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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 8/4/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | John (or Jee)
I won't respond to all of your post due to time constraints and the fact that few people are patient enough to read lengthy posts. I might consider breaking my response into several posts.
Anyway, you seem to be promoting some misconceptions about the Word-Faith Movement that you would not tolerate coming from opponents of the OV. Because I think of you as a good friend and one who has been a big help to me in the past, I will go easy on you 
Well .... maybe NOT 
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases (Ps. 103:2, 3)
I unequivocally affirm this scripture, but I don't see any promise in it that guarantees deliverance from all sickness in this life.
Then we would have to assume that God speaks in CRYPTIC language and does not mean exactly what He plainly had inspired to be written. It is then left to each one to interpret God's words for themselves, in spite of the plain visible meaning of them.
Because I believe that God means exactly what He says, I could not accept this position.
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Indeed, one has to be sick before one can get well. I take this as a promise that we can depend on God to heal us from any and all diseases. However, God is not at our beck and call. He is indeed Lord.
Here is one of the misconceptions that I stated to you in an earlier post. You seem to believe that the WoF teaches that God is a "cosmic bellhop" (as some WoF critics assume). For you to make this presumption concerning WoF teaching is the same as OV opponents claiming that the OV believes that God makes mistakes. You and I both agree that this is a misrepresentation of the OV. Yet you are applying this same misconception that anti-OVers use.
Many WoFers that I am aware of teach that Jesus is Lord and that God is to be OBEYED. The blessings come from faithfulness and obedience. I find it ironic that the some critics will claim that WoFers have made God out to be some kind of servent and others will claim that though WoF teaches obedience, we teach it only to be rewarded. It seems the WoF can't winone way or the other 
The fact is though that God certainly is not at our "beck and call" but He did say, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:14). God is no different then any other FATHER. He makes a promise and in His holiness and integrity He does not back out on them (Matt. 7:7-11; Ps. 89:33-35; Titus 1:1-2). Furthermore, God always answers YES to His promises and invites us to enquire to Him concerning them (2 Cor. 1:20; Isa. 43:25, 26; Ezek. 36:37).
Let me give you an example. I promised my kids that I will take them to see Spiderman 2 next week. They have reminded of this promise daily. Is my children's holding me to a promise that I made to them making me their "servent"? Heaven's NO! I still expect obedience out of my children and there are consequences for not doing so. But at the same time If I told my children that I would do something for them then they have every right to hold me to it.
Is God not a better Father with even more integrity than us mere humans?
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14, 15)
These passages leave no doubt that it is always God's will to heal the sick in this lifetime. You call it it "blab it and grab it" (your perogative), but I call it BIBLE
Actually, I call it BIBLE too, Troy. So may I ask, is everyone you pray for healed?
No, but my SUCCESSES outnumber my FAILURES!!! If I allowed myself to get discouraged due to failures then I would never pray for the sick.
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Have you ever not been healed in answer to prayer?
By God's marvelous grace and abundant mercy I have NEVER failed to receive healing in answer to prayer. NEVER.
On some occasions God has had to deal with me about why I was sick (lack of exercise, dieting, etc.) but I have never failed to appropriate healing when I have OBEYED God.
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Do you think that whatever you want God has to give?
If I am an obedient child and I live in accordance with His Word, and whatever I ask for is in line with His Word, then yes, I expect my Heavenly Father to give me whatever I want:
Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. (Psalm 37:4)
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. (Mark 11:24)
Again, the condition being that it is in accordance with the will of God (1 John 5:14, 15). The WORD of God rveals the WILL of God. If healing of my body is what I want, and it is promised, then the Bible says that I can have this desire of my heart.
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Now the burden of proof is on you and others to show me where in the Bible does it actually teach that it is NOT always God's will to heal. Betcha can't do it
Besides Jesus Christ, yas there ever been a mightier minister of the Gospel than Paul? And yet he said:
Gal 4:13 but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time;
14 and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus {Himself.}
Quite selective in what translations you want to use, eh John?
Many translations use the word "weakness" rather than "bodily sickness" or ailment. Aside from going through a battle of English translations, Greek Scholars who all differ on what the correct translation of that word is, and differing commentaries, we should look at the fact that even if it were the case that Paul was sick, who says that He stayed that way. There is not one mention of it in the book of Acts nor is it mentioned anywhere in his epistles. So this cannot be used as a case for saying that God does not heal.
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
1 Tim 5:23 ¶ No longer drink water {exclusively,} but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
2 Tim 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.[
Are we really willing to say that either Paul didn't have enough faith to receive his own healing at Galatia or to bring healing to his sons in ministry?
Faith is not only a matter between the minister praying for the sick but also the one receiving. A. B. Simpson well said, "Well, we do not claim that Paul had any power to heal Trophimus, or that anybody has such power now. It was a matter between Trophimus and his God." (from his book, The Lord for the Body)
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Surely if Paul had the faith and "revelation knowledge" that, say, Kenneth Copeland has, he would have rebuked these lazy bums for not believing God like they should.
Now John, you seem to be displaying the classic misunderstanding of what is meant by "revelation knowledge." I am sure that you have read books by Watchman Nee, Andrew Murray, and Oswald Chambers. Do you know that Oswald Chambers (as well as the two aforementioned ones) believed that faith came by "revelation knowledge".
Many opponents of the WoF presnt this as some form of gnosticism (as they like to present OV teaching as some form of Socinianism) but in fact it is nothing more than Paul's teaching in Eph. 1:17, 18.
I'm not here to defend Kenneth Copeland so let's leave him out of this and stick with God's Word (I know, I brought him up in a previous post but that was for the purpose of dealing with a misconception).
Besides, would you enjoy it when determinists bring you a whole bunch of passages from Paul on "election" and "predestination" and then accuse John Sanders and Greg Boyd of accusing Paul that he was wrong for believing that God possessed exhaustive foreknowledge?
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Was there ever a greater prophet than Elisha? Not many. And yet we read:
2 Kin 13:14 ¶ When Elisha became sick with the illness of which he was to die, Joash the king of Israel came down to him and wept over him and said, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!"
Now, one can use such instances in a POSITIVE or NEGATIVE way. You use the instance of Elisha to make some vain attempt to refute the belief that God will always heal in answer to prayer. I often like to point to Elisha to show that sometimes, even the most anointed men of God with the greatest teaching and healing ministries can sometime fail to receive.
That still doesn't make it God's will.
I admire Paul, and though I doubt (as you contend) that he was sick as the particular translation of Gal. 4:13 that you used tries to portray, or that he failed to receive healing if this were true, and though I admire Elisha, the pattern to measure up to is JESUS, not Paul or Elisha. Paul and Elisha were both MEN who possessed FLAWS. Better men than most but still men with FLAWS. Jesus was sinless. I want to live sin free so I measure my life after Him. Jesus is never recorded to have been sick and never failed to get others healed. I measure my life after Him.
I can use dozens of people recorded in the Bible to show that not everyone got saved. Does that mean that salvation is not always the will of God, in spite of such passages as 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9?
This was interesting and fun, but I have to go. Perhaps I will deal with the rest later. Ta-Ta 
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2004 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases (Ps. 103:2, 3)
I unequivocally affirm this scripture, but I don't see any promise in it that guarantees deliverance from all sickness in this life.
Then we would have to assume that God speaks in CRYPTIC language and does not mean exactly what He plainly had inspired to be written. It is then left to each one to interpret God's words for themselves, in spite of the plain visible meaning of them.
I unequivocally affirm this scripture. The fact that you disagree with my interpretation and application of it does not refute the fact that I do indeed affirm it as true.
(Troy, I am quite disappointed by what seems to me to be the sarcastic tone you have now adopted. I have no interest in such childish behavior. It is unnecessary and quite unhelpful. Surely you and I have a good enough friendship to be above such attitudes).
VW:
Because I believe that God means exactly what He says, I could not accept this position.
John:
I "believe that God means exactly what He says," too. Our difference lies in the interpretation and application of what God is saying in this verse. So do you or do you not affirm that the true believer is guaranteed freedom from all sickness in this life? (A simple yes or now will suffice).
JEE
Indeed, one has to be sick before one can get well. I take this as a promise that we can depend on God to heal us from any and all diseases. However, God is not at our beck and call. He is indeed Lord.
VW
Here is one of the misconceptions that I stated to you in an earlier post. You seem to believe that the WoF teaches that God is a "cosmic bellhop" (as some WoF critics assume). For you to make this presumption concerning WoF teaching is the same as OV opponents claiming that the OV believes that God makes mistakes. You and I both agree that this is a misrepresentation of the OV. Yet you are applying this same misconception that anti-OVers use.
Many WoFers that I am aware of teach that Jesus is Lord and that God is to be OBEYED. The blessings come from faithfulness and obedience. I find it ironic that the some critics will claim that WoFers have made God out to be some kind of servent and others will claim that though WoF teaches obedience, we teach it only to be rewarded. It seems the WoF can't winone way or the other
The fact is though that God certainly is not at our "beck and call" but He did say, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:14). God is no different then any other FATHER. He makes a promise and in His holiness and integrity He does not back out on them (Matt. 7:7-11; Ps. 89:33-35; Titus 1:1-2). Furthermore, God always answers YES to His promises and invites us to enquire to Him concerning them (2 Cor. 1:20; Isa. 43:25, 26; Ezek. 36:37).
Let me give you an example. I promised my kids that I will take them to see Spiderman 2 next week. They have reminded of this promise daily. Is my children's holding me to a promise that I made to them making me their "servent"? Heaven's NO! I still expect obedience out of my children and there are consequences for not doing so. But at the same time If I told my children that I would do something for them then they have every right to hold me to it.
Is God not a better Father with even more integrity than us mere humans?
John/JEE
I have no problem with this approach to faith, Troy. As long as we keep in mind that He is God and we are not, and that He is LORD and that we are not, the Bible does promise we can ask what we will and it shall be done. Amen. The rub is making sure our wills are totally submitted to His.
JEE
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14, 15)
These passages leave no doubt that it is always God's will to heal the sick in this lifetime. You call it it "blab it and grab it" (your perogative), but I call it BIBLE
Actually, I call it BIBLE too, Troy. So may I ask, is everyone you pray for healed?[
VW
No, but my SUCCESSES outnumber my FAILURES!!! If I allowed myself to get discouraged due to failures then I would never pray for the sick.
John:
That's truly great to hear. (By the way, I'm definitely not discouraged to pray for the sick--I do so quite regularly, and have seen some results, though no doubt not nearly as many as you. While you're at it, pray for my chronic allergies wouldya? I'm serious). 
VW
Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. (Psalm 37:4)
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. (Mark 11:24)
Again, the condition being that it is in accordance with the will of God (1 John 5:14, 15). The WORD of God rveals the WILL of God. If healing of my body is what I want, and it is promised, then the Bible says that I can have this desire of my heart.
John:
When God is our DELIGHT, God IS the chief desire of our heart. Delighting ourself in Him is the same thing as fully giving ourselves to Him and his service. Likewise, asking anything in His name by definition means in his will, in keeping with His character. If one were to abuse a trust fund they had access to, they would not be acting "in the name of" the owner of account.
VW:
Quite selective in what translations you want to use, eh John?
John
I generally use either the NASB, NRSV, NKJV, or Amplified. So who's not selective about what translations they use? I certainly was not trying to bias the discussion at all by using the NASB. From what I know, the NASB is a very good conservative evangelical translation.
VW
Besides, would you enjoy it when determinists bring you a whole bunch of passages from Paul on "election" and "predestination" and then accuse John Sanders and Greg Boyd of accusing Paul that he was wrong for believing that God possessed exhaustive foreknowledge?
John
One need not be an Open Theist to have a good answer for the deterministic view of election and predestination. R.L. Shank, an classical Arminian, did a masterful job refuting Calvinistic election/predestination back in the 1970s with his Elect in the Son. So no, I'm not afraid of the big bad wolf of election/predestination. 
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/4/2004 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
I'm surprized this wasn't mentioned. The reason that the little girl wasn't healed is because no-one these days is getting healed miraculously. No dilema, no stress, and simple. [Yorzhik]
Well I can't say that I agree with you there Yorzhik for ive seen folks healed with doctors even saying it was a miracle. Jesus also is the same yesterday today and forever and I believe he is just as merciful today as he was at any time, that is if we give him the opportunity to heal us....Have A Nice Day 
It's all fine to claim it, but even the doctors that say "it is a miracle" cannot show compelling evidence that it was. Also, when pressed about why they said "it was a miracle", they claim they meant it was "just amazing". If you think otherwise, then please provide the evidence.
Beyond that, the bible states the miraculous healings that Paul was involved with. But yet, Timothy wasn't healed, and neither was Trophimus.
And here is another question. What is the most common response to God performing a miracle (recorded miracles in the bible, not the hearsay anecdotes of today)? | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 8/5/2004 2:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
(Troy, I am quite disappointed by what seems to me to be the sarcastic tone you have now adopted. I have no interest in such childish behavior. It is unnecessary and quite unhelpful. Surely you and I have a good enough friendship to be above such attitudes).
John
I felt I was using WIT, not sarcasm. Thus at times I used the emoticons so that I would not be seen as being angry or contentious. Sorry if I offended you John.
However, since this is now beginning to become somewhat PERSONAL with you, I will have to admit that I am a slight bit disappointed at some of the stereotypical language you used concerning the Word-Faith Movement, though I tried (perhaps unsuccessfully) to take it with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, I would have thought that OVers of all people would not do such being how they have been stereotyped and misrepresented by other Christians.
No one has to agree with a particular theological mindset, be it Word-Faith, OV, Pentecostalism, Calvinism, etc. but one should attempt to represent one's opponent well in a debate. However, I do find it strange how I had not visited this site for sometime and when I decided to take a look I see this debate on healing and some of the comments. Regardless of my views on the subject, I probably would have just lurked and not commented had I not seen your "blab it and grab it" statement. Instead of getting offended though, I thought I would have a little fun. Unfortunately, YOU have become offended.
This is one of the main reasons I try to stick to debating the WORD and not so much movements an theological positions. It seems to always turn personal when one feels that their position is being attacked.
What's so funny is that I am not in agreement with EVERY SINGLE THING taught in either WoF or OV, but I have referred to myself as a WoFer and an OVer depending on the subject under discussion. I easily identify with a movement or a position that I find consistent with Scripture and will stand up for it even if I am not in 100% agreement with all that is taught by it's proponents.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
That's truly great to hear. (By the way, I'm definitely not discouraged to pray for the sick--I do so quite regularly, and have seen some results, though no doubt not nearly as many as you. While you're at it, pray for my chronic allergies wouldya? I'm serious).
You got it.
However, I along with prayer, here is where I make personal application of such passages as the "Timothy take a little wine for thy stomache's sake." I suffered some allergies myself. I found that I had to stay away from certain foods (too much sugar hurts the immune system for example), drink lots more water, and take vitamins, most of all, vitamin C.
I have been alergy free when doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
VW
Besides, would you enjoy it when determinists bring you a whole bunch of passages from Paul on "election" and "predestination" and then accuse John Sanders and Greg Boyd of accusing Paul that he was wrong for believing that God possessed exhaustive foreknowledge?
John
One need not be an Open Theist to have a good answer for the deterministic view of election and predestination. R.L. Shank, an classical Arminian, did a masterful job refuting Calvinistic election/predestination back in the 1970s with his Elect in the Son. So no, I'm not afraid of the big bad wolf of election/predestination.
I think you missed my point, but it's not important.
I had trouble reading Shank's book, "Elect In The Son". It was not as easily written as his first book, "Life In The Son." Good refutation of the extreme OSAS position though I cannot say that I am in full agreement with all of Shank's conclusions.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/5/2004 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It's all fine to claim it, but even the doctors that say "it is a Beyond that, the bible states the miraculous healings that Paul was involved with. But yet, Timothy wasn't healed, and neither was Trophimus.
I believe our good friend Victory has given an answer to your concern about Timothy, and about Trophimus? He's the one that Paul said he left sick in a certain place? Well what of it? Does this mean or prove it was not Gods perfect will for him to be healed. If that's what it means that simply because its reported that it occured, that it must have been Gods will then we're left to conclude all other things as well must therefore be Gods will. That would mean things like adultery because its reported David committed such. Must have been Gods will then? Or how about showing hypocrisy which Peter did when he was in Galatia, by leaving a wrong impression about circumsision. Paul we know rebuked him. So that must be the will of God for us to show hypocrisy for well...its stated that Peter did? Just because the scripture reveals what some peoples experience was does not have anything to do with what their rights are in Christ Jesus...I would submit that is a totally different subject.
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/10/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
It's all fine to claim it, but even the doctors that say "it is a Beyond that, the bible states the miraculous healings that Paul was involved with. But yet, Timothy wasn't healed, and neither was Trophimus.
I believe our good friend Victory has given an answer to your concern about Timothy, and about Trophimus? He's the one that Paul said he left sick in a certain place? Well what of it? Does this mean or prove it was not Gods perfect will for him to be healed. If that's what it means that simply because its reported that it occured, that it must have been Gods will then we're left to conclude all other things as well must therefore be Gods will. That would mean things like adultery because its reported David committed such. Must have been Gods will then? Or how about showing hypocrisy which Peter did when he was in Galatia, by leaving a wrong impression about circumsision. Paul we know rebuked him. So that must be the will of God for us to show hypocrisy for well...its stated that Peter did? Just because the scripture reveals what some peoples experience was does not have anything to do with what their rights are in Christ Jesus...I would submit that is a totally different subject.
Wow. What a straw man. You are correct, it's a totally different subject that we aren't even talking about.
The point is that those were not healed, and it wasn't a lack of faith, and it wasn't what you'd expect from Paul's history.
And, although you didn't respond to this, there is no doctor that can provide proof of a miracle healing today.
Also, something else you didn't respond to, what is the normal reaction to a miracle in the bible? | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/11/2004 2:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The point is that those were not healed, and it wasn't a lack of faith, and it wasn't what you'd expect from Paul's history. quote:
Well form the point in time that we read no they weren't. But how do you know for an absolute fact the healing miracle didn't later become manifested. The fact is you don't know. An neither do I know the other to say they were healed. But really how do you know it wasn't a lack [let me put it this way]a lack of putting their faith in motion that cause them not to receive their healing? How do you know it wasn't this? All we know is that it states they weren't healed or perhaps that it hadn't become manifested from the time of the writing. And you state its not something that we would expect from Pauls history? Not sure I know what you mean about this, but scripture does state in one place that Jesus could there in his home town do no mighty works of healing because of their unbelief. So how can you suggest that there weren't people who stayed afflicted because of not believing God or releasing their faith right? The scriptures I believe state there were.
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/12/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
The point is that those were not healed, and it wasn't a lack of faith, and it wasn't what you'd expect from Paul's history. quote:
Well form the point in time that we read no they weren't. But how do you know for an absolute fact the healing miracle didn't later become manifested. The fact is you don't know. An neither do I know the other to say they were healed. But really how do you know it wasn't a lack [let me put it this way]a lack of putting their faith in motion that cause them not to receive their healing? How do you know it wasn't this? All we know is that it states they weren't healed or perhaps that it hadn't become manifested from the time of the writing. And you state its not something that we would expect from Pauls history? Not sure I know what you mean about this, but scripture does state in one place that Jesus could there in his home town do no mighty works of healing because of their unbelief. So how can you suggest that there weren't people who stayed afflicted because of not believing God or releasing their faith right? The scriptures I believe state there were.
So you would discount this account based on ignorance? That we don't know if there was a healing, actually? Even though there wasn't ever a delayed healing with Paul ever recorded?
The faith of a person healed was never mentioned with most of Paul's other healings. But faith IS mentioned with Timothy. So who didn't have faith, was it Paul or Timothy?
What is the "right way" to release one's faith, and why didn't Paul tell Timothy this method? Maybe Paul didn't know the "right way" to release one's faith. What is "releasing one's faith"?!?!
Also, do you have an answer to the question of the most frequent response to miracles recorded in the bible? | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/12/2004 3:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So you would discount this account based on ignorance?
I never discounted the fact that the Bible states these two individuals were sick. What I discounted is the suggestion that we know for an absolute fact that they never did get healed or well.
quote:
That we don't know if there was a healing, actually? Even though there wasn't ever a delayed healing with Paul ever recorded?
Well there certainly was with the disciples of Jesus Christ as outlined in Matthew 10:1 where it states God had given them authority over demons and sickness and yet there came a place where they failed to operate in faith to bring a healing manifestation. If Jesus own disciples failed to cause a healing manifestation to take place that is through Gods power and grace which is received by faith [See Matt 17] then why should you think two other disciples of Jesus might not fail as well to receive their own healing? Is it that we’re so afraid to admitting that we might be missing that we most certainly would never make the same mistakes that they made?
quote:
The faith of a person healed was never mentioned with most of Paul's other healings.
Not totally true for what do we read in Acts 14:8 Paul declared to a crippled man faith to be healed.. In Lystra there was a man sitting who could not use his feet and had never walked, for he had been crippled from birth. 9He listened to Paul as he was speaking. And Paul, looking at him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10said in a loud voice, ‘Stand upright on your feet.’ And the man sprang up and began to walk.So there we see the man had faith to be healed and it was considered an imperative for being healed. But not only that he also had to act upon the faith….by standing upright on his feet which was a decision and an act of his will to do. Not just faith but acting with ones faith.
quote:
What is the "right way" to release one's faith, and why didn't Paul tell Timothy this method? Maybe Paul didn't know the "right way" to release one's faith. What is "releasing one's faith"?!?!
Well first of all ive never stated that faith [not releasing it correctly] is the only reason someone might not be healed. Scripture states a variety of reasons why healing may not become manifested and its up to each individual to judge himself and to pray to God for the wisdom of the why, that is in their particular case. Bible teachers can teach the principals however of why people in general fail to see their healing manifested .
Concerning receiving something by faith however Jesus taught I us how to do that in Mark 11:24 and that is what things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them. Most Christians however I think rebel against this clear teaching. They will not believe they receive something when they pray…..they’ll only believe something once they see it manifested. Was this Timothy or Trophimus’s problem? I don’t know. But there is nothing to say that it couldn’t have been the case.
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/13/2004 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Excuse typos, this was written quickly.
quote:
quote:
Yorzhik wrote:
So you would discount this account based on ignorance?
Originally posted by Bobber
I never discounted the fact that the Bible states these two individuals were sick. What I discounted is the suggestion that we know for an absolute fact that they never did get healed or well.
Obviously I wouldn't be saying that you didn't believe that there were sick people mentioned here in the bible. What I am saying is that you discount the implications of the written text. The principles were not healed, despite being close to one of the most prolific healers in the bible. You base your belief on ignorance, what we don't know, rather than what we know is written about the events.
But I'll go one further. I suggest that the bible implies that Timothy was not ever healed miraculously:
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
Quite simply, the language above is used by those who don't expect to get healed.
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Yorzhik wrote:That we don't know if there was a healing, actually? Even though there wasn't ever a delayed healing with Paul ever recorded?
Originally posted by Bobber
Well there certainly was with the disciples of Jesus Christ as outlined in Matthew 10:1 where it states God had given them authority over demons and sickness and yet there came a place where they failed to operate in faith to bring a healing manifestation. If Jesus own disciples failed to cause a healing manifestation to take place that is through Gods power and grace which is received by faith [See Matt 17] then why should you think two other disciples of Jesus might not fail as well to receive their own healing? Is it that we’re so afraid to admitting that we might be missing that we most certainly would never make the same mistakes that they made?
But the mistake/failure isn't even hinted at in either situation. To rely on a mistake/failure on the part of Paul or Timothy is relying on something that isn't in the text. Especially when the precedent you cite is, by Christ's description, is a special case. Omitting special case conditions is bad communication, and God normally doesn't do that.
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Yorzhik wrote:The faith of a person healed was never mentioned with most of Paul's other healings.
Originally posted by Bobber
Not totally true for what do we read in Acts 14:8 Paul declared to a crippled man faith to be healed.. In Lystra there was a man sitting who could not use his feet and had never walked, for he had been crippled from birth. 9He listened to Paul as he was speaking. And Paul, looking at him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, 10said in a loud voice, ‘Stand upright on your feet.’ And the man sprang up and began to walk.So there we see the man had faith to be healed and it was considered an imperative for being healed. But not only that he also had to act upon the faith….by standing upright on his feet which was a decision and an act of his will to do. Not just faith but acting with ones faith.
No, it's totally true. If you add up all the cases where Paul did miraculous healing, the faith the person being healed was usually not mentioned. I know it was mentioned sometimes, as you have cited, and that is why I used the word "most".
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Yorzhik wrote: What is the "right way" to release one's faith, and why didn't Paul tell Timothy this method? Maybe Paul didn't know the "right way" to release one's faith. What is "releasing one's faith"?!?!
Originally posted by Bobber
Well first of all ive never stated that faith [not releasing it correctly] is the only reason someone might not be healed.
I never said you did, either. Be careful of the straw men that seem to be creeping nearby.
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Originally posted by Bobber
Scripture states a variety of reasons why healing may not become manifested and its up to each individual to judge himself and to pray to God for the wisdom of the why, that is in their particular case. Bible teachers can teach the principals however of why people in general fail to see their healing manifested .
Concerning receiving something by faith however Jesus taught I us how to do that in Mark 11:24 and that is what things soever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them. Most Christians however I think rebel against this clear teaching. They will not believe they receive something when they pray…..they’ll only believe something once they see it manifested. Was this Timothy or Trophimus’s problem? I don’t know. But there is nothing to say that it couldn’t have been the case.
If you don't know, then why claim it as a possibility. If there is nothing to say (_whatever_) couldn't have been the case, you, at best, are hurting your witness, and at worst are free to re-write the bible.
And hurting our witness is so common, because no-one actually gets healed miraculously with any evidence. Again, every doctor that has been pressed after stating something was a miracle, never supplies evidence and/or backpedals to a revise "miracle" to "amazing".
But I'll go even further, I'm going to state that you don't even believe in miraculous healing. Let me ask, if you had your finger cut off, would you take it to a doctor to sew it back on, or pray that it be healed? | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/14/2004 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Obviously I wouldn't be saying that you didn't believe that there were sick people mentioned here in the bible. What I am saying is that you discount the implications of the written text. [Yorzhik]
I discount the implications of the written text? How can that be worse then discounting the clear declarations of scriptures that by the str4ipes of Jesus were are healed? [Isaiah 53] That statement is right along side with the verses about forgiveness of sins so there we’re dealing with very clear cut statements that by the stripes of Jesus we are healed.
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The principles were not healed, despite being close to one of the most prolific healers in the bible. [Yorzhik]
And what about Jesus then? Wasn’t he considered not just one of but rather the most prolific healer in the Bible? Was he always able to heal people? Most certainly but its stated very clearly that he could not heal certain people because of their unbelief. If that was true with Jesus why do you think it wouldn’t be true with Paul?
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You base your belief on ignorance, what we don't know, rather than what we know is written about the events. [Yorzhik]
Well I would say no that it is rather your position which is making claims bases on ignorance. The only thing we do know is that scriptures states in the writings of Paul, there were two disciples which didn’t receive the manifestation of healing. There is nothing to say that God would not heal them and one can speak of what they think of the implications of a text all they want but it doesn’t do away with the clear teaching that by the str5ipes of Jesus we are healed.
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If you don't know, then why claim it as a possibility. [Yorzhik]
Because it could very well be a possibility in light of the fact that many were not healed even in the ministry of Jesus because of unbelief. The problem I would suggest with your position is you make a doctrine which goes this way that its not always Gods will to heal but there is no absolute proof to back up this claim. [IMO]
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But I'll go even further, I'm going to state that you don't even believe in miraculous healing. Let me ask, if you had your finger cut off, would you take it to a doctor to sew it back on, or pray that it be healed? [Yorzhik]
Well I admit if I had the finger right there I’d probably do what most naturally would think to do and that is see a doctor. Well does that mean im choosing to walk in a little bit of unbelief? Well maybe. That might be something I might need to repent of but I’ll tell you this if the finger was destroyed I wouldn’t go whimpering about not seeking to release my faith for God to grow another one. Impossible? Well most certainly for the one which chooses to think it is. Jesus already stated all things are possible to him that believeth in other words its not possible to the one which chooses not to release their faith. That we do know. And please don’t suggest to me God doesn’t do creative miracles today for you’re already too late. Ive known folks which a have received creative miracles….but I even if I didn’t know anyone…that means nothing…..Jesus said God power couldn’t heal many lepers at all in Elisha's day except one….but it was Gods will to heal all the time….the people missed it because of there unwillingness to believe, or to receive their healing.
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No, it's totally true. If you add up all the cases where Paul did miraculous healing, the faith the person being healed was usually not mentioned. I know it was mentioned sometimes, as you have cited, and that is why I used the word "most".
But how many times do we need to have it spoken about before we’ll believe it? Jesus spoke of the faith of the individuals over and over and over , your faith has made you whole…..and Paul stated the same…..there are a great many things that need to be taught in Gods revelation then just healing….you won’t see it taught about on every page….. we shouldn’t need to. 
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/16/2004 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I discount the implications of the written text? How can that be worse then discounting the clear declarations of scriptures that by the str4ipes of Jesus were are healed? [Isaiah 53] That statement is right along side with the verses about forgiveness of sins so there we’re dealing with very clear cut statements that by the stripes of Jesus we are healed.
Okay. So you would call that physical healing, whereas I would not. I would also say that the evidence of a number of very good Christians not being healed is evidence that my interpretation is correct.
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And what about Jesus then? Wasn’t he considered not just one of but rather the most prolific healer in the Bible? Was he always able to heal people? Most certainly but its stated very clearly that he could not heal certain people because of their unbelief. If that was true with Jesus why do you think it wouldn’t be true with Paul?
I was looking for references where Christ was unable to heal someone, but I wasn't able to find them. I'm not saying they are not in the bible, but could you point them out to me?
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Well I would say no that it is rather your position which is making claims bases on ignorance. The only thing we do know is that scriptures states in the writings of Paul, there were two disciples which didn’t receive the manifestation of healing. There is nothing to say that God would not heal them and one can speak of what they think of the implications of a text all they want but it doesn’t do away with the clear teaching that by the str5ipes of Jesus we are healed.
I think you don't have my claim quite in the right context. My claim is that by the text we know they were not healed at the point that the account was written. Also, I'm claiming that we know that, at least, Timothy did not lack faith. I'm also claiming that Paul did not seem to offer healing to Timothy. None of these claims are made in ignorance; it is simply in the text. And these together is good evidence that Timothy was not healed.
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Because it could very well be a possibility in light of the fact that many were not healed even in the ministry of Jesus because of unbelief. The problem I would suggest with your position is you make a doctrine which goes this way that its not always Gods will to heal but there is no absolute proof to back up this claim. [IMO]
Certainly there is no absolute proof of just about anything. But I've simply asked for your evidence and it comes up lacking. The evidence for my claim is mountainous in light of the fact that we have no physical data on any miraculous healing today. This lines up with the philosophical understanding about normal reactions to miracles.
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Well I admit if I had the finger right there I’d probably do what most naturally would think to do and that is see a doctor. Well does that mean im choosing to walk in a little bit of unbelief? Well maybe. That might be something I might need to repent of but I’ll tell you this if the finger was destroyed I wouldn’t go whimpering about not seeking to release my faith for God to grow another one. Impossible? Well most certainly for the one which chooses to think it is. Jesus already stated all things are possible to him that believeth in other words its not possible to the one which chooses not to release their faith. That we do know. And please don’t suggest to me God doesn’t do creative miracles today for you’re already too late. Ive known folks which a have received creative miracles….but I even if I didn’t know anyone…that means nothing…..Jesus said God power couldn’t heal many lepers at all in Elisha's day except one….but it was Gods will to heal all the time….the people missed it because of there unwillingness to believe, or to receive their healing.
It's not as lack of faith to have your finger sewn back on by a doctor. Now, if it cannot be sewn on, and you grow a new one… document it, PLEASE.
If I have a finger cut off, and I cannot have it sewn back on, I won't whimper about it, I'd just learn to live without a finger. The only way I'd find fault with the situation is if God promised to heal me and didn't. And that's exactly what we find with people who believe as you do, despite the caveat that God won't heal everyone.
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But how many times do we need to have it spoken about before we’ll believe it? Jesus spoke of the faith of the individuals over and over and over , your faith has made you whole…..and Paul stated the same…..there are a great many things that need to be taught in Gods revelation then just healing….you won’t see it taught about on every page….. we shouldn’t need to.
I'm also saying that in Jesus day especially, and occasionally before Jesus' time, and afterward trailing off into Paul's time, there was prolific healing. However, after Paul, there was little to no miraculous healing. So all the times we read about it in the bible, it is talking about these times. Also, with today's communication, we should at least be able to get a single documented instance of miraculous healing if it were still going on to any extent at all.
BTW, do you know the normal reaction to miracles as recorded in the bible? | | Back to Top | | |
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/16/2004 7:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Mark 6:4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Thanks for the cite. | | Back to Top | | |
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billzbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 8/17/2004 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
However, after Paul, there was little to no miraculous healing. So all the times we read about it in the bible, it is talking about these times. Also, with today's communication, we should at least be able to get a single documented instance of miraculous healing if it were still going on to any extent at all.
1. There is no hsitorical suggestion that healing ever stopped in the Christian Church. Quite to the contrary. (One has to look at actual history, and not just repeated modern hearsay!)
2. There is plenty of recorded and reported healing. (Didn't you know?)
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by billzbob
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
However, after Paul, there was little to no miraculous healing. So all the times we read about it in the bible, it is talking about these times. Also, with today's communication, we should at least be able to get a single documented instance of miraculous healing if it were still going on to any extent at all.
1. There is no hsitorical suggestion that healing ever stopped in the Christian Church. Quite to the contrary. (One has to look at actual history, and not just repeated modern hearsay!)
2. There is plenty of recorded and reported healing. (Didn't you know?)
1. I know there hasn't been a suggestion that healing ever stopped in the (majority) Christian Church. But I'm looking a actualy history, not the popular hearsay.
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Does anyone know the normal response to a miracle recorded in the bible? | | Back to Top | | |
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
Mark 6:4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Interesting that healing would be the thing he could do in a region where lack of faith was displayed. Maybe healing is one of the easy ones.
peace, don
That is curious. I wonder if in a situation of a lack of faith that healing can only "partially" be accomplished? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Okay, I'll bite. (This one is medically documented, and the recipient of the healing is alive and well in Chicago, IL).
My older brother, who was born with a cleft palate deformity, was miraculously healed when he was eight years old, back in the early 1970s. He was prayed for at a salvation/healing crusade. As he was praying, the evangelist said to my brother, "In three weeks it will be totally grown over, thus saith the Lord." That night, a bridge of flesh grew across the cleft palate defect. Each day for the next three weeks, more and more flesh grew, until the hole (which had originally been about 1 cm in diameter) was completely closed over. Our family physician was truly dumbfounded, as the defect in that day and age was not able to be surgically corrected.
quote:
Does anyone know the normal response to a miracle recorded in the bible?
Yes, praise to God and thankfulness for such a condescencion of mercy toward unworthy humans. (Just like our family and congregation did in my brother's case).
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
quote:
Originally posted by billzbob
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
However, after Paul, there was little to no miraculous healing. So all the times we read about it in the bible, it is talking about these times. Also, with today's communication, we should at least be able to get a single documented instance of miraculous healing if it were still going on to any extent at all.
1. There is no hsitorical suggestion that healing ever stopped in the Christian Church. Quite to the contrary. (One has to look at actual history, and not just repeated modern hearsay!)
2. There is plenty of recorded and reported healing. (Didn't you know?)
Well said!
I wish I could put a copy of the late A. J. Gordon's book, The Ministry of Healing in the hands of every cessationist. Well documented cases of healing throughout history.
Does Gordon actually cite any evidence of miraculous healing? | | Back to Top | | |
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Okay, I'll bite. (This one is medically documented, and the recipient of the healing is alive and well in Chicago, IL).
My older brother, who was born with a cleft palate deformity, was miraculously healed when he was eight years old, back in the early 1970s. He was prayed for at a salvation/healing crusade. As he was praying, the evangelist said to my brother, "In three weeks it will be totally grown over, thus saith the Lord." That night, a bridge of flesh grew across the cleft palate defect. Each day for the next three weeks, more and more flesh grew, until the hole (which had originally been about 1 cm in diameter) was completely closed over. Our family physician was truly dumbfounded, as the defect in that day and age was not able to be surgically corrected.
Great. Can you supply the medical documents?
quote:
quote:
Does anyone know the normal response to a miracle recorded in the bible?
Yes, praise to God and thankfulness for such a condescencion of mercy toward unworthy humans. (Just like our family and congregation did in my brother's case).
No. It was rebellion. Almost everytime. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Okay, I'll bite. (This one is medically documented, and the recipient of the healing is alive and well in Chicago, IL).
My older brother, who was born with a cleft palate deformity, was miraculously healed when he was eight years old, back in the early 1970s. He was prayed for at a salvation/healing crusade. As he was praying, the evangelist said to my brother, "In three weeks it will be totally grown over, thus saith the Lord." That night, a bridge of flesh grew across the cleft palate defect. Each day for the next three weeks, more and more flesh grew, until the hole (which had originally been about 1 cm in diameter) was completely closed over. Our family physician was truly dumbfounded, as the defect in that day and age was not able to be surgically corrected.
Great. Can you supply the medical documents?
Yes. If you really are interested (which I doubt) the Assemblies of God Archives has a collection of medically documented healings.
quote:
quote:
Does anyone know the normal response to a miracle recorded in the bible?
Yes, praise to God and thankfulness for such a condescencion of mercy toward unworthy humans. (Just like our family and congregation did in my brother's case).
quote:
No. It was rebellion. Almost everytime.
Rebellion by those who were already in rebellion against God's love (like the Pharisees who were angry that Jesus had healed on the sabbath). Wonder, amazement, and adoration by many:
Matt. 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Mark 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
Luke 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/19/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | | Actually im sure there are a great many healing testimonies that can be confirmed by doctors or by those who know the person. You can't just reject the claim that one wasn't healed by divine power just because you don't have doctors to certify such has occured. There are many doctors which absolutely refuse to back up anything to do with God or a persons faith having something to do with healing. Even with Jesus himself the professionals stood against the claims that Jesus raised people from the dead or healed them. They claimed he was a nut and extremist, and that the only ones that basically followered him were the riftraft of Gallilee. The Bible says not many wise, or learned or those who are considered the elite of society would receive the claims of the gospel. It's not any different today. So if one claims to have been healed, and friends and family all confirm such was the case why then should we insist the noble of this world confirm it to be true. If not many of them are open to the gospel then why should we think they'll give an honest fair report on what took place when it comes to healings? | | Back to Top | | |
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yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Okay, I'll bite. (This one is medically documented, and the recipient of the healing is alive and well in Chicago, IL).
My older brother, who was born with a cleft palate deformity, was miraculously healed when he was eight years old, back in the early 1970s. He was prayed for at a salvation/healing crusade. As he was praying, the evangelist said to my brother, "In three weeks it will be totally grown over, thus saith the Lord." That night, a bridge of flesh grew across the cleft palate defect. Each day for the next three weeks, more and more flesh grew, until the hole (which had originally been about 1 cm in diameter) was completely closed over. Our family physician was truly dumbfounded, as the defect in that day and age was not able to be surgically corrected.
Great. Can you supply the medical documents?
Yes. If you really are interested (which I doubt) the Assemblies of God Archives has a collection of medically documented healings.
quote:
quote:
Does anyone know the normal response to a miracle recorded in the bible?
Yes, praise to God and thankfulness for such a condescencion of mercy toward unworthy humans. (Just like our family and congregation did in my brother's case).
quote:
No. It was rebellion. Almost everytime.
Rebellion by those who were already in rebellion against God's love (like the Pharisees who were angry that Jesus had healed on the sabbath). Wonder, amazement, and adoration by many:
Matt. 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Mark 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
Luke 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Yes, "most" does not mean "all".
If every miracle is chronicled, and every reaction recorded, you will find that rebellion is the most common reaction. Some author has gone through and done just that; looked all the miracles of the bible and the reactions to them, it may have been Bullinger. | | Back to Top | | |
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