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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 4/24/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | From Warrior Politics:
"Machiavelli believed that because Christianity glorified the meek, it allowed the world to be dominated by the wicked: he preferred a pagan ethic that elevated self-preservation over the Christian ethic of sacrifice, which he considered hypocritical."
True, false...all opinions welcomed...
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BJS
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| Posted 4/24/2003 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting question.
I think his opinion stemmed from an errant concept of Christian meekness. Certainly, Christ called for meekness, but he also called us to love our neighbors, which can only mean that we must at times physically protect them.
So while Christ would of course not have shared in Machiavelli's imperialistic tendencies for war, I do not believe that Christianity stands for a meekness that does not defend against the "domination of the wicked."
Would you agree?
Brett
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/24/2003 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | I think one can love one's enemies while politically opposing them.
Ultimately, since for a political/democratic system to work ideally it does require self-sacrifice, people putting far more time and energy into studying issues beyond what they could expect to receive as a personal remuneration, self-sacrifice is more important than self-preservation in politics.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/24/2003 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Can a policeman love his neighbor as himself while he uses physical force to restrain this same neighbor from committing violence against others? I definitely think so, if we view true godly love properly speaking as a motive which brings about a choice to act in the best interest of all concerned.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 4/24/2003 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | I too would have to fall on the side of a misunderstanding of meekness. Not only is meekness misunderstood, but glory belongs to God alone, Christianity does not glorify the meek. I could see why the statement could make sense to someone depending on their definition of meek and obscure understanding that Christianity would glorify the meek, but I think the statement is off.
The greatest attempt at self-preservation we can make is to have faith in Christ Jesus as we are saved by grace through faith. An ethic of self-sacrifice eminates from the knowledge of our salvation. Therefore perhaps self-preservation and self-sacrifice are in a dialectic relationship to one another.
not sure if that was worth two cents or not....
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 4/25/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | The book I got this quote from, Warrior Politics, is subtitled Why Leadership Demands A Pagan Ethic, is an excellant meditation on war and relations between nations. However, I do think the author is under a mistaken concept of what Christianity is. I think taking Christ's Sermon on The Mount quotes (blessed are the meek) and using it as the primer and whole of your view on how to violence and war is to overemphasize one part of scripture. Still, it is an interesting quote and I am still trying to figure out how I view this subject...thanks for all the responses...
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DLW
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| Posted 4/25/2003 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The book I got this quote from, Warrior Politics, is subtitled Why Leadership Demands A Pagan Ethic, is an excellant meditation on war and relations between nations. However, I do think the author is under a mistaken concept of what Christianity is. I think taking Christ's Sermon on The Mount quotes (blessed are the meek) and using it as the primer and whole of your view on how to violence and war is to overemphasize one part of scripture. Still, it is an interesting quote and I am still trying to figure out how I view this subject...thanks for all the responses...
Frank Knight, the perennial figure that influence the UChicago Economic Dept, was from a conservative Baptist background that he rejected. What he wrote about Christianity was that it emphasized the love-ethic and personal relations, but didn't deal with the problem of order, forming rules that would apply to numerous people in an impersonal manner so as to ensure their behavior met certain basic standards necessary for social cohesion. And that those rules cannot be modelled on a love-ethic since that would tend to promote anarchy.
I think the dude from your book has a similar view. But I think that a return to the importance of the problem of order can be done within Christianity and make us better situated to advocates of paganism like him.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 4/25/2003 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | I would put it this way: I believe what the author proposes can be grafed onto Christianity in an effective way.
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/25/2003 12:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I would put it this way: I believe what the author proposes can be grafed onto Christianity in an effective way.
I agree, but we should always use care in grafting on stuff from non-Christian sources into Christianity.
A lot of the Arminianism/Calvinism stuff comes from Neo-Platonism being grafted onto Christianity with little reference to the Bible(Apparently, Augustine didn't know Hebrew and had access to a rather bad translation(He didn't have access to the Vulgate.)).
In my view, the two things that are needed most in politics are civility and transparency. I.e., socially-enforced rules for what one can and cannot say about opponents and an openness regarding the extent to which gov'ts do and should serve economic interests in providing stability to property, while also permitting what is property to be altered with changing economic and social conditions.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 4/25/2003 2:59 PM (GMT -6) | | While I understand the sentiment, DLW, the problem with that is there will always be people who will not abide by any rules, who will attempt to cheat and lie and steal and kill to get where they want, which is usually power. So how is one civil, protecting of the poor, and run a government that is somewhat secure and be open? That is the problem...
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/25/2003 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
While I understand the sentiment, DLW, the problem with that is there will always be people who will not abide by any rules, who will attempt to cheat and lie and steal and kill to get where they want, which is usually power. So how is one civil, protecting of the poor, and run a government that is somewhat secure and be open? That is the problem...
Forgive me for not understanding, in what way are we disagreeing? The inherent problems of reconciling our ideals of freedoms with the realities of how people will abuse those freedoms is at the heart of the problem of order.
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
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| Posted 4/25/2003 6:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
While I understand the sentiment, DLW, the problem with that is there will always be people who will not abide by any rules, who will attempt to cheat and lie and steal and kill to get where they want, which is usually power. So how is one civil, protecting of the poor, and run a government that is somewhat secure and be open? That is the problem...
Again, I think the real issue here is that we are confusing Church with State. The two must never be united until the fullness of Christ's Kingdom is realized on earth. Until then, we as Christians are in the world but not of the world.
I say let the government do their job, let the Christians be salt and light as much as they are able to, working to influence society through peaceable political means, and never confuse Church and State. When Church and State are not clearly differentiated, Inquisition is the result, as was sadly true in the Middle Ages and early reformation. So-called Christians putting others to death for being "heretics." What a shame.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/26/2003 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
While I understand the sentiment, DLW, the problem with that is there will always be people who will not abide by any rules, who will attempt to cheat and lie and steal and kill to get where they want, which is usually power. So how is one civil, protecting of the poor, and run a government that is somewhat secure and be open? That is the problem...
Again, I think the real issue here is that we are confusing Church with State. The two must never be united until the fullness of Christ's Kingdom is realized on earth. Until then, we as Christians are in the world but not of the world.
I say let the government do their job, let the Christians be salt and light as much as they are able to, working to influence society through peaceable political means, and never confuse Church and State. When Church and State are not clearly differentiated, Inquisition is the result, as was sadly true in the Middle Ages and early reformation. So-called Christians putting others to death for being "heretics." What a shame.
Earp, you should be aware that the segregation of Church and State is only one interpretation of what is meant by their separation. An alternative, which was prevalent at the time when our country was formed was the autonomy of the Church and State.
"we as Christians are in the world but not of the world."
I would agree, in general, but what does it mean to not be of the world? We should have different priorities, but sometimes, as illustrated in the thinking of John Perkins, valuing the things the world values can serve as a bridge to addressing their true spiritual needs.
"Christians be salt and light as much as they are able to, working to influence society through peaceable political means"
I don't see that either Honorman or I were advocating any return to the Medieval Ages. I am not sure what you mean by peaceable political means. I agree that the goal should not be to capture the gov't and to impose God's will or the City of God. But, as argued elsewhere, I think that a serious problem today is that many conservative Christians have no cultivated habits of serious political reflection and, as such, are easily manipulated regarding how they use their political capital with the effect being that unnecessary barriers are set up that make it harder to reach non-Christians with the Gospel.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/26/2003 7:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"Christians be salt and light as much as they are able to, working to influence society through peaceable political means"
I don't see that either Honorman or I were advocating any return to the Medieval Ages. I am not sure what you mean by peaceable political means.
When I use the term, "peaceful political means," I mean, "peaceful political means," as opposed to "violent political means."
When I hear someone talking about grafting a Machiavellian paradigm onto Christianity, the first thing that comes to mind is the Spanish Inquisition.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/26/2003 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
When I use the term, "peaceful political means," I mean, "peaceful political means," as opposed to "violent political means."
When I hear someone talking about grafting a Machiavellian paradigm onto Christianity, the first thing that comes to mind is the Spanish Inquisition.
I would presume that political means are peaceable, as opposed to taking power through revolution or the threat of force. However, in any form of gov't the monopoly of the state on violence still plays a role, though fortunately more limited. Of course, still peaceable election campaigns can do much harm to the major participants due to the effectiveness of mud-slinging.
In a way, I guess I do advocate a grafting on of a Machiavellian paradigm. To understand Machiavelli, you have to understand his context where much infighting among city-states were preventing Italy from taking advantage of the relative peacefulness of having a nation-state that Spain and other countries were benefitting from. He may have been trying to cull lessons from history on how to rise to power and stay in power because he thought that would serve the greater good. One could say that the idea that the ends justify the means may be worthy of consideration from a Christian point of view. I believe the problem of order view tries to do this. The thing is that, there are unintended consequences from these actions and to acheive political power(as the Church did in Spain) provides for the opportunity for evil to be done(this is metaphysical dualism and Lord Acton). In my view, I think the tension between the belief that good may be done if power is acquired and the potential for more evil than good to be done with that power is ubiquitous and hard to conclusively resolve. So my view of what the Christian basis for political activism should be is the following: active involvement by Christians in politics can be glorifying to God if done in an ethical manner that respects the separation of Church and State by not being dogmatic in its political goals while seeking to widen the range of interests that potentially can be served by the
government.
Generally speaking, any change in the general level of participation in politics will harm some interests and help others. An emphasis on not-being-of this world may mean not to get involved in its political disputes. This may be justified, but then again our decision to not participate may increase the relative sway of the democracy of the dollar over popular democracy in these decisions and that may not be desirable for the purpose of spreading the Gospel. (Note:I try not to use manicheistic language in depicting the positions of the Democratic or Republican party or advocating that we should support one position or another(although I do advocate some positions elsewhere). I am basically advocating that an involvement in politics may, ultimately, be glorifying to God.)
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/26/2003 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Do we really desire as Christians to "control" others? As quite the heretic myself, I shudder to think what would happen if the Calvinists (or the Open-Theists for that matter) had political power to "control" (or at least try to control) others.
Calvin's treatment of Servetus is a prime example of how a politicized Christianity can very quickly turn into a "Christian" version of the Taliban.
It seems to me that for the Christian, it is not about attaining or maintaining political power (control over others), but about serving others in love. To cite Scriptures to demonstrate this point I think should be quite unnecessary, but...
Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
Gal 5:13 ¶ For you were called to freedom, brethren; only {do} not {turn} your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
2 Cor. 1:24 not that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers for your joy. For by faith ye stand.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/26/2003 2:31:04 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 4/26/2003 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Do we really desire as Christians to "control" others? As quite the heretic myself, I shudder to think what would happen if the Calvinists (or the Open-Theists for that matter) had political power to "control" (or at least try to control) others.
Calvin's treatment of Servetus is a prime example of how a politicized Christianity can very quickly turn into a "Christian" version of the Taliban.
It seems to me that for the Christian, it is not about attaining or maintaining political power (control over others), but about serving others in love. To cite Scriptures to demonstrate this point I think should be quite unnecessary, but...
Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
Gal 5:13 ¶ For you were called to freedom, brethren; only {do} not {turn} your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
2 Cor. 1:24 not that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers for your joy. For by faith ye stand.
I don't think anyone wants to exert the power to control others, just like no-one enjoys asking another person to curtail their activities on a discussion board. It is because of the consequences of our sinfulness on others that order, the concentration of power, is needed.
I agree that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, but as stated before the need for governance/decision-making is given. So when we shrink from power or being participants in the decision-making process, this ends up allowing others to have more power/corruption. So even though we may seem to ourselves to be pure, the price of our purity is that we have permitted others to have far more sway over others lives than any sinful/fallible individual should.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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