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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/17/2003 3:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | If we take the D-day analogy, here is conflict, suffering and an inability to assign specific meanings to individual acts of tragedy(some done by friendly fire), although the final goal is clear and success is certain.
This may help us cope with suffering but what are its ecclesiological implications? Have we reached an agreement as to the best way to help establish the Kingdom of God by beating down the gates of Hades? Military regiments do not debate their goals in a war and they certainly are not democratic bodies. As such, what room would the spiritual warfare theodicy have for the importance of the priesthood of the believers? Clearly, we should all strive to become prayer-warriors and to share about Christ with others, but how do we coordinate what we should be praying for. Like if we are praying for our leaders, what should we be praying for them to do, to not go to war in Iraq, or to go to war in Iraq and to promote increased democracy in the Middle East in general? Religious people are generally more likely to do acts, like voting, which benefit themselves little but serve a higher purpose if done by many people(We call this over-coming the "free-rider" problem in Economics). Religious leaders have, thus, tended to have unusually higher sway in politics for much of history. One could argue that Christianity is strong in the US now when it was dying slowly in Europe after centuries of inculcation because religious leaders here remained autonomous of the powers that be and Churches served as intermediaries between their congregants and the "powers that be".
Given that this has been the case for so much of history, why should we expect things to be different today and that Separation of Church/State means their segregation not autonomy.
I can remember growing up in a small Baptist Church in MN where my folks were part of the leadership. I felt their frustration when couldn't agree on things like whether the Church should take the money they had in the Bank( which was for an expansion plan that was cancelled long ago) and use it to make improvements so they could attract more members and perhaps expand eventually(as they did later). But at root there was this sense that something was terribly wrong with the Church over their inability to agree. I contrast this with Jewish Synagogues, which have similar governance structure and conceive of their rabbis in the same way as Baptist conceive of their Pastors:as individuals called to study the Bible and Christian Traditions, rather than someone who has any intrinsic higher ability to decide on ordinary church matters), and they just seem to be used to disagreeing all the time on all sorts of things.
From this, I concluded that perhaps the problem is the expectation that we should agree on ecclesiastical governance issues.
So the Spiritual Warfare metaphor falls short for me because it abstracts from the Problem of Ecclesiastical Order and that problem is what I think Protestants need to do a better job of addressing.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 04/18/2003 9:14:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/18/2003 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | One needn't neglect issues of ecclesiological order as they hold to a warfare worldview.
Holding to a warfare worldview needn't entail neglect of issues related to eccelsiological order.
One could argue we should address issues of ecclesiastical order precisely because we are at war.
The captain fo the army is not an earthly person, but Jesus. He gives direction to church bodies through leaders and to each soldier individually. This might mean that we should be more intent on teaching people to listen to the captain than we are gaining control over how we think it should look and operate.
Just a thought.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/18/2003 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
One needn't neglect issues of ecclesiological order as they hold to a warfare worldview.
Holding to a warfare worldview needn't entail neglect of issues related to eccelsiological order.
One could argue we should address issues of ecclesiastical order precisely because we are at war.
The captain fo the army is not an earthly person, but Jesus. He gives direction to church bodies through leaders and to each soldier individually. This might mean that we should be more intent on teaching people to listen to the captain than we are gaining control over how we think it should look and operate.
Just a thought.
Greg
I agree Jesus is the Captain and his orders are for everybody. But my point was that the D-Day example, while illuminating in some respects, doesn't help in others. It presumes that the taking of Normandy Beach is clear in our minds and the question only regards the means. I don't think we think enough about what the kingdom of God entails. In the Reform tradition, they typically devote more energy to this sort of thing.
As described in Grenz's "renewing the center", protestants, in general, do not put much time and energy into Ecclesiology. I think that this is, in part, because it may seem more mundane than rigorous theology or spiritual warfare, but setting out the possibilities for how we should govern ourselves within our churches and the various ways we may concentrate our ministry through empirical analysis and comparison of the numerous approaches that exist may help churches make better choices, identify problems earlier, and be more open-minded in how they relate to other Christians.
The focus is on concrete institutions rather than abstract spiritual entities because it is through these institutions that we fight the forces of this world and maybe directing attention to the spiritual forces could revive old fears and superstitions and do more harm than good.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/18/2003 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Changed the title, from bad to imperfect. You see this is not warfare, this is conflict over the meaning of Open Theism above and beyond individuals being able to choose to or not to accept Jesus as their saviour.
It is a broader form of apologetics regarding the onto-theologies that direct our Christian Walks. As well as a call to dwell on praxis.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/10/2003 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | I think of the homosexuality link in the Apologetics forum and how the topic that homosexuals may be under the influence of a demon or spirit or something.
I took the stance that the material/spiritual dichotomy wasn't that real and that deemphasizing the spiritual nature of the conflict didn't mean that one was neglecting the spiritual side of things.
I think that one of Satan's lies is that the Spiritual world is more powerful and more important.
I see this with the Harry Potter books. As is illustrated by Boyd's Spiritual Warfare books, it really does just return to the simple theme that there are two sides of reality and the spiritual side, which is the world of the witches/others, is actually more real and important than the material side.
I think too many people fall into these lies and are prone to over-reacting to mention of spiritual forces. That and they don't realize that if the spiritual/material sides of reality are not so distinct then we already have in place institutions that shield us from dominion in some ways, but maybe not others.
I also think that talk about the spiritual world gets too Star-Warsy too quickly.
Anyways, those are some reasons why I focus on the problem of order in my OVTheology.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | brought this back up for BWH's sake.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 8/21/2003 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | taken and pasted from another forum...
God in the console
www.msnbc.com/news/954674.asp?0dm=N11NT
By Tom Loftus
MSNBC
Aug. 20 — Before “god mode” or “god games” there were “God games” — low budget, PC floppy disks that married evangelical Christian thought and scripture with simple game play. The boundaries between the holy and the secular were simpler then. You had your “Heaven Quest” on the one hand, your arcade shoot-em-up on the other.
TODAY, THE LINES have grown fuzzier. Some of the most successful religious games are more subtle in their messaging. “Secular” games, while remaining faithful to the usual cast of characters — aliens, elves, soldiers and athletes — have grown ever more complex and all-encompassing in scope; triggering questions of reality that are almost theological in nature.
Will firing up the game console ever be considered a sacred act?
COVERT CHRISTIAN GAMING
“Eternal Wars: The Shadow of Light” is not the type of game Ned Flanders of the “The Simpsons” would buy for his do-good sons Rod and Todd. Built with the “Quake” game engine, “Eternal Light” is a first-person shooter: You are an angel named Mike sent by God to battle assorted demon spawn. The prize: the soul of a troubled teenager.
For Mackenzie Ponech, president of the development company Two Guys Software, the purpose was to deliver a Christian message, but not at the expense of game play.
“We focus on building great games without shoving the bible down your throat,” he said.
Evil tastes righteousness in "Eternal Wars."
While some Christian games remain focused on edutainment or tacking on a Bible-related story to a popular arcade classic, Ponech and a small number of other developers are at the forefront of a new trend in Christian game development: sophisticated game play, bigger budgets and a less overt message.
At the Christian Game Developers Conference last month, one classroom handout illustrated the evangelical challenge: “The game is a smart vehicle. It satisfies a game player’s technological expectations, while subtly (and effectively) delivering God’s message.”
And God’s message, among these sophisticated developers, is open to wide interpretation — game content-wise — with some notable limits, of course.
“No sex,” said Ralph Bagley, president of Christian game developer N’Lightning. Nor, said Bagley, can a Christian game contain gratuitous violence or a positive portrayal of the occult. “There have been too many games,” said Bagley, “Where the devil always wins or is one of the strongest characters.”
But that’s not to say the occult is ignored. N’Lightning has spent $2.4 million in two games where Satan almost plays the lead role. In “Catechumen” you are a Christian skulking around catacombs in pagan Rome. When you smote a demon with the biblically approved “sword of the Spirit” they disappear. Heathen humans don’t die when struck; they cry “Hallelujah.”
“Ominous Horizons: A Paladin’s Calling,” N’Lightning’s latest game, has the player moving across time and continents battling Druids and Mayans in the search for the original Gutenberg Bible, which in this scenario was stolen by the devil. The action is brisk, the puzzles complex and while the Christian message is obvious, it doesn’t interfere with enjoying the game.
Evil is present. And where’s there’s evil, there’s conflict. And without conflict, there’s no drama. And who wants to play “Adventures in Candyland” anyway?
Bagley summed it up: “I just don’t want to be another two guys in the garage creating cheesy Christian games.”
OFF THE SHELF RELIGION
Whether used as metaphor, artifice or a way of shaping a story, religion appears in secular gaming as well.
Start with the obvious. There is the “god mode,” a hack that allows players to pass through walls, take no damage, etc. Then there are the so called “god games” which describe the player’s relationship vis-a-vis the game play. Think of “Sim City,” where the player, from high above, creates a world. Another “god game,” “Civilization: Call to Power” even provides players with the option of creating a theocracy. “Black & White,” released in 2001, took god games to the extreme, tasking the player with creating a god to be loved (or feared) by fickle mortals.
All praise the cow. The temple provides the seat of a deity's power in "Black & White"
Few sites dig for religious undertones in secular gaming better than the Christian Spotlight’s Guide to Games: “I’m honestly disappointed in the spiritual content of WW. The Great Fairies somewhat resemble the Hindu goddess Shiva,” reads the site’s review of Nintendo’s “The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Walker.” “Every few minutes it’s ‘the gods this, and the gods that...’.”
At another level, belief systems have been incorporated into virtual characters. In “EverQuest,” the massive online multiplayer game, new players are asked to pick from among the religions native to the land of Norrath. One of Norrath’s deities, “The Nameless” has triggered talk on discussion boards over whether “Nameless” could be understood as the Jewish Yahweh.
Some evangelists have even used “EverQuest” to proselytize to fellow players.
“On the plus side, “EverQuest” is a great place to preach the gospel,” reads the Christian Spotlight’s Guide to Games. We can take forth our God, even in a fantasy world... because the people there aren’t just fantasies, they are people with souls.”
FINDING GOD IN GRAND THEFT AUTO
To Denver Post game reviewer David Thomas, all this discussion about literal displays of religion in games misses the point. “These doctrine based games aren’t interesting,” he said.
Religion lies deeper. In a column on his Web site, “Buzzcut,” Thomas wrote, “The structure of games themselves have, what seems to me, a fundamentally theological message.”
Take, for example, the existential challenge of a game. The player is dropped in a universe created by someone — the programmer — with a master plan. “I think if you believe there is theological structure with rules, purpose and an ethical system, you’re telling people there is a purpose.” Thomas said.
“Part of the game experience is dealing with a strange set or rules and your learning by just fiddling with the rule set,” Thomas told MSNBC.com. “What’s that like. Well it could be interpreted as a person’s experience with God.”
In 1972’s text-based “Adventure,” the purpose was navigating “a maze of twisty little passages, all alike,” Thomas said. Today’s gamers navigate mob relationships in “Grand Theft Auto.” Two games, two different moralities, but all the same in the grand theological scheme according to Thomas.
Marshall McLuhan, the media philosopher, talked about how media technology shapes knowledge and influences a return to collective ways of perceiving the world. The immersive, increasingly hyper-real experience of games, according to Thomas, triggers a whole set of questions on faith, purpose and ultimately, truth.
“The average game player can sort out the difference between killing something in a game, and killing someone in real life,” said Thomas. “But do they think about the cosmological implications of pretending to be someone in an interactive world created by someone else?”
They may not need to, but according to Lynn Shofield Clark, a media professor at the University of Colorado, they do find something else. Clark studies the dynamics between media and kids.
“Young people are at a stage where they feel powerless,” she said. “Games are a way to approach those situations, to discover what is truth.”
COMMON GROUND
Christian game developers seek to put God in the machine, while thinkers like Thomas and Clark say that the notion of God is already there. Differing opinions, but both hold a core belief: A game’s influence doesn’t end when you turn off the console.
One day perhaps, as games grow larger in size and more realistic in play, a modern day St. Augustine will write some treatise on the notions of truth and morality in game play. Until then, gamers will have to negotiate those mazes of “twisty little passages,” on their own.
“There’s actually a pretty positive message in games,” said Thomas. “You find it in “Grand Theft Auto,” “Doom,” “The Sims,” all those games. And that’s the idea that there’s somebody out there with a plan for me.”
http://www.msnbc.com/news/954674.asp?0dm=N11NT
Looking
for religion
in video games
Link, hero of "The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Walker," gazes at the heavens.
By Tom Loftus
MSNBC
Aug. 20 — Before “god mode” or “god games” there were “God games” — low budget, PC floppy disks that married evangelical Christian thought and scripture with simple game play. The boundaries between the holy and the secular were simpler then. You had your “Heaven Quest” on the one hand, your arcade shoot-em-up on the other.
TODAY, THE LINES have grown fuzzier. Some of the most successful religious games are more subtle in their messaging. “Secular” games, while remaining faithful to the usual cast of characters — aliens, elves, soldiers and athletes — have grown ever more complex and all-encompassing in scope; triggering questions of reality that are almost theological in nature.
Will firing up the game console ever be considered a sacred act?
COVERT CHRISTIAN GAMING
“Eternal Wars: The Shadow of Light” is not the type of game Ned Flanders of the “The Simpsons” would buy for his do-good sons Rod and Todd. Built with the “Quake” game engine, “Eternal Light” is a first-person shooter: You are an angel named Mike sent by God to battle assorted demon spawn. The prize: the soul of a troubled teenager.
For Mackenzie Ponech, president of the development company Two Guys Software, the purpose was to deliver a Christian message, but not at the expense of game play.
“We focus on building great games without shoving the bible down your throat,” he said.
Evil tastes righteousness in "Eternal Wars."
While some Christian games remain focused on edutainment or tacking on a Bible-related story to a popular arcade classic, Ponech and a small number of other developers are at the forefront of a new trend in Christian game development: sophisticated game play, bigger budgets and a less overt message.
At the Christian Game Developers Conference last month, one classroom handout illustrated the evangelical challenge: “The game is a smart vehicle. It satisfies a game player’s technological expectations, while subtly (and effectively) delivering God’s message.”
And God’s message, among these sophisticated developers, is open to wide interpretation — game content-wise — with some notable limits, of course.
“No sex,” said Ralph Bagley, president of Christian game developer N’Lightning. Nor, said Bagley, can a Christian game contain gratuitous violence or a positive portrayal of the occult. “There have been too many games,” said Bagley, “Where the devil always wins or is one of the strongest characters.”
But that’s not to say the occult is ignored. N’Lightning has spent $2.4 million in two games where Satan almost plays the lead role. In “Catechumen” you are a Christian skulking around catacombs in pagan Rome. When you smote a demon with the biblically approved “sword of the Spirit” they disappear. Heathen humans don’t die when struck; they cry “Hallelujah.”
“Ominous Horizons: A Paladin’s Calling,” N’Lightning’s latest game, has the player moving across time and continents battling Druids and Mayans in the search for the original Gutenberg Bible, which in this scenario was stolen by the devil. The action is brisk, the puzzles complex and while the Christian message is obvious, it doesn’t interfere with enjoying the game.
Evil is present. And where’s there’s evil, there’s conflict. And without conflict, there’s no drama. And who wants to play “Adventures in Candyland” anyway?
Bagley summed it up: “I just don’t want to be another two guys in the garage creating cheesy Christian games.”
OFF THE SHELF RELIGION
Whether used as metaphor, artifice or a way of shaping a story, religion appears in secular gaming as well.
Start with the obvious. There is the “god mode,” a hack that allows players to pass through walls, take no damage, etc. Then there are the so called “god games” which describe the player’s relationship vis-a-vis the game play. Think of “Sim City,” where the player, from high above, creates a world. Another “god game,” “Civilization: Call to Power” even provides players with the option of creating a theocracy. “Black & White,” released in 2001, took god games to the extreme, tasking the player with creating a god to be loved (or feared) by fickle mortals.
All praise the cow. The temple provides the seat of a deity's power in "Black & White"
Few sites dig for religious undertones in secular gaming better than the Christian Spotlight’s Guide to Games: “I’m honestly disappointed in the spiritual content of WW. The Great Fairies somewhat resemble the Hindu goddess Shiva,” reads the site’s review of Nintendo’s “The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Walker.” “Every few minutes it’s ‘the gods this, and the gods that...’.”
At another level, belief systems have been incorporated into virtual characters. In “EverQuest,” the massive online multiplayer game, new players are asked to pick from among the religions native to the land of Norrath. One of Norrath’s deities, “The Nameless” has triggered talk on discussion boards over whether “Nameless” could be understood as the Jewish Yahweh.
Some evangelists have even used “EverQuest” to proselytize to fellow players.
“On the plus side, “EverQuest” is a great place to preach the gospel,” reads the Christian Spotlight’s Guide to Games. We can take forth our God, even in a fantasy world... because the people there aren’t just fantasies, they are people with souls.”
FINDING GOD IN GRAND THEFT AUTO
To Denver Post game reviewer David Thomas, all this discussion about literal displays of religion in games misses the point. “These doctrine based games aren’t interesting,” he said.
Religion lies deeper. In a column on his Web site, “Buzzcut,” Thomas wrote, “The structure of games themselves have, what seems to me, a fundamentally theological message.”
Take, for example, the existential challenge of a game. The player is dropped in a universe created by someone — the programmer — with a master plan. “I think if you believe there is theological structure with rules, purpose and an ethical system, you’re telling people there is a purpose.” Thomas said.
“Part of the game experience is dealing with a strange set or rules and your learning by just fiddling with the rule set,” Thomas told MSNBC.com. “What’s that like. Well it could be interpreted as a person’s experience with God.”
In 1972’s text-based “Adventure,” the purpose was navigating “a maze of twisty little passages, all alike,” Thomas said. Today’s gamers navigate mob relationships in “Grand Theft Auto.” Two games, two different moralities, but all the same in the grand theological scheme according to Thomas.
Marshall McLuhan, the media philosopher, talked about how media technology shapes knowledge and influences a return to collective ways of perceiving the world. The immersive, increasingly hyper-real experience of games, according to Thomas, triggers a whole set of questions on faith, purpose and ultimately, truth.
“The average game player can sort out the difference between killing something in a game, and killing someone in real life,” said Thomas. “But do they think about the cosmological implications of pretending to be someone in an interactive world created by someone else?”
They may not need to, but according to Lynn Shofield Clark, a media professor at the University of Colorado, they do find something else. Clark studies the dynamics between media and kids.
“Young people are at a stage where they feel powerless,” she said. “Games are a way to approach those situations, to discover what is truth.”
COMMON GROUND
Christian game developers seek to put God in the machine, while thinkers like Thomas and Clark say that the notion of God is already there. Differing opinions, but both hold a core belief: A game’s influence doesn’t end when you turn off the console.
One day perhaps, as games grow larger in size and more realistic in play, a modern day St. Augustine will write some treatise on the notions of truth and morality in game play. Until then, gamers will have to negotiate those mazes of “twisty little passages,” on their own.
“There’s actually a pretty positive message in games,” said Thomas. “You find it in “Grand Theft Auto,” “Doom,” “The Sims,” all those games. And that’s the idea that there’s somebody out there with a plan for me.”
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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