 |
| 
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
2. There is not one documented case of miraculous healing. I'll stick by that until it is shown otherwise. I'll look into the book that was mentioned in a following post.
Okay, I'll bite.  (This one is medically documented, and the recipient of the healing is alive and well in Chicago, IL).
My older brother, who was born with a cleft palate deformity, was miraculously healed when he was eight years old, back in the early 1970s. He was prayed for at a salvation/healing crusade. As he was praying, the evangelist said to my brother, "In three weeks it will be totally grown over, thus saith the Lord." That night, a bridge of flesh grew across the cleft palate defect. Each day for the next three weeks, more and more flesh grew, until the hole (which had originally been about 1 cm in diameter) was completely closed over. Our family physician was truly dumbfounded, as the defect in that day and age was not able to be surgically corrected.
Great. Can you supply the medical documents?
Yes. If you really are interested (which I doubt) the Assemblies of God Archives has a collection of medically documented healings.
I'm REALLY interested! In fact, it's not just my curiousity, there are 2 people that I know of that have been looking for this kind of information for a long time. | | Back to Top | | |
 |
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/19/2004 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
Actually im sure there are a great many healing testimonies that can be confirmed by doctors or by those who know the person. You can't just reject the claim that one wasn't healed by divine power just because you don't have doctors to certify such has occured. There are many doctors which absolutely refuse to back up anything to do with God or a persons faith having something to do with healing. Even with Jesus himself the professionals stood against the claims that Jesus raised people from the dead or healed them. They claimed he was a nut and extremist, and that the only ones that basically followered him were the riftraft of Gallilee. The Bible says not many wise, or learned or those who are considered the elite of society would receive the claims of the gospel. It's not any different today. So if one claims to have been healed, and friends and family all confirm such was the case why then should we insist the noble of this world confirm it to be true. If not many of them are open to the gospel then why should we think they'll give an honest fair report on what took place when it comes to healings?
It's fine to have eye witness testimony. I would evaluate each case on its own merits. Do you have some cases that we can look at? There is a caveat to what you say, and that would be that family and friends are the worst witnesses. This isn't just me, but private investigators will tell you the same thing. It's simply that family and friends have a vested interest in a relationship, and relationships are the most powerful influence on someone's life. This doesn't discount their testimony, but it's just to let you know that those particular witnesses will be under greater scrutiny. Of course, I'm sure there are other documents and witnesses as well, and every case is better bolstered by as much evidence as possible. So if you have a case, please tell me how to get as much information as possible on it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/21/2004 8:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It's fine to have eye witness testimony. I would evaluate each case on its own merits. Do you have some cases that we can look at? It's fine to have eye witness testimony. I would evaluate each case on its own merits. Do you have some cases that we can look at?
There are many on this web site whether you believe them or not I guess you'll have to decide.
quote:
Spokane Healing Rooms - http://www.healingrooms.com/radio/testimonies.htm
Testimonies of people healed in modern healing rooms in Spokane, Wa.
By the way we shouldn't really be looking to what we see or don't see as the basis of how we as Christians form our beliefs. What if there we no examples you could see ? As a Christian that should mean nothing. It would be like saying because I don't see anyone walking in holiness that must mean therefore that God doesn't provide the power to do so. Whole generations have went off track and God has sought to get them back on his word. May I suggest what the Bible teaches should be the basis for what we believe or dont' believe something. Period.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/21/2004 11:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
It's fine to have eye witness testimony. I would evaluate each case on its own merits. Do you have some cases that we can look at? It's fine to have eye witness testimony. I would evaluate each case on its own merits. Do you have some cases that we can look at?
There are many on this web site whether you believe them or not I guess you'll have to decide.
quote:
Spokane Healing Rooms - http://www.healingrooms.com/radio/testimonies.htm
Testimonies of people healed in modern healing rooms in Spokane, Wa.
By the way we shouldn't really be looking to what we see or don't see as the basis of how we as Christians form our beliefs. What if there we no examples you could see ? As a Christian that should mean nothing. It would be like saying because I don't see anyone walking in holiness that must mean therefore that God doesn't provide the power to do so. Whole generations have went off track and God has sought to get them back on his word. May I suggest what the Bible teaches should be the basis for what we believe or dont' believe something. Period.
Testimonies on this website are fine... but they are a far far call from good evidence for healing.
I'm reviewing the website you mention. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, the whole book that was mentioned is online. I've been reading it, and it's not about evidence for healing (so far), but of the process and ministry of miraculous healing. So it's a decent read, but not helpful in this context.
Of course, we don't rely on miracles (or lack thereof) for believing. I can't, because I've never seen one or been convinced than anyone else in modern times has seen one, either. So I'm relying on the bible, period. In fact, God says that those who have heard and not seen are blessed. I'd place that passage as another part of the reason why God is not doing miracles today.
What the real problem is with miracles today, is that Christians look so stupid to people that would otherwise listen to the gospel. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/22/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Of course, we don't rely on miracles (or lack thereof) for believing. I can't, because I've never seen one or been convinced than anyone else in modern times has seen one, either. So I'm relying on the bible, period. In fact, God says that those who have heard and not seen are blessed. I'd place that passage as another part of the reason why God is not doing miracles today.
I would suggest that statement the Lord made to Thomas needs to stay in the context in which it was given that just because we do not see the Lord today [physically on the earth] that we should still have faith that he was resurrected. In fact one of the reasons the world can know that he is resurrected is by witnessing the powerful works God does in living his life out through his people on the earth.
Whether its by seeing the supernatural love they demonstrate to love one another or whether its answers to prayers which is called being fruitful by sharing with the world what the Lord has done people do still see God in action. The only thing Jesus stressed however with Thomas is that you don't have to physically see me in the physical body to believe that im alive. If we study the scriptures I think we'll see healings always brought glory to God. It reveals his loving gracious character. Why should anyone even consider that Gods mercy would pass away? 
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/22/2004 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Of course, we don't rely on miracles (or lack thereof) for believing. I can't, because I've never seen one or been convinced than anyone else in modern times has seen one, either. So I'm relying on the bible, period. In fact, God says that those who have heard and not seen are blessed. I'd place that passage as another part of the reason why God is not doing miracles today.
I would suggest that statement the Lord made to Thomas needs to stay in the context in which it was given that just because we do not see the Lord today [physically on the earth] that we should still have faith that he was resurrected. In fact one of the reasons the world can know that he is resurrected is by witnessing the powerful works God does in living his life out through his people on the earth.
Yes, the miracles of Jesus have a profound effect. One of the greatest examples is that of the man that was let down through the roof to be healed. Jesus said, Mat 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." The miracles legitimized Jesus' ministry. He no longer needs miracles to legitimize His ministry today.
Still, I'm not taking Thomas' incident out of context. There is a principle that is involved with "blessed are those that have not seen". Whether it be Jesus, or an undeniable sign from God - a miracle. There is a reason the people that people that have not seen are "blessed". That is the point of the principle. The statement does not say that those that have not seen are blessed in their belief (surely, it is a blessing, but this comment is about that). The text primarily is lining up the difference between those that have seen and those that haven't. The blessedness is in the seeing or not, not the believing or not (if we keep the text in context).
quote:
Whether its by seeing the supernatural love they demonstrate to love one another or whether its answers to prayers which is called being fruitful by sharing with the world what the Lord has done people do still see God in action. The only thing Jesus stressed however with Thomas is that you don't have to physically see me in the physical body to believe that im alive. If we study the scriptures I think we'll see healings always brought glory to God. It reveals his loving gracious character. Why should anyone even consider that Gods mercy would pass away?
Oh, surely not. The ultimate healing, that of Lazarus, SHOULD have been the miracle that turned the hearts of the leaders to Jesus. But instead, it was the ultimate heart hardener. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/22/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yes, the miracles of Jesus have a profound effect. One of the greatest examples is that of the man that was let down through the roof to be healed. Jesus said, Mat 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." The miracles legitimized Jesus' ministry. He no longer needs miracles to legitimize His ministry today. [Yorzhik]
Who says so? We live in an age now where people doubt Jesus was who he says he was. They doubt all the very scriptures which states the precious things you and I both believe. So why should you think that Jesus doesn’t need to show himself alive and well? And its not just his power that needs to be demonstrated but also Gods character of mercy and goodness. If we study the scriptures it states that healing is good and it is merciful? Isn’t he the same yesterday today and forever like the Bible states he is? Im sure that he is.
quote:
The ultimate healing, that of Lazarus, SHOULD have been the miracle that turned the hearts of the leaders to Jesus. But instead, it was the ultimate heart hardener. [Yorzhik]
True Yorzhik but isn’t it also true as well that the only reason they chose to harden their hearts is because they made a decision to hate the light? The Light however did reveal himself to demonstrate his divinity to them. Healing also didn’t harden all peoples hearts. Even with Lazarus the scriptures states many became followers of Jesus because of it. Also God through Peter in the Book of Acts raised one person from the dead. It states the whole town of Sharon came to the Lord because of the miracle. Also with Paul on the Island of Malta….healing took place with the leader of the island who was sick and they brought unto him all sick people on the island. Well you know he preached salvation to them as well. It was healing however that got these peoples attention to hear the gospel. I think it will do it the same today 
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/22/2004 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Yes, the miracles of Jesus have a profound effect. One of the greatest examples is that of the man that was let down through the roof to be healed. Jesus said, Mat 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." The miracles legitimized Jesus' ministry. He no longer needs miracles to legitimize His ministry today. [Yorzhik]
Who says so? We live in an age now where people doubt Jesus was who he says he was. They doubt all the very scriptures which states the precious things you and I both believe. So why should you think that Jesus doesn’t need to show himself alive and well? And its not just his power that needs to be demonstrated but also Gods character of mercy and goodness. If we study the scriptures it states that healing is good and it is merciful? Isn’t he the same yesterday today and forever like the Bible states he is? Im sure that he is.
Because people claiming to be God, or be of God, only need the miracles when they make the claim.
And Jesus does not need to demonstrate His divinity to have people believe today. The number of people that came to believe that have not seen a miracle vastly outnumber those that came to believe that have. And beyond that, the number of people that we lose because they see Christians are idiots that would otherwise listen to the gospel I would contend outnumber those that come to Christ because of miracles.
But as far as mercy is concerned, I could go along with that, except that so many miracles are covering for trouble that people brought upon themselves. I know there are exceptions, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the frequent ills that people bring upon themselves that they get bailed out of by a miracle. The Healing Rooms are teaming with these. This is not mercy, it is enabling. But it is appearently so common if one goes by the Healing Rooms testimonials.
And don't use that passage of the same-yesterday-today-and-tomorrow out of context like you did. God changes all the time, and His use of miracles is one of those things.
quote:
quote:
The ultimate healing, that of Lazarus, SHOULD have been the miracle that turned the hearts of the leaders to Jesus. But instead, it was the ultimate heart hardener. [Yorzhik]
True Yorzhik but isn’t it also true as well that the only reason they chose to harden their hearts is because they made a decision to hate the light? The Light however did reveal himself to demonstrate his divinity to them. Healing also didn’t harden all peoples hearts. Even with Lazarus the scriptures states many became followers of Jesus because of it.
It doesn't matter if they chose to hate the light. The miracle SHOULD have convinced them not to hate the light. The miracle SHOULD have convinced them about exactly who they were dealing with. But instead, they showed the human propensity to ignore reality. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/23/2004 3:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And Jesus does not need to demonstrate His divinity to have people believe today.
Not with all but with many I would say he most certainly does. Those who choose to have faith in just the Bible fine…..fact is though a lot of people throughout the earth don’t accept just the Bible for there are many religious books. What makes the Christian Bible more authoritative if the living Christ won’t demonstrate his reality?
quote:
The number of people that came to believe that have not seen a miracle vastly outnumber those that came to believe that have.
Well a couple of things could be said concerning this I think. First you have the number of believers we have but only God knows the great magnitutue which could be added to the body of Christ if Christians would take the Great Commission seriously. [apart of which was laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover]
quote:
But as far as mercy is concerned, I could go along with that, except that so many miracles are covering for trouble that people brought upon themselves. I know there are exceptions, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the frequent ills that people bring upon themselves that they get bailed out of by a miracle.
Who are we to suggest Jesus can’t or won’t show mercy to those who have brought things upon themselves? So what if someone is afflicted because of something wrong they may have done…lets say like smoking or drinking they get cancer. Who are we to say God doesn’t want to show them mercy adding in with this that they repent for the foolish things they have done. Jesus showed mercy to a woman caught in th3e act of adultery, and in another place it seems that he healed one based on something they had done, for he stated Go and sin no more less a worse thing come upon you. The Psalms states as well that fools because of their sin go down to the gates of death but they cry unto the Lord and he saves them out of their destructions.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/28/2004 1:12 AM (GMT -6) | | I've been around while on vacation, but I have reduced my online activity quite a bit. Anyhow, back to the show.
quote:
Not with all but with many I would say he most certainly does. Those who choose to have faith in just the Bible fine…..fact is though a lot of people throughout the earth don't accept just the Bible for there are many religious books. What makes the Christian Bible more authoritative if the living Christ won't demonstrate his reality?
The bible is enough without miracles. It is amazingly coherent and synchronized between authors. This alone is reason to give it a look. And then, when it explains... well... everything, it's worth a second look. The Spirit can work with that as much or more than a person that had reality dropped on them like a ton of bricks, which is what a miracle does. The principle of "blessed are those who have not seen" is demonstrative.
Beyond that, all the Christians that claim there are miracles today cannot produce the evidence sufficient to convince the mildly interested. I'm not talking about hardened skeptics; that's what you get after a "God can prove Himself with miracles" Christian talks with this type of person.
And beyond THAT, the evidence gets worse and worse the more I dig into it. When a witness is pressed for the documents (and I'm not talking about you), the documents never materialize. Eyewitness testimonies start leaving more and more holes. Excuses start mounting.
quote:
Well a couple of things could be said concerning this I think. First you have the number of believers we have but only God knows the great magnitutue which could be added to the body of Christ if Christians would take the Great Commission seriously. [apart of which was laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover]
Thanks, a lack of understanding concerning the right way to divide the Word of Truth seems to be a tendency for all kinds of error.
But beyond that, the number of Christians that have come to Christ that say they saw a miracle is slim. There have been national polls taken, and most Christians have never observed a miracle first hand.
quote:
Who are we to suggest Jesus can't or won't show mercy to those who have brought things upon themselves?
Because getting a child out of trouble that they got into themselves leads to worse trouble. God isn't stupid. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because there are times when the situation warrants it. However, just go listen to and read the Healing Room testimonies, the percentage is too high (and I take it for granted that ALL receivers of miracles are required to repent). If God is granting that much slack, then we would have a much greater number of miracles, because God is Just, and people that got themselves into their own trouble would be outnumbered greatly by those that asked for miracles in faith that didn't get themselves into their own trouble. With this huge number of miracles, at least ONE could provide decent documentation.
But let's go back to the reason this matters. It's because we want to maximize our witness, and when we Christians look flaky and cannot back up what we say, our witness is bad. And that's what we get when we try to convince the non-believing world that miracles are still happening today, because the evidence is soooooo weak. Especially when there is no reason (if miracles REALLY were happening) that the evidence shouldn't be *very strong*. Our communication and documentation technologies SHOULD make the whole debate of whether miracles are happening or not a moot point. Actually, they lend strong evidence that miracles are not happening today. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/28/2004 2:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The bible is enough without miracles. It is amazingly coherent and synchronized between authors. This alone is reason to give it a look.
Many people in the world do not agree with what you've stated and God is not afraid nor shy to reveal his mercy and love [of healing] and other mercies just as much today as he did back when.
quote:
Beyond that, all the Christians that claim there are miracles today cannot produce the evidence sufficient to convince the mildly interested.
You might want to pick up the writings of one Lilian B Yeomans M.D who was herself a medical doctor. She writes of many she had seen.
quote:
But let's go back to the reason this matters. It's because we want to maximize our witness, and when we Christians look flaky and cannot back up what we say, our witness is bad.
And Christians don't look flaky when they claim they serve a God of mercy and love but who won't release the healing goodness today in peoples lives? And your need to have what you call documentation...what is it that you want? X rays which show one thing and then X rays which show another? Well ive seen such things on different Christian programing and no I didn't write everything down the names and such to seek to convince you a Christian. As Christians I would say we shouldn't need the world to back up the claims of scripture anyway that healing is for today. You've said yourself blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. I think we should just stick with what Isaiah 53 reveals and that is by his stripes we are healed. Believe that and accept that.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 8/30/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Many people in the world do not agree with what you've stated...
So what!?! People will disagree with me that the earth revolves around the sun.
quote:
... and God is not afraid nor shy to reveal his mercy and love [of healing] and other mercies just as much today as he did back when.
It isn't a matter of fear, or shyness, or even ability. It is a matter of pragmatism and history. Pragmatically, miracles don't engender much loyalty. And historically (history after Paul), we simply do not have sure evidence of healing. And beyond that, in recent history (internet history) the evidence of healing gets weaker, much weaker. It should get stronger with greater communication and recording technology.
quote:
You might want to pick up the writings of one Lilian B Yeomans M.D who was herself a medical doctor. She writes of many she had seen.
Thanks. I'll look into that.
quote:
And Christians don't look flaky when they claim they serve a God of mercy and love but who won't release the healing goodness today in peoples lives?
Christians don't look flaky when they say something isn't happening that is demonstrably not happening.
quote:
And your need to have what you call documentation...what is it that you want? X rays which show one thing and then X rays which show another?
Yes. That would be a good start.
quote:
Well ive seen such things on different Christian programing and no I didn't write everything down the names and such to seek to convince you a Christian.
You don't need to convince me that God can do it. I'm saying that God infers that He isn't doing healings these days. If God infers it, and there is evidence that the inference is the case, then, as a Christian, who are you to question what God has decided? If there is evidence against the inference, then I have the opportunity to reconsider.
quote:
As Christians I would say we shouldn't need the world to back up the claims of scripture anyway that healing is for today.
That is a foolish outlook in many cases. Using the world's evidence against them is being wise as a serpent. As it is, the world's evidence agrees with God's inference, but is against the majority of man-made religions… I wonder who is going to turn out to be correct in the end…
quote:
You've said yourself blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. I think we should just stick with what Isaiah 53 reveals and that is by his stripes we are healed. Believe that and accept that.
Honestly, I didn't realize how easily Christians could look flaky because they don't understand dispensations, but here, again, is another example. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/31/2004 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
You've said yourself blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. I think we should just stick with what Isaiah 53 reveals and that is by his stripes we are healed. Believe that and accept that. [Bobber]
quote:
Honestly, I didn't realize how easily Christians could look flaky because they don't understand dispensations, but here, again, is another example. [Yorzhik]
Well actually Yorzhik to be perfectly honest with you [if I might] I have a hard time understanding how ones can be as you say the word 'flaky' how ones can be such by suggesting Isaiah 53 where it talks about healing is dispensational [not for today] but the rest of the same verse, the first part is for today. The sin forgiven part is for today but not the healing part? And yet the same verse.  Have a good day 
[Yorzhik] | | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/1/2004 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
You've said yourself blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. I think we should just stick with what Isaiah 53 reveals and that is by his stripes we are healed. Believe that and accept that. [Bobber]
quote:
Yorzhik repliedHonestly, I didn't realize how easily Christians could look flaky because they don't understand dispensations, but here, again, is another example. [Yorzhik]
Bobber repliedWell actually Yorzhik to be perfectly honest with you [if I might] I have a hard time understanding how ones can be as you say the word 'flaky' how ones can be such by suggesting Isaiah 53 where it talks about healing is dispensational [not for today] but the rest of the same verse, the first part is for today. The sin forgiven part is for today but not the healing part? And yet the same verse. Have a good day
Because, again, you have to understand what parts were changed and which stay the same. Also, I have a hard time believing that the Isaiah passage you mention is talking about physical (superficial) healing. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/2/2004 7:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Because, again, you have to understand what parts were changed and which stay the same. [Yorzhik]
I agree with you there....sometimes we have to know which stays the same and there is no indication whatsoever in the text that states or even suggests they don't stay the same. There is nothing in the rest of scripture which would lead us to believe they've changed either.
quote:
Also, I have a hard time believing that the Isaiah passage you mention is talking about physical (superficial) healing. [Yorzhik]
If we turn to Mat 8:17 I believe we see this very thing. Jesus heals the physical sick and declares his right to do this was based on the Isaiah 53 passage. "...himself took our infirmities and bare our sickness..."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/3/2004 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
Because, again, you have to understand what parts were changed and which stay the same. [Yorzhik]
I agree with you there....sometimes we have to know which stays the same and there is no indication whatsoever in the text that states or even suggests they don't stay the same. There is nothing in the rest of scripture which would lead us to believe they've changed either. . [Bobber]
Yes, when Paul mentions that Timothy wasn't healed, that is other scripture that suggests things changed.
quote:
quote:
Also, I have a hard time believing that the Isaiah passage you mention is talking about physical (superficial) healing. [Yorzhik]
If we turn to Mat 8:17 I believe we see this very thing. Jesus heals the physical sick and declares his right to do this was based on the Isaiah 53 passage. "...himself took our infirmities and bare our sickness..."
You state the facts correctly, but your conclusion is not quite on. Since the Isaiah passage is talking about sin, and where it is explained in 1 Peter 2:24 is talking about sin, we can conclude that Matt 8:17 is a case of pre-figuring and not explanation. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/4/2004 3:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I agree with you there....sometimes we have to know which stays the same and there is no indication whatsoever in the text that states or even suggests they don't stay the same. There is nothing in the rest of scripture which would lead us to believe they've changed either. . [Bobber]
quote:
Yes, when Paul mentions that Timothy wasn't healed, that is other scripture that suggests things changed. [Yorzhik]
Why should it? There were people not healed in the ministry of Jesus but it doesn’t say that God would not heal them but that he could not….why? Well it is recorded because of their unbelief. So just because there is record in the times right o after Jesus of some not healed does not prove it is not Gods will to heal them. The Bible does record some peoples experience but the expericiene of individuals is not nor should it ever be the basis for forming doctrines….it must always be and stay the word of God itself. The Bible states by the stripes of Jesus we are healed.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/4/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
I agree with you there....sometimes we have to know which stays the same and there is no indication whatsoever in the text that states or even suggests they don't stay the same. There is nothing in the rest of scripture which would lead us to believe they've changed either. . [Bobber]
quote:
Yes, when Paul mentions that Timothy wasn't healed, that is other scripture that suggests things changed. [Yorzhik]
Why should it? There were people not healed in the ministry of Jesus but it doesn’t say that God would not heal them but that he could not….why? Well it is recorded because of their unbelief.
Why should it... because Timothy didn't have a problem with unbelief. Are you going to say he did have a problem with unbelief? You'd have to argue that one based on ignorance with evidence to the contrary. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/4/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why should it... because Timothy didn't have a problem with unbelief. Are you going to say he did have a problem with unbelief? You'd have to argue that one based on ignorance with evidence to the contrary
You don't know that. Unbelief may or may not have been the problem. Secondly its not just a matter of unbelief but there could be other reasons as well, one being people may have faith that something is true but refuse to act upon the word which will bring the results of answered prayer. How many I have seen through the years those who state they believe that God is able...and wrongly believe that to be faith. No you can actually even believe esomething [that is that God heals] and still not make a decision to believe you receive when you pray according to what Mark 11:24 states we should do. | | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/7/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Bobber wrote
You don't know that. Unbelief may or may not have been the problem.
Like I said; ignorance (with evidence to the contrary).
quote:
Secondly its not just a matter of unbelief but there could be other reasons as well, one being people may have faith that something is true but refuse to act upon the word which will bring the results of answered prayer.
And they drink wine, too!
quote:
How many I have seen through the years those who state they believe that God is able...and wrongly believe that to be faith. No you can actually even believe something [that is that God heals] and still not make a decision to believe you receive when you pray according to what Mark 11:24 states we should do.
I'm sure this is really the problem in most cases. "Yes, I know God can heal but I'm not healed… What? All I needed to do was BELIEVE that God could heal AND that He WOULD heal me? Why didn't somebody tell me? It would have been so easy to add that… and why didn't Paul tell that to Timothy?" | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/11/2004 12:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm sure this is really the problem in most cases. "Yes, I know God can heal but I'm not healed… What? All I needed to do was BELIEVE that God could heal AND that He WOULD heal me? Why didn't somebody tell me? It would have been so easy to add that… and why didn't Paul tell that to Timothy?"
We can know that the teachings of Jesus lets say from Mark 11:23,24 were taught to Timothy, which states, "What things soever you desire when you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them."
It's not just believing that God can heal...that's faith in a sense but its not the faith which reaches out and receives....and it'snot just believing that God will heal...that's not it either....its rather believing you receive when you pray.....so after one belives they receive when Yorzhik? When you pray....how will you then talk and how will you then act? It should be like you're healed.....so one will talk like they've got it and act like they've got it...not doing that a person did not believe they received when they prayed....if millions of Christians refuse to do that today how can you be so sure that one such indiviudal wouldn't do that then? So the Bible reports that some people weren't healed back then just like we might report some people are not healed today...it doesn't mean it wasn't the will of God to heal them though. | | Back to Top | | |
|
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 9/11/2004 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by yorzhik
I'm surprized this wasn't mentioned. The reason that the little girl wasn't healed is because no-one these days is getting healed miraculously. No dilema, no stress, and simple.
[/
quote]
Just two nights back as we began our usual Thurs eve prayer meeting, the woman in whose home we meet stood to give a testimony. Her husband had been found to have an anyeurism in the aortic artery, six months back. They had been to a few specialists. The advice was to leave it alone as the man is over 70 and may not survive well a surgery. They went in for a sonagram. The doctor pulled it up on computer as my friends sat with him. He had never seen an anyeurism go away. They have another doctor friend who has since said "they never go away". As this doctor looks at the computer he says...it is just gone... your artery is just fine!!!! These are people I've known for years. Miracles happen...The biggest is still a sinner coming to the Savior and being redeemed by the blood! The word says on this note angels rejoice!!
Praise to our Healing, never-changing Jesus, the Son of God!
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/12/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
I'm sure this is really the problem in most cases. "Yes, I know God can heal but I'm not healed… What? All I needed to do was BELIEVE that God could heal AND that He WOULD heal me? Why didn't somebody tell me? It would have been so easy to add that… and why didn't Paul tell that to Timothy?"
We can know that the teachings of Jesus lets say from Mark 11:23,24 were taught to Timothy, which states, "What things soever you desire when you pray believe you receive them and you shall have them."
It's not just believing that God can heal...that's faith in a sense but its not the faith which reaches out and receives....and it'snot just believing that God will heal...that's not it either....its rather believing you receive when you pray.....so after one belives they receive when Yorzhik? When you pray....how will you then talk and how will you then act? It should be like you're healed.....so one will talk like they've got it and act like they've got it...not doing that a person did not believe they received when they prayed....if millions of Christians refuse to do that today how can you be so sure that one such indiviudal wouldn't do that then? So the Bible reports that some people weren't healed back then just like we might report some people are not healed today...it doesn't mean it wasn't the will of God to heal them though.
What you've described (best as I can tell) is close to what I described. However, I'd like to point out that in the time Jesus and the apostles, healing wasn't so complicated. Hems, shadows, and mere earshot of Jesus or apostles seem to be enough to heal. God was cutting people a lot of slack back then? No, He was actually healing back then, without nebulus formulas and incantations. When God heals, He is very clear about what is going on, whereas todays healings are fast and loose with the facts. God doesn't work that way. Better just admit that God isn't healing today, and get a closer walk with God because you understand His nature better. | | Back to Top | | |
|
yorzhik
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 9/12/2004 8:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
quote:
Originally posted by yorzhik
I'm surprized this wasn't mentioned. The reason that the little girl wasn't healed is because no-one these days is getting healed miraculously. No dilema, no stress, and simple.
Just two nights back as we began our usual Thurs eve prayer meeting, the woman in whose home we meet stood to give a testimony. Her husband had been found to have an anyeurism in the aortic artery, six months back. They had been to a few specialists. The advice was to leave it alone as the man is over 70 and may not survive well a surgery. They went in for a sonagram. The doctor pulled it up on computer as my friends sat with him. He had never seen an anyeurism go away. They have another doctor friend who has since said "they never go away". As this doctor looks at the computer he says...it is just gone... your artery is just fine!!!! These are people I've known for years. Miracles happen...The biggest is still a sinner coming to the Savior and being redeemed by the blood! The word says on this note angels rejoice!!
Praise to our Healing, never-changing Jesus, the Son of God!
Barry
Let me try this again. I was in a hurry and didn't realize that my reply never actually materialized:
Can you get the before and after sonagrams? | | Back to Top | | |
|
Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 9/14/2004 9:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hems, shadows, and mere earshot of Jesus or apostles seem to be enough to heal. God was cutting people a lot of slack back then? No, He was actually healing back then, without nebulus formulas and incantations.
There were alot of people who touched the hem of his garment who rubbed up against him who were not healed. Jesus attributed the healing to her faith saying her faith made her whole. Jesus didn't even know who touched him for he asked the question who touched my clothes. She put faith in the teahings of Jesus that he wanted to heal all who were oppressed of the devil and she received the healing by saying if I might just touch the hem of his garment I shall be healed. No we don't have Jesus physically here today but we touch the hem of his garment by prayer and thanksgiving...question is though how many will do what she did....say if I pray to the Lord and receive by faith I shall be made whole....well maybe not many....if healing is done away with then faith is done away with for it was her faith that made her whole...or in other words it caused a release of the healing power of God to take place....if faith is done away with then so is salvation for its through faith that we are saved....
| | Back to Top | | |
| 101 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 5:23 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|