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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/20/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The validity of these points are being debated at the following link...http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=097a98e3d150593c36e08467683e3a80&threadid=8877

Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq
taken from
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274
quote:
By Christopher Scheer, AlterNet
June 27, 2003

"The Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons."
– George Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in a speech in Cincinnati.


There is a small somber box that appears in the New York Times every day. Titled simply "Killed in Iraq," it lists the names and military affiliations of those who most recently died on tour of duty. Wednesday's edition listed just one name: Orenthial J. Smith, age 21, of Allendale, South Carolina.


The young, late O.J. Smith was almost certainly named after the legendary running back, Orenthal J. Simpson, before that dashing American hero was charged for a double-murder. Now his namesake has died in far-off Mesopotamia in a noble mission to, as our president put it on March 19, "disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger."


Today, more than three months after Bush's stirring declaration of war and nearly two months since he declared victory, no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons have been found, nor any documentation of their existence, nor any sign they were deployed in the field.


The mainstream press, after an astonishing two years of cowardice, is belatedly drawing attention to the unconscionable level of administrative deception. They seem surprised to find that when it comes to Iraq, the Bush administration isn't prone to the occasional lie of expediency but, in fact, almost never told the truth.


What follows are just the most outrageous and significant of the dozens of outright lies uttered by Bush and his top officials over the past year in what amounts to a systematic campaign to scare the bejeezus out of everybody:


LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." – President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.


FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."


LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." – President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.


FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."


LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." – Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."


FACT: There was and is absolutely zero basis for this statement. CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program.


LIE #4: "[The CIA possesses] solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." – CIA Director George Tenet in a written statement released Oct. 7, 2002 and echoed in that evening's speech by President Bush.


FACT: Intelligence agencies knew of tentative contacts between Saddam and al-Qaeda in the early '90s, but found no proof of a continuing relationship. In other words, by tweaking language, Tenet and Bush spun the intelligence180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what it suggested.


LIE #5: "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." – President Bush, Oct. 7.


FACT: No evidence of this has ever been leaked or produced. Colin Powell told the U.N. this alleged training took place in a camp in northern Iraq. To his great embarrassment, the area he indicated was later revealed to be outside Iraq's control and patrolled by Allied war planes.


LIE #6: "We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles] for missions targeting the United States." – President Bush, Oct. 7.


FACT: Said drones can't fly more than 300 miles, and Iraq is 6,000 miles from the U.S. coastline. Furthermore, Iraq's drone-building program wasn't much more advanced than your average model plane enthusiast. And isn't a "manned aerial vehicle" just a scary way to say "plane"?


LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." – President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.


FACT: Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.


LIE #8: "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets." – Secretary of State Colin Powell, Feb. 5 2003, in remarks to the UN Security Council.


FACT: Putting aside the glaring fact that not one drop of this massive stockpile has been found, as previously reported on AlterNet the United States' own intelligence reports show that these stocks – if they existed – were well past their use-by date and therefore useless as weapon fodder.


LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." – Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.


FACT: Needless to say, no such weapons were found, not to the east, west, south or north, somewhat or otherwise.


LIE #10: "Yes, we found a biological laboratory in Iraq which the UN prohibited." – President Bush in remarks in Poland, published internationally June 1, 2003.


FACT: This was reference to the discovery of two modified truck trailers that the CIA claimed were potential mobile biological weapons lab. But British and American experts – including the State Department's intelligence wing in a report released this week – have since declared this to be untrue. According to the British, and much to Prime Minister Tony Blair's embarrassment, the trailers are actually exactly what Iraq said they were; facilities to fill weather balloons, sold to them by the British themselves.


So, months after the war, we are once again where we started – with plenty of rhetoric and absolutely no proof of this "grave danger" for which O.J. Smith died. The Bush administration is now scrambling to place the blame for its lies on faulty intelligence, when in fact the intelligence was fine; it was their abuse of it that was "faulty."


Rather than apologize for leading us to a preemptive war based on impossibly faulty or shamelessly distorted "intelligence" or offering his resignation, our sly madman in the White House is starting to sound more like that other O.J. Like the man who cheerfully played golf while promising to pursue "the real killers," Bush is now vowing to search for "the true extent of Saddam Hussein's weapons programs, no matter how long it takes."


On the terrible day of the 9/11 attacks, five hours after a hijacked plane slammed into the Pentagon, retired Gen. Wesley Clark received a strange call from someone (he didn't name names) representing the White House position: "I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussein,'" Clark told Meet the Press anchor Tim Russert. "I said, 'But – I'm willing to say it, but what's your evidence?' And I never got any evidence.'" ”




Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/21/2003 5:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You know, during Monicagate, it came out that tobacco company executives had lied to the gov't about the addictiveness and harmfulness of their product. Tobacco companies also helped pay the legal fees of Ken Starr, much of the hullaboo over Clinton's indiscretions were a cover for the tobacco company's indiscretions coming out.

One of my profs as a grad student, an agnostic jew, rightfully pointed to the total silence of the religious right on the tobacco lies as proof of hypocripsy.

We are not deliberating on politics enough and this evinces itself in how we are not autonomous of the Republican Party enough and its economic conservatives that predominate the party.

This has in turn soured our ability to witness to the rest of the world...

And I am sickSick/angryFurious/tiredSad of it.

We can go a million rounds on whether human life begins at conception or whether there is sex in heaven or what-not, but on the pressing issues of today, we don't seem to care.

dlwKnife


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
 
   Posted 8/21/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by DLW

You know, during Monicagate, it came out that tobacco company executives had lied to the gov't about the addictiveness and harmfulness of their product. Tobacco companies also helped pay the legal fees of Ken Starr, much of the hullaboo over Clinton's indiscretions were a cover for the tobacco company's indiscretions coming out.

One of my profs as a grad student, an agnostic jew, rightfully pointed to the total silence of the religious right on the tobacco lies as proof of hypocripsy.

We are not deliberating on politics enough and this evinces itself in how we are not autonomous of the Republican Party enough and its economic conservatives that predominate the party.

This has in turn soured our ability to witness to the rest of the world...

And I am sickSick/angryFurious/tiredSad of it.

We can go a million rounds on whether human life begins at conception or whether there is sex in heaven or what-not, but on the pressing issues of today, we don't seem to care.

dlwKnife



DLW,
It's wonderful that you're so concerned about injustice in the world and how you want to stop it. I think it's admirable. But, I also think that Jesus came ultimately for the purpose of saving souls - not to get tied up in the politics of the world, because inevitably all solutions will fail at some point because of human greed and selfishness. Jesus knew that the only way to make true change in the world was to regenerate souls - not pass laws. The laws of His day, and they were good laws, accomplished diddly because the people were helpless to disobey them. They didn't have it inside of them to obey the laws and therefore help the poor and mistreated. I believe we as Christians should uphold the law, and vote for the correct laws to be put into effect, and even become active in government charity, but beyond that, the real focus should be on the heart of all problems and the root of all injustices, and that is the fallen human condition. The only way to get people to do right, is for them to accept Jesus and His Holy Spirit and He will guide them to do the right thing - and obey the laws you so desperately want to see passed. If the people are reborn, laws wouldn't even need to be passed, because everyone would just do the right thing anyway. Your time and energy would probably be better spent on evangelizing than politicizing.


Tigress Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/21/2003 6:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
But, I also think that Jesus came ultimately for the purpose of saving souls - not to get tied up in the politics of the world, because inevitably all solutions will fail at some point because of human greed and selfishness.


Jesus spent a fair amount of his time critiquing the laws of his community and speaking out against those that abused them.

quote:
Jesus knew that the only way to make true change in the world was to regenerate souls - not pass laws. The laws of His day, and they were good laws, accomplished diddly because the people were helpless to disobey them. They didn't have it inside of them to obey the laws and therefore help the poor and mistreated.


Well given the state of the Roman Empire, early Christians were somewhat restricted in how they could relate to the state.


quote:
I believe we as Christians should uphold the law, and vote for the correct laws to be put into effect, and even become active in government charity, but beyond that, the real focus should be on the heart of all problems and the root of all injustices, and that is the fallen human condition.


Yes, but doing the above requires taking more time to study the law. And time spent doing that will not necessarily take away from our ability to witness to others, and seek to alter their fallen conditions...

quote:
The only way to get people to do right, is for them to accept Jesus and His Holy Spirit and He will guide them to do the right thing - and obey the laws you so desperately want to see passed. If the people are reborn, laws wouldn't even need to be passed, because everyone would just do the right thing anyway. Your time and energy would probably be better spent on evangelizing than politicizing.



If everybody were born again, there still would be a need for laws...

And considering how we have been poisoning the democracy of the US for the past twenty-plus years with our naive political strategies regarding abortion, I think that our ability to form personal acquaintances and relationships with non-Christians that can then lead to sharing about one's faith with them has been strongly impaired by us denigrating the importance of the political.

If Holyness is the complete absence of sin and power tends to corrupt but power corrupts absolutely, then there would be less corruption at large if many of us were somewhat less holy/pure...

dlwSimp_Janitor


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 2:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sick?angry? and tired of it. Then Bush must be doing something good. I must continue to support him...
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 7:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by honorman

Sick?angry? and tired of it. Then Bush must be doing something good. I must continue to support him...



I can always count on you Honordude to make me smile...

Surely, you are overjoyed at the level of acrimony present at our nation's capital?

Our political institutions aren't working. That is why we had the black-out. Issues that need action are being held up too easily by partisan bickering...

We need something to change and Bush has done rather little to unify us as a country. I wd say he has squandered the unity and good-will that came after 9-11.

A real leader could have inspired us to get rid of Saddam without over-playing the WMD card.

Now we are going to demand that others help patrol Iraq, but refuse to give them any say-so through the UN as to how Iraq is governed.

If you lived abroad as a USAmerican, you would care a lot more about how the rest of the world sees the US. You wouldn't need worry about people thinking they can vent their anger/hatred by making an example of a USAmerican living among them...

dlwFurious


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 10:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by honorman

Sick?angry? and tired of it. Then Bush must be doing something good. I must continue to support him...



I can always count on you Honordude to make me smile...

Surely, you are overjoyed at the level of acrimony present at our nation's capital?

Our political institutions aren't working. That is why we had the black-out. Issues that need action are being held up too easily by partisan bickering...

We need something to change and Bush has done rather little to unify us as a country. I wd say he has squandered the unity and good-will that came after 9-11.

A real leader could have inspired us to get rid of Saddam without over-playing the WMD card.

Now we are going to demand that others help patrol Iraq, but refuse to give them any say-so through the UN as to how Iraq is governed.

If you lived abroad as a USAmerican, you would care a lot more about how the rest of the world sees the US. You wouldn't need worry about people thinking they can vent their anger/hatred by making an example of a USAmerican living among them...

dlwFurious



I'm sorry DLW. You make a good point. You're in a unique position because you can see and hear what the rest of the world thinks of us and you probably have to deal with the brunt of the disfavor some have towards us. I guess that helps me to understand more of why you'd like Americans to get more active in their government so as to change the foreign perspective of us.

The thing is, no matter how good the U.S. acts towards the rest of the world, the rest of the world will still find reasons to resent us. It's sort of a no-win situation.

It might help if you try to remember that you're a citizen of a much larger Kingdom - the Kingdom of God, and that your title of "American" is only temperary and ultimately unimportant compared to the fact that you're God's ambassador. I know that's easier said than done, though. As Christians we're all strangers just passin' through a strange territory, and we all have to face tough challenges, and I suppose it becomes twice as difficult when you have to bear the burden of being a rep. of the U.S. on top of it all.


Tigress Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 10:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
thankyou Tigress,

I still think we could do a better job and that for Christians to spend more time trying to understand better what is going on politically and acting with more autonomy from either party then that would improve our foreign policy and send a signal to the rest of the world about the difference our faith makes in our lives...

This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine, let it shine,
let it shine, let it shine...
dlwQuestion


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 10:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
and I might add that "real" political criticism doesn't fall so predictably into ideological boxes...

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 1:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I dislike the prevalent attitude of many Christians that "we're just passing through." It's reminiscient of Marx's comments about religion being the opiate of the people. If you think that this earth just doesn't matter, and think only of the afterlife, then you're likely to tolerate much social injustice. You're willing to tolerate your lot in life as part of an oppressed people (as was the case in russia, and is the case in much of the Muslim world) b/c really, what does it matter.

People in power have historically taken advantage of that attitude to "opiate" the citizenry and thus control them.

Why ARE we even here if the only value of this life is to "do time" until you die? There HAS to be value in this life, there has to be reason for being here, working towards social justice, establishing God's Kingdom here on earth - or else why didn't God just do away with this life to begin with - eliminate the middle man, so to speak- and have us all be in the afterlife from the start?
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 8/22/2003 1:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well you could say there was quite a hang-over from the Social Gospel days...

Politics tends to be rather messy and potentially divisive. The predominant Christian models legitimizing political action were post-millenialist, which entailed us capturing the state and launching the kingdom of God on earth. And "socialist" models like such had earned a bad name... Engaging in Politics meaningfully may have meant compromising and working with several groups on the left, that many "Evangelical Christians" did not get along rather well with.

If all is meant to fail in the pre-milleniallist point of view then politics should play no importance at all next to sharing the gospel with others.

Those are what I can think of. Plus, because of the general "scandal of the evangelical mind", we may be a little too willing to take for granted the political categories of liberal/conservative handed to us. There also were some serious short-comings of the left in their manicheistic approach to politics, in how many reforms failed to validate the legitimacy of businesses in seeking their interests in the state and imposed regulations that did not invite businesses to the table. This is unfortunate since business understand the details and the likely consequences of various regulations better than anyone else much of the time...

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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