Gordon, Alexander Dowie (he went nuts later) and many others. It became a staple in the Pentecostal MOvement.
Unfortunately, many Pentecostals are moving away from their roots and calling what they used to believe in as "Word of Faith".
John:
As you may know, my personal spirituality has been profoundly affected by all of the great revivalists of yesteryear that you mention. I have never been content to not know my own heritage (four generations deep in Pentecost). My absolute most favorite topic of study is the great revivalists of years past. I have a profound respect for the ministries of those servants of God you mention.
That said, one key difference I see between them back then and most "big-time" evangelists today is that to the last man (and to the last woman), every one of them emphatically preached, taught, and believed in total surrender to Christ in all things. Nowadays, to lots of people it seems God has become little more than a great big sugar daddy in the sky, whose sole purpose for existence is to make them happy. (I have much personal experience with people just like that--not saying you are like that, Troy, but that lots of people I know and no doubt lots of people you know are precisely that way. No cross, no crown).
John Earp
.... and in some cases completely unscriptural (especially with regard to the "Jesus Became a Sinner and Died Spiritually" blasphemy).
VW
I think you are confusing the WoF teachers with the great reformer Martin Luther. In his commentary on Galatians he said that Christ became a sinner (see his comments on Gal. 3:13). On the other hand if you read Kenneth Copeland's book "The Blood Covenant" he emphatically teaches that Christ did NOT become a sinner.
However, Christ did become SIN (2 Cor. 5:21).
None of this has to do with divine healing but thought I'd set the record straight on this.
John:
Yes, Luther believed in the blood-thirsty, wrathful God that he learned from Augustine's writings. As to 2 Cor. 5:21, many commentators take Paul as referring in context to the "sin offering" that Christ's death was. Such a view of the atonement is in fact typical of all Augustinian/Calvinian theology, but it has never been the dominant understanding of the meaning of Christ's death in what can be called "the free will tradition." Free will theists (Arminians, Wesleyans, etc.) have generally viewed Christ's death as not causing a volitional change in God (Jesus said, I and my Father are ONE), but rather causing a change in those who believe, while at the same time making it possible for God to be "just, and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:26b)
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(All Scriptures NASB)
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/4/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
To die physically there has to be something that causes that physical life to cease.
No offence John but why can’t you just except the scripture from the book of James that the body without the spirit is dead. The spirit of man is like a hand but the physcial body is like a glove. If you take the hand out of the moving glove what happens to the glove. Its dead. There’s no life force in it. According to the scripture you certainly do not need to have something wrong with the body to die. Just take the spirit out. If God can put a spirit in without using sickness and disease he can certainly take one out without using the same.
quote:
Even when God killed Ananias and Sapphira, we can reasonably assume that: Their hearts stopped beating and their brain stopped functioning, resulting in physical death. So to say that someone doesn't have to be sick to die seems to me to beg the question of what it means to be sick.
Actually Anais and Sapphira are a example of what were meaning that a person can die without some sickness or disease. Contrary to what you’re saying John when a person has fulfilled the number of their days God can take their sprits out of their body. God doesn’t need sickness or disease to do this. To suggest he does actually runs contrary to what James says when he stated the body without the spirit is dead.
quote:
I simply will not accept such a spiritually obnoxious opinion as the WoF one which would say to all these people, "You just didn't have enough faith! It's your own fault you're as sick as you are! Snap out of it! Where's your confession?!"
Well many things could be said about that last statement John but how do you know or for sure that God might not inspirie a certain one to declare to another that they might not just be knowing how to release their faith qutie right? How come is it we get so offended or get our feathers ruffled if the how were releasing our faith is challenged? What aboutif is say someone outside of the Lord kept saying over and over “I hope some day that I’ll be saved!” If you loved them and cared about them wouldn’t you seek to convince him that he might just be approaching the Christian faith issue somewhat off qulter?
Wouldn’t you tell him were not just to hope we’re saved but rather we go through the instructions to receiving the Lord Jesus Christ? What How would you respond to one who made charges about you that you’re obnoxious by your stating the only reason you’re still unsaved is because they haven’t’ received the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you being obnoxious? No. You’re really caring about the other And also ive seen very very few people among as you put it the Word Of Faith who show forth the type of attitude you describe above.
Ive seen a great many folks however which will not accept even the possibility that they don’t know all about the subject of a faith that they think they know and I find that very sad. The idea of some is never talk about faith, what it is and how to make use of it.It seems like if one even speaks of the powerful verse on prayer to receive something, what things sever you desire wen you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them. Well some don’t even like what Jesus said about prayer being spoken of…it makes them quite mad. They say that’s WOF teaching but my Bible has that as the teaching of the Lords Jesus Christ. Anyway everyone have a nice day.
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