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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/8/2003 11:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | apologies for the title, but I've noticed numerous links started up on this subject and I am wondering why its popularity has gone up on the board.
I just don't attach that much significance to Hell and how we understand it, while still affirming its existence and reality. It just seems that what matters most is avoiding it and obeying Jesus in trying to be good disciples and help establish the kingdom of God.
But doing that requires paying attention to the big questions and issues and controversies of this world, not the next, not issues like how many angels can dance on the head of a needle or whether there is sex in heaven or what is hell really like.
I don't think these topics really groove with non-christians for the most part, anyways. People that buy into Church as fire-insurance will never be very strong, they will never be disciples capable of building up the Christianity of others.
So I think the whole subject is over-wrought.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/8/2003 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | To me the topic is important- the traditional view of hell is something that is hard to reconcile with an all-loving God- and so that is one reason why people try to determine how some type of a hell can be consistent with an omnipotent omnibenevolent being- the Bible clearly alludes to some type of a hell or separation from God.
I agree the fear of hell should not be a motivator for being a Christian - but I imagine it is for a lot of people. B/c if there is no final judgment and punishment, there really is not much incentive to be a Christian other than missing out on being with God for eternity. But if I simply cease to exist completely, i will have no consciousness or awareness of what I am missing out on. There ARE earthly benefits to being a Christian too of course, but so are there for being in any other religion - and also, face it, God causes it to rain on the just and the unjust. There's not much earthly justice, so people look forward to the day when God will rectify that. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/8/2003 1:46 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with ReasonableDoubt. Hell is not talked about enough in churches in this country at least. Not to say that we ought to focus on the negative, but much of the Christian tenents are based on the idea of Hell.
For example, when we say a person is "saved", what are they saved from? Or, if most people believe you can go to Heaven by just being a "good person", where does someone go who isn't "good", and what defines a person as such?
You must understand that before Christ, the Hebrews only had a vague view of the afterlife. In fact, they used a general term called "Sheol". A place where the righteous would be with God and have reward, and the unrighteous without God and facing punishment. But they had no clear imagry of knowledge of the afterlife at all. When Jesus came on the scene, He revealed to all of us many of the details of the afterlife. Perhaps most importantly that HE would be the judge of everyone and only through HIM would we get to be with God.
Fast forward to today where Orthodox Jews think because of the covenant with Abraham that it's impossible for them to not go to Hell (They'll say Hell's a Gentile problem). As Jesus pointed out, simply saying "We have Abraham as our father" is insufficient to gain access to the Kingdom. I believe that's partly why Jesus talked a lot more about Hell and the coming judgement than Heaven. Many don't take Hell (or even the afterlife) very seriously which is incomprehensible since just about everyone agrees that everyone will die someday.
The early church certainly believed in Hell, and so did the medieval church. In fact, some torturing of people were done with good intentions to give them a taste of what Hell would be like (to their belief).
Just because these topics "don't groove" with most Christians, doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them the whole truth. I liken it to being on airplane which is going to crash.
"The plane's gonna crash! You need to take this parachute. It's the only way you'll survive!"
"But I don't want it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I seem to be doing fine. And besides, why is wearing a parachute the 'only way'?"
"Well, Ok then, if it bothers you. But this parachute though is actually quite comfortable and will enhance and enrich your life and make you feel good about yourself. Wouldn't you like to try it on now?"
You are correct that those who adopt the "Well I'm saved so I'll just sit back and relax" attitude will never truly grow and experience the blessing of being a Christian. But Jesus also said that there is more rejoicing over one who repents than the ninety-nine that do not need to. That should say a lot about the significance of being "saved".
"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him"
- Heb 9:27-28
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/8/2003 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I agree with ReasonableDoubt. Hell is not talked about enough in churches in this country at least. Not to say that we ought to focus on the negative, but much of the Christian tenents are based on the idea of Hell.
How about discipleship? How about the radicality of the Gospel and what our lives could be like if we tried to live up to its standards? How about studying the history of Christianity and learning more about the cultural context of the scriptures and the complexities of hermeneutics? How about the importance of apologetics, interacting with non-Christian thought and trying to understand what intellectual road-blocks may be keeping them from becoming Christians?
I mean I think all of the above should be given far more attention than is currently given in Churches.
quote:
For example, when we say a person is "saved", what are they saved from? Or, if most people believe you can go to Heaven by just being a "good person", where does someone go who isn't "good", and what defines a person as such?
But doesn't this follow from basic Theological literacy of which the reality of consequences of the choices we make in how we relate to God is only a part?
quote:
You must understand that before Christ, the Hebrews only had a vague view of the afterlife. In fact, they used a general term called "Sheol". A place where the righteous would be with God and have reward, and the unrighteous without God and facing punishment. But they had no clear imagry of knowledge of the afterlife at all. When Jesus came on the scene, He revealed to all of us many of the details of the afterlife.
Did he or didn't he? There is quite a heterogeneity of ways that Jesus referred to hell. Gehenna, or the garbage dump, is probably the prominent. However, maybe it would be best to say that rather than revealing specifically and concretely what hell is like, he just tried to make it more palpable to the general public with a metaphor they would understand. So, in fact, we are still in the same position as with the Old Testament regarding the specifics of what hell is like, but ultimately it comes down to not being with God. And if that doesn't jive people into conversion, nothing else would. I think of the story about Lazarus and the rich man who is suffering in hell in Luke 16:19-31. The richman wanted to have Lazarus appear to his brothers so they will be saved but Abraham told him they had Moses and the prophets and if that wasn't enough, nothing else would. Now the Old Testament didn't contain any definite depictions of hell as a place of eternal suffering. So it seems to me the passage is implying that how we depict hell isn't material to whether or not people will embrace God or reject God.
quote:
Perhaps most importantly that HE would be the judge of everyone and only through HIM would we get to be with God.
Yes, but this is quite distinct from how we understand hell.
quote:
Fast forward to today where Orthodox Jews think because of the covenant with Abraham that it's impossible for them to not go to Hell (They'll say Hell's a Gentile problem). As Jesus pointed out, simply saying "We have Abraham as our father" is insufficient to gain access to the Kingdom. I believe that's partly why Jesus talked a lot more about Hell and the coming judgement than Heaven. Many don't take Hell (or even the afterlife) very seriously which is incomprehensible since just about everyone agrees that everyone will die someday.
Okay, but the point is not that there is a definitive way to understand hell but rather falling away from becoming what God has intended for us to become is an act of extreme tragedy, not some Buddhist-like release from the burdens of existence.
quote:
The early church certainly believed in Hell, and so did the medieval church. In fact, some torturing of people were done with good intentions to give them a taste of what Hell would be like (to their belief).
Yes, it was believed that it was better to torture them than permit them to burn eternally in hell. Now you can see the aversion of the Jewish people, clearly going to hell, to such concept of hell?
So much of the traditional conception of hell is so much like the hades of Greek Mythology that it is good to deconstruct this as not "hell". But I don't think another unifying view of hell is needed to replace it.
quote:
Just because these topics "don't groove" with most Christians, doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them the whole truth. I liken it to being on airplane which is going to crash.
"The plane's gonna crash! You need to take this parachute. It's the only way you'll survive!"
"But I don't want it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I seem to be doing fine. And besides, why is wearing a parachute the 'only way'?"
"Well, Ok then, if it bothers you. But this parachute though is actually quite comfortable and will enhance and enrich your life and make you feel good about yourself. Wouldn't you like to try it on now?"
Yes, but putting the parachute on example denies the fact that there is a leap of faith involved. Just as giving a person a choice between spending eternity on the streets of gold or being tortured for eternity under extreme duress denies the real leap of faith. Who wouldn't say anything to stop someone from torturing them? Who wouldn't go through rituals as fire-insurance? Hasn't the church suffered much from supposed Christians doing much evil in the name of Christianity?
quote:
You are correct that those who adopt the "Well I'm saved so I'll just sit back and relax" attitude will never truly grow and experience the blessing of being a Christian. But Jesus also said that there is more rejoicing over one who repents than the ninety-nine that do not need to. That should say a lot about the significance of being "saved".
Yes, but if salvation is all that matters then what incentive do we have to grow in our faith to the point where we are mature enough to disciple others. Go and make disciples of all nations, not go and make converts of all nations were the last words of Christ, as I can recall...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/8/2003 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | | DLW- you have many good points- but the fact that you're arguing at all shows that there is importance to this topic! | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/9/2003 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | DWL,
quote:
How about discipleship? How about the radicality of the Gospel and what our lives could be like if we tried to live up to its standards? How about studying the history of Christianity and learning more about the cultural context of the scriptures and the complexities of hermeneutics? How about the importance of apologetics, interacting with non-Christian thought and trying to understand what intellectual road-blocks may be keeping them from becoming Christians?
NOW JUST YOU WAIT ONE MINUTE HERE, YOUNG MAN! (I can say that, because I'm 42-years-old, and I'm older than you, and ... so there!)
You want us to WHAT? Study church history, herme...herminu...Herman and his Nuetics? APOLOGETICS? Sheesh, DWL, are you crazy? We might get some smarts if we did that! (And thank heavens there ARE many smart folk on this site!)
Kiddin' ya, DWL!
I'm not one for quoting Scripture as a post and then gone be me, but I think Jesus' words are worth much (he did talk a lot about hell!): "Fear not him who can destroy your body, but fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell."
Now, I hardly have to be feared being throwin into the local garbage dump; I think Jesus had more in mind here than that! To both those who did and did not believe in Him, He spoke these words. Now, I don't have to go around fearing everyday that I might be tossed into hell, but "You shall die in your sins" isn't the greatest of pleasures to consider in view of "Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell."
We don't talk about hell a lot here, but when we do (and apparently we're on that roll right now), I think we are only respecting these sobering words of our Lord. Apparently, Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven, and I don't know that he was just refering to garbage dumps or that one would be annihiliated. There seemed to be more of a threat to it than that.
For staying the hell out of hell,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/09/2003 09:07:05 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DWL,
quote:
How about discipleship? How about the radicality of the Gospel and what our lives could be like if we tried to live up to its standards? How about studying the history of Christianity and learning more about the cultural context of the scriptures and the complexities of hermeneutics? How about the importance of apologetics, interacting with non-Christian thought and trying to understand what intellectual road-blocks may be keeping them from becoming Christians?
NOW JUST YOU WAIT ONE MINUTE HERE, YOUNG MAN! (I can say that, because I'm 42-years-old, and I'm older than you, and ... so there!)
You want us to WHAT? Study church history, herme...herminu...Herman and his Nuetics? APOLOGETICS? Sheesh, DWL, are you crazy? We might get some smarts if we did that! (And thank heavens there ARE many smart folk on this site!)
Kiddin' ya, DWL!
Starkey, now I know your old and probably dyslexic but my initials are DLW, not DWL.
quote:
I'm not one for quoting Scripture as a post and then gone be me, but I think Jesus' words are worth much (he did talk a lot about hell!): "Fear not him who can destroy your body, but fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell."
Now, I hardly have to be feared being throwin into the local garbage dump; I think Jesus had more in mind here than that! To both those who did and did not believe in Him, He spoke these words. Now, I don't have to go around fearing everyday that I might be tossed into hell, but "You shall die in your sins" isn't the greatest of pleasures to consider in view of "Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell."
I think you should try visiting more pre-industrial garbage dumps. Woooheeee, it don't get much worse than that!
quote:
We don't talk about hell a lot here, but when we do (and apparently we're on that roll right now), I think we are only respecting these sobering words of our Lord. Apparently, Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven, and I don't know that he was just refering to garbage dumps or that one would be annihiliated. There seemed to be more of a threat to it than that.
I reiterate myself, hell is where God ain't, we should be more concerned about our relationship with God than with staying alive.
Everything else is trimming. Gehenna may not make you quiver with fear, but it probably was an effective metaphor for the Jews of Yeshua's time. The point is that we shouldn't waste too much time and energy debating what hell is really like. The opportunity cost of our time is too great, IMHO.
dlw(not dwl).
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW- you have many good points- but the fact that you're arguing at all shows that there is importance to this topic!
Yes, but the importance hell is linked to the importance of God since it is the consequence of us failing to have a relationship with God.
forging an alternative to the traditional consensus view about what hell is like is a waste of our time and potentially an unnecessary source of division.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/9/2003 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Boy, DLL ... I mean, DWI (whoa! That's too close to DUI!) ...
Sorry 'bout getting your initials wrong (that's happened a few times to you, hasn't it! Maybe it has something to do with the way the letters look. Hmm ...)
Visit pre-industrial garbage dumps? No tanks! I'll take your word for it!
Oh, quite frankly I think Gehena was as equally meant to be literal eternal place of existence for the lost as much as it was the garbarge heap--Jesus' statement about fearing Him who can send both body and soul to hell brings the equivalent into being. So, I be feared of hell, Gehenna ... particularly after you used that "pre-industrialized" verbage. Peeeeeeuuuuu! Stay away from there!
Starkman
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Boy, DLL ... I mean, DWI (whoa! That's too close to DUI!) ...
Sorry 'bout getting your initials wrong (that's happened a few times to you, hasn't it! Maybe it has something to do with the way the letters look. Hmm ...)
Visit pre-industrial garbage dumps? No tanks! I'll take your word for it!
Oh, quite frankly I think Gehena was as equally meant to be literal eternal place of existence for the lost as much as it was the garbarge heap--Jesus' statement about fearing Him who can send both body and soul to hell brings the equivalent into being. So, I be feared of hell, Gehenna ... particularly after you used that "pre-industrialized" verbage. Peeeeeeuuuuu! Stay away from there!
Starkman
You and me, old-timer!
But what makes hell worth avoiding is not the literalness of any particular understanding of it but its realness based on the existence of God and how we make choices that affirm or deny a relationship with God.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/9/2003 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | DWL, I am one of those people who bought fire-insurance. One of those people you boldy and publicly state will never be very strong. Talk of hell saved my life. If the pastor had softened it any, I wouldn't be where I am today. Knowing the realities of hell caused me to humble myself and repent of my sin. I knew little about Jesus when I was saved, but contrary to your assertions, I grew and matured into a strong Christian. Gasp! According to you I will never be a disciple capable of building up Christianity of others.
Didn't your mama ever teach you to think before you speak?
"Nice" to meet you DWL.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DWL, I am one of those people who bought fire-insurance. One of those people you boldy and publicly state will never be very strong. Talk of hell saved my life. If the pastor had softened it any, I wouldn't be where I am today. Knowing the realities of hell caused me to humble myself and repent of my sin. I knew little about Jesus when I was saved, but contrary to your assertions, I grew and matured into a strong Christian. Gasp! According to you I will never be a disciple capable of building up Christianity of others.
Didn't your mama ever teach you to think before you speak?
"Nice" to meet you DWL.
I'm sorry Fleetwood. I praise God you grew in your faith, I didn't mean to say that everyone who, initially, seeks fire-insurance would then be confined to not maturing spiritually. I am not infallible. So fear of toasting for eternity got you into the Church? Do you think that you would not have been moved to enter a church if they had had an annihilationist view of hell or not focused on a particular view of hell as "the hell"?
I also know people who find comfort in their suffering from believing that God is in control and there is a reason, contrary to the claims of Open Theism. So yes, it isn't an exact science, but I still think that the specific manner in which we understand hell is of less significance than affirming the reality of God and the choices we make concerning our lives.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Electra,
if you don't mind playing God with us, we'd love to have you at the consequences re:WMD link.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW:
quote:
Who the hell cares about hell?
Hmmm... Who the $@&% cares about caring about hell?
Heh.
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra, did you just undergo a posting-address change?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:52 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW:
quote:
Electra, did you just undergo a posting-address change?
Not Electra. I was borrowing Electra's computer and I messed up and left her signed on. This is MEPH.
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/9/2003 3:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW:
quote:
Electra, did you just undergo a posting-address change?
Not Electra. I was borrowing Electra's computer and I messed up and left her signed on. This is MEPH.
Um sure Meph/Electra, whoever you are.
lets have at it...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2003 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, Meph. go see Como Park Zoo.
Growing up I could hear the seals from my house on a hot summmer's day.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/9/2003 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | (Psalm 119:25)
My soul cleaves to the dust, give me life according to Thy word.
(Psalm 119:37)
Turn my eyes from looking at vanities; and give me life in Thy ways.
(Psalm 119:40)
Behold, I long for Thy precepts; in Thy righteousness give me life.
(Psalm 119:144)
Thy testimonies are righteousness forever; give me understanding that I may live.
(Psalm 119:154)
Plead my cause, and redeem me; give me life according to Thy promise.
=====================================================
What earthly sweetness remains unmixed with grief?
What glory stands immutable on the earth?
All things are but feeble shadows,
all things are most deluding dreams,
yet one moment only, and death shall supplant them all.
But in the light of Thy countenance, 0 Christ,
and in the sweetness of Thy beauty,
give rest to him whom Thou hast chosen,
for as much as Thou lovest mankind.
I weep and lament when I think upon death,
and behold our beauty created in the likeness
of God lying in the tomb disfigured,
bereft of glory and form.
0 the marvel of it!
What is this mystery concerning us?
Why have we been delivered to corruption?
Why have we been wedded unto death?
Truly, as it is written,
by the command of God Who giveth the departed rest.
(Funeral Hymns)
Edited by - fred on 07/09/2003 10:25:32 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/10/2003 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | This is one of the potential opportunity costs of spending hours and hours discussing what hell is like. We do not take the time to consider important issues like those contained in the following article on the need for institutional change to ensure the enforcement of campaign finance reform.
Campaign Finance Sponsors Want to End F.E.C.
July 10, 2003
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 1:04 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The lead sponsors of the nation's new
campaign finance law have a new goal: abolishing the
federal agency responsible for enforcing it.
Lawmakers, including Sens. John McCain and Russell
Feingold, proposed legislation Thursday that would replace
the Federal Election Commission with a new agency.
They and campaign finance watchdog groups have long argued
that the FEC -- headed by three Democratic and three
Republican commissioners -- is more concerned with
protecting the major political parties' interests than
enforcing the law.
``The FEC has seemed to go out of its way to interpret the
campaign laws in a way that opens loopholes for evasion of
what Congress intended,'' said Rep. Marty Meehan, D-Mass.
Under the proposal, the FEC would be replaced by a new
agency called the Federal Election Administration,
comprised of three people -- a chairman and two members --
which would eliminate the possibility of deadlocked votes.
The president would appoint the three, with the Senate's
consent; the two members would have to come from different
political parties.
No appointee could come from the FEC, have been a candidate
or officeholder or worked for one, or been employed by a
political party. Enforcement action against suspected
campaign finance law violators would be considered by
administrative law judges.
The FEC, created by Congress more than a quarter-century
ago as one of several post-Watergate reforms, is charged
with enforcing the nation's campaign finance laws,
including limits on campaign contributions.
``It is sad when the agency charged with enforcing the
election laws is jokingly referred to as the 'failure to
enforce commission,''' said Feingold, D-Wis. ``This new
agency will provide a new and better structure for
achieving that goal.''
McCain, R-Ariz., said he and other sponsors do not expect
the current Congress to act on their proposal and expect a
tough road ahead. ``I think a lot of people like the status
quo,'' he said.
McCain, Feingold, Meehan and Rep. Christopher Shays,
R-Conn. -- the four lead sponsors of the law toughening
campaign finance restrictions -- were angered last summer
by new FEC rules they contended created loopholes in the
law. They said then that they would develop a proposal to
overhaul the agency.
Commissioner Scott Thomas, a Democrat, said he is
interested in seeing the legislation.
``I'm very anxious to take a fresh look at whether the
agency could be structured in a better way so we could be
in a better position to apply the law as Congress
intended,'' Thomas said. He was one of two commissioners
who opposed the new rules the law's sponsors criticized as
creating loopholes.
Thomas said one benefit of having three commissioners each
from the two major parties is the assurance that any
commission action is bipartisan.
Critics say the commission's partisan makeup too often
leads to 3-3 deadlocks along party lines that force the FEC
to drop cases against suspected violators.
Campaign finance watchdog groups including Common Cause and
Democracy 21 have proposed replacing the FEC with a new
agency headed by a single administrator with stronger
enforcement power and with a panel of administrative law
judges to consider enforcement cases.
``This agency has a long history of failure,'' Democracy 21
founder Fred Wertheimer said. ``The track record of this
agency is that it is a captured agency, an agency that
responds (to) and reflects the interests of those being
regulated as opposed to the interests of the American
public.''
The legislation comes as the law's sponsors join the
government in defending the law before the Supreme Court,
which is considering several challenges to its
constitutionality.
^------
On the Net:
FEC: http://www.fec.gov/
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Campaign-Finance.html?ex=1058861915&ei=1&en=7362b4b95ce1f709
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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BillZeeBub
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:45 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 7/22/2003 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW:
quote:
Electra, did you just undergo a posting-address change?
Not Electra. I was borrowing Electra's computer and I messed up and left her signed on. This is MEPH.
"Smile. It could be worse." --from a good friend.
Meph,
Please don't take this the wrong way or anything but, are you not a Christian or something? You use that devil emoticon in your signature all the time, and I was just wondering if that's because you're a Satanist or something.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
Mephi is a christian. The idea is that (s)he plays the role of devil's advocate stirring up debate on the board. In the past, someone associated with WHC has always been a mephi. The goal is to temper OVTheism through having someone deliberately taking contrary positions, I think.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 7/23/2003 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress,
Mephi is a christian. The idea is that (s)he plays the role of devil's advocate stirring up debate on the board. In the past, someone associated with WHC has always been a mephi. The goal is to temper OVTheism through having someone deliberately taking contrary positions, I think.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino.
Ohhhhhhh! I get it! That's a neat idea. I was just confused, that's all. I'd still be a little wary of using a devil symbol to represent myself in any capacity, though. But that's just me.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | perhaps the blushing symbol may be more appropriate.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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