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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/26/2001 8:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | evil..ok i believe that, but satan???????
I don't know about God, I believe you would be call ne a 'deist' since I can't seem to get him to answer me ever. AS FOR THE DEVIL OR SATAN NO WAY! Why should I believe in demons or satan? To me that is silly.
I have a forestry degree, so who wants to proooove to me it didn't rain before Noah and his ark...lol If you do, I will believe in the Bible!
yam
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06/18/01 6:37 PM
Short on Time
Yam:
I do not have all the answers, and/or the time to post them. Sorry. I would like to understand your worldview, why call yourself a 'deist'?
Did you ever believe in a personal God?
anonymous one
ps. Hopefully someone can answer your other questions, if not, I'll try again later.
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06/18/01 6:43 PM
RE: evil..ok i believe that, but satan???????
Dear YamIam
Why hang the credibility of the Bible on one obviously unverifiable claim? This seems twisted. Why not first ask, Why think the Bible is a reliable book? We CAN give you good reasons for this. Once this is established, one then has reasons for believing the claims it makes about the history of the world, etc.
The same holds true for demons and Satan. Jesus clearly believed in them, and I have good reasons for thinking that Jesus was the Son of God. Hence I have good reasons for trusting his assessment of demons and Satan.
If you want to know some of my reasons, check out the "Answering Skeptics" section of this web site.
Or, tell me how you could believe that Jesus IS the Son of God and yet disagree with him about Satan and demons.
Best wishes in your search,
Doc
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06/18/01 10:04 PM
RE: evil..ok i believe that, but satan???????
yamIam (For some reason I think of the story Sam I Am Don't know why(?))
Anyway, BOY can I relate with how you can have a Deistic view of God. A few weeks ago I was really starting to view God as very distant and impersonal in our lives (a Deistic God) I was so frustrated with how the world is structured with pain, injustice... and how so often it APPEARS that He doesn't intervene -- this random intervention REALLY frustrated me hence I concluded that He MUST be distant. I finally decided to believe in the bible and what the bible says despite my feelings thus I was brought back to the reality that He IS a personal God (even when I don't FEEL His presence in my life and in the world around me.)
Some years ago I also could have related with not believing in Satan because I struggled with the whole concept of hell -- the Satan thing and hell didn't fit with my view of a loving God. Personally, I believe this had a lot to do with spiritual warfare. You see, Satan is VERY much real and does ALL he can to distort our view of God whenever possible. I really think that the Warfare View that Christus Victor addresses is worth taking the time to read through.
trosie
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06/19/01 8:05 AM
About your name
Is it yam i am as in sam i am
or
is it y am i am as in why am i am?
?
Wislawa as in w i sl aw a
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06/20/01 1:18 AM
RE: About your name
I meant NOTHING by stating that the name yamIam reminded me of the Dr. Seuss book Sam I AM I hope, yamIam, that you realize that(okay, call me scrupulous) Perhaps I end up reading too many children's books? It shows where my mind is at when I'm reading the posts here(LOL) I just was intrigued by the name. Actually the name also makes me think of Popeye "I am what I am."
God loves a childlike heart!!!
trosie
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06/21/01 1:03 AM
hmmmmmmm
Greg, I listened to your Easter tape and heard your reasons. You seem to know what you are talking about and I believe most of what you teach. That is why I am asking YOU, what about the rain thing? If it IS unverifiable, don't you think it a bit odd? You of all people come across as someone who would want to know what's up with petrified wood etc.
yam
ps. Trosie and wislawa, actually you are both wrong It is YAM (as in sweet potato) I am. Because I needed a nickname and I was cooking yams-------how unexciting.
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06/21/01 2:38 AM
RE: hmmmmmmm
yamIam:
I thought Greg's Easter sermon was FANTASTIC TOO! I recommend it to anyone with doubts. The Warfare View that he talks and writes about is interesting as well!
I like yams -- good nickname
trosie
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06/21/01 7:45 PM
RE: hmmmmmmm
Okay Mr. or Mrs. Yam addict:
I remember reading Kuhn's book entitled something like The Nature of Scientific Revolutions (I'm sure that's wrong)... it is a paradigm shifting book. What I found most amazing was how Kuhn acknowledged that scientists always defend their theories in the face of evidence if and when they have other good grounds for holding to their theories.
Indeed, there is no theory about anything of significance that does not stand in tension with some piece or pieces of evidence.
This, I suppose, is what you have to expect in a world of infinite complexity.
So it is in believers view of the Bible. We have good reasons for thinking this is true. Having arrived at this convinction, we must accept that there may be evidence that resists this conclusion.
SO, the question is, why would you think that the world once had no rain in the first place? And the answer, I assume, is the Bible. So then the question becomes, Why think the Bible is true? And the answer, I suppose, is primarily, Because Jesus did, and we have very good reasons for believing that Jesus was the Son of God and couldn't be wrong on this matter.
And THEN the question becomes:
Are your reasons for thinking that there never could have been a time in which it didn't rain greater (more compelling) than your reasons for thinking that Jesus was the Son of God?
OR
Is there a way of modifying your views of either a) the reading of Genesis that causes the problem or b) your understanding of Christology that causes the problem?
I am quite sure that " b" is impossibly problematic, so I'd look at "a" if I were you. (I , for one, am not totally convinced that the flood was universal. I think I have an essay on this in my Answering Skeptics Section). But that, at least, is the logical situation as I see it.
For my two cents, I'm more convinced that Jesus was the Son of God and thus was trustworthy on his view of the Old Testmaent than I am either in a) the Bible requiring me to believe there was a time when it never rained, or b) that even if it never rained once upon a time, that the reasons science now gives for thinking this couldnt' be the case are irrefutiable.
Hope this helps.
Greg
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06/21/01 9:34 PM
thinking about it all
Greg, I appreciate your reply. What do you think, would you say it is the way of a skeptic when every day I wonder why god doesn't meet me where I am at? It seems like such an EASY THING TO DO FOR GOD TO GIVE ME SOMETHING CONCRETE! Why doesn't he? I mean he could just shake me or show up for one visit, or send some miracle into my life so that I could experience him, right? I wonder the same thing about the 'devil', why doesn't he want to SHOW me that he exists? You don't have to answer that, those are my ongoing questions.
Thank you again you are most gracious.
lovin my yamsI am
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06/22/01 12:07 PM
RE: evil..ok i believe that, but satan???????
Hi yamiam:
Is it the verses Genesis 2:5,6 which you find unbelievable?
"and on shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams(or mist) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground"
These verses actually coincide very closely with modern scientific thought about the origin of our oceans. I wil quote Schroeder from "Genesis and the Big Bang".
"Understanding the sources of our water is a lesson in geophysics. For decades following the realization that the earth was at one time molten, it had been assumed that the water of the earth's oceans came from the condensation of steam held in a primeval cloud that surrounded the molten earth. The geophysical constraints on the size of such a cloud are that the upper surface of the cloud had to be hot enough to maintain the water as a vapor and close enough to the earth's surface so that the gravitational force would keep the water vapor from escaping to space. These requirements limit the maximum possible size of the cloud. Calculations made in the early 1950's showed that the amount of water able to be held in such a cloud could account for only a small fraction of th 1,400,000,000 cubic kilometers of water contained in today's oceans.
In 1931, R.W. Garanson had found that water dissolves readily in molten silicate, basaltic, and granite rock.These are large constituents of volcanic lava. Molten rock can contain approximately 5% of it's weight as dissolved water. As the rock solidifies , however, hte water is expelled as steam. The quantity of steam from the volcanoes of a cooling earthcan account for the volume of water in our oceans. Chemical similarities between volcanic steam and ocean water indicate that this steam was very likely the source of our oceans. Here truly, the truth of Genesis 2:6 sprang from the earth."
Your belief in the veracity of scripture is not misplaced!
Blessings
Rob (Still_unsure)
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06/22/01 1:52 PM
RE: thinking about it all
Yammy, Doc has a good response to your question in the website. Check it out: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=512. Blessings, GDG
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06/23/01 3:39 PM
RE: thinking about it all
YamIam, 2 brief responses to the questions in your last posting.
a) Even when God "gives people something concrete" it doesn't seem to do much good. Oh, its cool at first, but it fades with time. I've had several real supernatural experiences - - espe. with the demonic -- and now, when I think back on them, they feel like a dream. They are so out of my ordinary experience that they get filed under "dream "or "fantasy." The effect of miraculous experiences is rarely permanent. The Old Testament testifies to this.
b) I think there has to be what has been called an "epistemic distance" between us and God if our relationship with God is to be of a moral nature, and not necessitated. If God just showed up in the clouds like a big wizard of Oz face, people may (temporarily, see above) drop to their knees, but their response would have all the moral quality of someone putting a gun to their head and saying "say you love me."
A moral choice means that the decision cannot be coerced. Hence, the Bible always sees FAITH as a moral rather than epistemological category. As Pascal said, God gives enough light so people who WANT to beleive have very good grounds for doing so, but enough ambiguity so that people who DON'T WANT to believe can find an out, if they try hard enough. No one is checkmated into the kingdom.
For what its worth.
Doc
ps. As to why the Devil doesn't prove himself to you, it seems to me its far more to his advantage to get the army to disbelieve they have an enemy rather than to prove to them that they have an enemy. The only time Satan and demons are obvious is when they're discovered and are trying to desperately hang onto ground their afraid of loosing (they screech, as in the NT), or when they discern that a tactic of intimidation is better than going stealth.
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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